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ewoods
2015-03-12, 08:26 PM
I'm planning out the next adventure and have a hypothetical DMing question. If the party is assisted by a high-level NPC in killing a villain that would otherwise have been too powerful for them, how would you distribute the villain's loot that would be too high level for the party? Certainly the NPC that assisted would take his cut, but there would still be high-value items left over for the players. The NPC wouldn't just take all items that weren't "level appropriate" for the party, would he? You could give the villain less loot, but why would a villain that is higher level than the characters be less equipped than they are?

The same hypothetical could come up in a number of different situations, actually. The party comes across an abandoned city that's recently been leveled. There would no doubt to loot among the rubble that isn't appropriate for their level. Or they think of some crazy way to actually defeat a powerful enemy that they reasonably should have ran from. So basically, in situations where there is loot that is higher level than the party should have access to, what do you do?

GentlemanVoodoo
2015-03-12, 08:51 PM
It depends on how high level you are talking about. If only 1 or 2 levels, then I would say distribute only a few items that could be used universally by the party. If more than this, you more than likely are talking about a macguffin of some sorts and only one should be given. But that depends on how restrictive of the power gaming you are going for.

As to the NPC, normally I tend to do it were there the NPC's benefit is something none materialist. An example could be the NPC helps out because said villain was a rival of some sort. By helping out the party, the NPC removes the rival and gains whatever benefit you assign from this. If it must be materialistic, the item obtain by an NPC should serve some aspect to advance the story or conclude the story arc you are doing.

Flickerdart
2015-03-12, 08:51 PM
A high level NPC is both wealthy and wise. He would keep the overly powerful items as "too dangerous for the PCs to handle for now" but should have no trouble compensating them with lower-level gear that he doesn't need himself anymore. This works best when the villain carries super-evil artifacts, and the NPC can give the PCs good or at least neutral items in exchange.

As for the city, a recent battle site attracts all kinds of scavenger. Nasty scavengers with teeth and swords and spells, who are also raring to have a go at the spoils.

There are always ways of salvaging this sort of situation of you sit down and think about what would happen in a logically consistent world.

Boost
2015-03-12, 09:12 PM
A high level NPC is both wealthy and wise. He would keep the overly powerful items as "too dangerous for the PCs to handle for now"

If I were a PC, I'd call shenanigans on any DM who tried to pull this one on me. Because you'd have a hard time convincing me that giving my level 5 character a +5 sword is "too dangerous." I'd call it the DM wanting to fix the wealth levels by making the NPC do something out of character.

As for how to balance treasure:

1. Just give the villain less treasure than he should have for his level. Unless your PCs are being really picky, they probably won't see the difference between the villain's appropriate wealth for their level vs one that is a few levels lower, as long as the PCs are still getting decent loot that they're happy with.
2. Give them the right amount of treasure, but then have a few encounters with little to no treasure to balance things out. For example, say I were putting the PCs up against a high-level NPC druid. On their way to fight him, they'd likely fight a bunch of animals and plants that wouldn't be expected to HAVE any treasure. Then they get a crapload of loot from the boss, and it evens out.
3. Have the PCs fight a Nightwalker, Rust Monster, or some other creature that can destroy items.

veti
2015-03-12, 09:25 PM
If the players really do come up with a way to beat the villain fair and square, without NPC intervention, then they should get the loot, level-appropriateness be damned. They earned it. (And you should consider it a lesson in "not overpowering your villain with broken gear".) Of course, some of the more overpowered things may be unusable - it's not hard to come up with reasons why they're either impossible, or just horribly dangerous, for PCs to use.

If the PCs intervene to rescue an NPC from a powerful villain, then:

If the NPC is completely altruistic and good, then he'll Wisely withhold loot that the PCs are Not Yet Ready for. (Optionally, he could give them the opportunity to pick it up later, either as a reward, or just an arbitrary plot point. Also optionally, he might not completely trust the PCs to handle such power. Whatever, it's not hard to justify.)
If the NPC is less than completely altruistic and good, he'll keep the good stuff for himself and the PCs will never even see it. (I assume he'll take charge of the scene the moment the combat is over.)


Conversely, if an NPC has to intervene to save the PC's butts, I'd take that as a sign that either you or they have blundered. Either way, the NPC would take most of the loot to compensate himself for the inconvenience they've put him to.

In the case of a levelled city - in general, whatever levelled it will have looted it pretty damn' thoroughly already. ("Pre-looted for your convenience" is a well known catchphrase in this context.) If that's not the case - maybe it was trashed by an earthquake, and the PCs are the first on the scene - then retrieving the loot from the ruins is a major exercise - a dungeon-delve in its own right, potentially taking several weeks - and will bring them into conflict with many others trying to do the same thing.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-12, 09:27 PM
If it's likely to be a recurring support NPC then sharing items isn't terrible -- after all, those items will be used in support of the party. But if it's just a one shot thing, the PC's could "buy out" his share of the treasure and compensate the NPC monetarily. Take the gold piece value of the item(s) out of the PC's cut of the treasure.

If the NPC is a henchman he might not be due any extra compensation. They would just pay him his flat rate, unless a share of the treasure was an agreed part of his salary.

Flickerdart
2015-03-12, 09:27 PM
If I were a PC, I'd call shenanigans on any DM who tried to pull this one on me. Because you'd have a hard time convincing me that giving my level 5 character a +5 sword is "too dangerous."
Three days later, a passing gang of 10th level bandits sees your super-awesome sword, beats you up, takes the sword, and uses it to murder the local mayor's guard and prop themselves up as the new tyrant rulers of the region. If you had not taken the sword, they would have no interest in your crappy items, and the people of Hypothetica would have been safe.

Boost
2015-03-12, 09:29 PM
Three days later, a passing gang of 10th level bandits sees your super-awesome sword, beats you up, takes the sword, and uses it to murder the local mayor's guard and prop themselves up as the new tyrant rulers of the region. If you had not taken the sword, they would have no interest in your crappy items, and the people of Hypothetica would have been safe.

Except this is so convoluted a sequence of events that it's the equivalent of "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) It's something that would only happen because the DM is pulling the strings.

Thrudd
2015-03-12, 10:35 PM
I'm planning out the next adventure and have a hypothetical DMing question. If the party is assisted by a high-level NPC in killing a villain that would otherwise have been too powerful for them, how would you distribute the villain's loot that would be too high level for the party? Certainly the NPC that assisted would take his cut, but there would still be high-value items left over for the players. The NPC wouldn't just take all items that weren't "level appropriate" for the party, would he? You could give the villain less loot, but why would a villain that is higher level than the characters be less equipped than they are?

The same hypothetical could come up in a number of different situations, actually. The party comes across an abandoned city that's recently been leveled. There would no doubt to loot among the rubble that isn't appropriate for their level. Or they think of some crazy way to actually defeat a powerful enemy that they reasonably should have ran from. So basically, in situations where there is loot that is higher level than the party should have access to, what do you do?

Don't use loot that is higher level than the party should have without equally high leveled challenges. Don't contrive a scenario where a higher level npc is accompanying them on an adventure or is required to defeat an encounter.

If they defeat a creature that normally would be way beyond their level, then they deserve whatever they get.

Battlebooze
2015-03-13, 12:44 AM
Once upon a time, we used to use a deck of cards and roleplay it out. One card was given out per lot of treasure.

High card got first pick and so on. We divided the money up into competitive chunks if possible and each chunk was a lot of treasure. Trading of cards was allowed.

I liked that kind of game in a game.

Battlebooze
2015-03-13, 12:47 AM
I guess I should have read the original post, not just the title!

The answer is, don't give out anything you don't feel the players should have. Once they get their hands on it, they will go nuts trying to keep it. Giving them items you intend to take away will just make them resent the situation.

Firest Kathon
2015-03-13, 07:24 AM
The question that occurs to me is, as Thrudd alluded as well, is why the PCs have an encounter where they require an NPC to win... if the opponent is so powerful, why accompany the NPC at all, they can obviously do it themselves.

Lord Torath
2015-03-13, 11:07 AM
The question that occurs to me is, as Thrudd alluded as well, is why the PCs have an encounter where they require an NPC to win... if the opponent is so powerful, why accompany the NPC at all, they can obviously do it themselves.This is also the first thing that occurred to me as well. Most players do not enjoy having a high-level NPC come in and save their butts. It can work, but most of the time the PCs resent the NPC. I'd say a plausible situation could be where a Super Powerful Wizard hires the PCs to protect him from minions while he mystically engages the Evil-Demigod-Bad-Guy. SPW must keep all his spells to himself so he will have all his power available when he confronts The two UberNPCs Face off and freeze in place while the PCs keep hordes of minions from geeking the good guy. If the PCs succeed, their guy wins, but if they fail, the good guy loses too. This way, even though SPW is more powerful than they are, his success in completely dependent on the PCs' success, and the PCs' success is in no way dependent on SPW's success.

In this case, the EDBG's loot is all either destroyed by SPW, or is mystical/astral in nature, and completely unusable by regular mortals - including the PCs. Note that in this scenario, neither of the UberNPCs get a lot of cool descriptions in the combat. They don't get to show off cool magic items or combat abilities. All their gear and effort is directed at the invisible contest between them. The spotlight stays on the PCs and their foes.

goto124
2015-03-13, 11:20 AM
or is mystical/astral in nature, and completely unusable by regular mortals - including the PCs.

'You Identify the item. It's anti-good, anti-neutral, and anti-evil'

'Then how am I supposed to use this?'

'Don't.'

Flickerdart
2015-03-13, 11:29 AM
Except this is so convoluted a sequence of events that it's the equivalent of "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) It's something that would only happen because the DM is pulling the strings.
Most of that was a joke, but if you're not strong enough to protect valuable equipment, people will kill you for it. Hell, that's what adventurers do.

Maglubiyet
2015-03-13, 02:45 PM
The question that occurs to me is, as Thrudd alluded as well, is why the PCs have an encounter where they require an NPC to win... if the opponent is so powerful, why accompany the NPC at all, they can obviously do it themselves.

That gives me a campaign idea - PC's are just apprentices and henchmen. All the action is them sitting on the sidelines watching high-powered fights and negotiations. They have to make rolls for shining boots and cooking meals.

Every now and then they're asked to walk down a hallway to make sure it's safe. Think it'll fly?

Lord Torath
2015-03-16, 12:07 PM
That gives me a campaign idea - PC's are just apprentices and henchmen. All the action is them sitting on the sidelines watching high-powered fights and negotiations. They have to make rolls for shining boots and cooking meals.

Every now and then they're asked to walk down a hallway to make sure it's safe. Think it'll fly?Like a brick! :smallamused: