[3.5] Does anything actually prevent a werewolf getting the Vampire template?

[Mr Adventurer]

I mean, as long as you were a werewolf first, then you'd still be a humanoid and eligible for the Vampire template. Doesn't work if you are a vampire first because the lycanthrope template doesn't work on undead.

[AnonymousPepper]

If the lycanthrope template doesn't work on undead, then becoming an undead through acquiring the vampire template would make you no longer qualify for the lycanthrope template, thus removing it and replacing it with the undead type and vampire template. I think.

[Aharon]

The DM not liking you stealing the Underworld Plot :smallbiggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

If the lycanthrope template doesn't work on undead, then becoming an undead through acquiring the vampire template would make you no longer qualify for the lycanthrope template, thus removing it and replacing it with the undead type and vampire template. I think.

That's not how templates work. Prestige classes work that way, sure, but templates only require that you qualify for them when you take them. Want proof? The vampire template can only be applied to a humanoid/monstrous humanoid; under the same logic that a werewolf who becomes a vampire no longer qualifies to be a werewolf, they also no longer qualify to become a vampire, and revert to being a human.

There's tons of templates that change your type like that; the only way they make sense is if you only have to qualify for them when you take the template.

EDIT: There's probably a written rule somewhere on applying templates that proves this one way or another, but this is the only way that makes logical sense. Besides, the enmity between werewolves and vampires is mostly a thing of modern fiction, because pitting two powerful monsters of the night against each other makes for a good story. It is, however, entirely a result of things like the internet giving us access to so much information: werewolves did not exist in classic vampiric lore, and vampires did not exist in classic lycan lore. The two weren't considered "at war" or "(im)mortal enemies" until modern monster mythology. Maybe it started when somebody said "wouldn't it be cool if Dracula fought the Wolf-man?", and it just spiraled from there, with the end result being stuff like "you can't be a werewolf/vampire in Skyrim", and of course all the Twilight stuff.

BOTTOM LINE:

There's no RAW reason you can't. There's no RAI reason you can't. That said, ask your DM: if, in his world, vampires and werewolves are mortal enemies, you better have a damn convincing backstory; similarly, if your DM forbids template stacking, this combo is right out.

Also, these templates aren't exactly very optimal, alone or together. Just saying.

[sage20500]

That's not how templates work. Prestige classes work that way, sure, but templates only require that you qualify for them when you take them. Want proof? The vampire template can only be applied to a humanoid/monstrous humanoid; under the same logic that a werewolf who becomes a vampire no longer qualifies to be a werewolf, they also no longer qualify to become a vampire, and revert to being a human.

There's tons of templates that change your type like that; the only way they make sense is if you only have to qualify for them when you take the template.

EDIT: There's probably a written rule somewhere on applying templates that proves this one way or another, but this is the only way that makes logical sense. Besides, the enmity between werewolves and vampires is mostly a thing of modern fiction, because pitting two powerful monsters of the night against each other makes for a good story. It is, however, entirely a result of things like the internet giving us access to so much information: werewolves did not exist in classic vampiric lore, and vampires did not exist in classic lycan lore. The two weren't considered "at war" or "(im)mortal enemies" until modern monster mythology. Maybe it started when somebody said "wouldn't it be cool if Dracula fought the Wolf-man?", and it just spiraled from there, with the end result being stuff like "you can't be a werewolf/vampire in Skyrim", and of course all the Twilight stuff.

BOTTOM LINE:

There's no RAW reason you can't. There's no RAI reason you can't. That said, ask your DM: if, in his world, vampires and werewolves are mortal enemies, you better have a damn convincing backstory; similarly, if your DM forbids template stacking, this combo is right out.

Also, these templates aren't exactly very optimal, alone or together. Just saying.

slightly off topic here, but actually really the only reason why you couldn't legitly become a werewolf and a vampire in skyrim at the same time was actually because each "condition" gives you 100% immunity to disease in the vanila base game, which since they are considered diseases having one would immediately cure you of the other X). Also I'm pretty sure in skyrim at least for the player character vampires are not even considered undead... unless restoration spells heal undead as well.... its been a few years since I've played....

[Jack_Simth]

EDIT: There's probably a written rule somewhere on applying templates that proves this one way or another, but this is the only way that makes logical sense.Turns out there is, and you're right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingMoreThanOneTemplate)
In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.
Theoretically, you could get a human infected with:
Wereboar
Dire Wereboar
Wererat (Dire rat)
Weretiger
Werewolf
Werewolf (Dire wolf)
(insert any other werecreatures you like)
and finally Werebear (for LG shenanigans, of course).

This human would never level up again, but the character would get:
+2 to natural armor per infection (+14 for just the base MMI listings)
A rather lot of animal hit dice (6 bear, 3 boar, 7 dire boar, 1 rat, 6 tiger, 2 wolf, 6 dire wolf, plus any additional ones you find; 31 for the base MMI listings)
+2 Wisdom per infection (so +14 with just the base MMI listings)
Some racial skill bonuses
Scent
DR 5/Silver (assuming none of the levels are inherited - you may want to start with at least one inherited version, though).

Such a creature's child would be particularly powerful (Hybrid all the forms!) but only as a melee brute (massive Str/Dex/Con, and tons of hit dice) or maybe a minor skillmonkey (with enough hit dice, even cross-class ranks are impressive), due to the lack of spellcasting.

Such a creature is, however, something a determined person could manufacture without magic. Of course, the fort save would be a problem after a while, so you'll need a willing participant.

[JyP]

Theoretically, you could get a human infected with:
Wereboar
Dire Wereboar
Wererat (Dire rat)
Weretiger
Werewolf
Werewolf (Dire wolf)
(insert any other werecreatures you like)
and finally Werebear (for LG shenanigans, of course).

This human would never level up again, but the character would get:
+2 to natural armor per infection (+14 for just the base MMI listings)
A rather lot of animal hit dice (6 bear, 3 boar, 7 dire boar, 1 rat, 6 tiger, 2 wolf, 6 dire wolf, plus any additional ones you find; 31 for the base MMI listings)
And with Savage Progression rules on Wizards' site, at the lowest you have an infected lycanthrope with 2 LA, but no HD.

any carnivorous or omnivorous animal can be used as a basis with rules in SRD to create a lycanthrope - as long as size is one step from the humanoid or giant form : Human + Dire Tiger for 16 HD ? Giant Were Tyrannosaurus + 18 HD...

[Mr Adventurer]

Awesome. I actually was thinking for NPCs rather than PCs. A vampire weredirebat would be pretty cool.

Battle Titans are still animals, right? ;)

[JyP]

Yeah but fluff-wise I wonder if were battle titans can exist :smallsmile: On the other hand, there's nothing about templates there - a were Horrid Dire Wolf somewhere ? Or a were Legendary Tiger ? :smallbiggrin:

[unseenmage]

That's not how templates work. Prestige classes work that way, sure, but templates only require that you qualify for them when you take them. Want proof? The vampire template can only be applied to a humanoid/monstrous humanoid; under the same logic that a werewolf who becomes a vampire no longer qualifies to be a werewolf, they also no longer qualify to become a vampire, and revert to being a human.

There's tons of templates that change your type like that; the only way they make sense is if you only have to qualify for them when you take the template.

EDIT: There's probably a written rule somewhere on applying templates that proves this one way or another, but this is the only way that makes logical sense. Besides, the enmity between werewolves and vampires is mostly a thing of modern fiction, because pitting two powerful monsters of the night against each other makes for a good story. It is, however, entirely a result of things like the internet giving us access to so much information: werewolves did not exist in classic vampiric lore, and vampires did not exist in classic lycan lore. The two weren't considered "at war" or "(im)mortal enemies" until modern monster mythology. Maybe it started when somebody said "wouldn't it be cool if Dracula fought the Wolf-man?", and it just spiraled from there, with the end result being stuff like "you can't be a werewolf/vampire in Skyrim", and of course all the Twilight stuff.

BOTTOM LINE:

There's no RAW reason you can't. There's no RAI reason you can't. That said, ask your DM: if, in his world, vampires and werewolves are mortal enemies, you better have a damn convincing backstory; similarly, if your DM forbids template stacking, this combo is right out.

Also, these templates aren't exactly very optimal, alone or together. Just saying.

Additionally that's not how Spells work either.

The spell Greater Humanoid Essence makes a Construct into a Humanoid for the duration. Allows you to hit said Construct with Telepathic Bond and/or Mineralize Warrior. Both of the subsequent spells will still function on the Construct-turned-Humanoid when the duration of Greater Humanoid Essence wears off.

Why? Because, if creatures lost spell effects based on what type they were then Greater Humanoid Essence would cease to function as soon as it began to function as it targets Constructs and it makes them into not-Constructs.

Edit:

Turns out there is, and you're right (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingMoreThanOneTemplate)
Theoretically, you could get a human infected with:
Wereboar
Dire Wereboar
Wererat (Dire rat)
Weretiger
Werewolf
Werewolf (Dire wolf)
(insert any other werecreatures you like)
and finally Werebear (for LG shenanigans, of course).

This human would never level up again, but the character would get:
+2 to natural armor per infection (+14 for just the base MMI listings)
A rather lot of animal hit dice (6 bear, 3 boar, 7 dire boar, 1 rat, 6 tiger, 2 wolf, 6 dire wolf, plus any additional ones you find; 31 for the base MMI listings)
+2 Wisdom per infection (so +14 with just the base MMI listings)
Some racial skill bonuses
Scent
DR 5/Silver (assuming none of the levels are inherited - you may want to start with at least one inherited version, though).

Such a creature's child would be particularly powerful (Hybrid all the forms!) but only as a melee brute (massive Str/Dex/Con, and tons of hit dice) or maybe a minor skillmonkey (with enough hit dice, even cross-class ranks are impressive), due to the lack of spellcasting.

Such a creature is, however, something a determined person could manufacture without magic. Of course, the fort save would be a problem after a while, so you'll need a willing participant.

Hey, does this mean that using the Monstrous Lycnthrope (http://greenronin.com/blog/2014/10/30/monster_week_monstrous_lycanth/) Template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary you could be a Lycanthropic Every-Creature Were Every-Creature?!!?

[Jack_Simth]

Hey, does this mean that using the Monstrous Lycnthrope (http://greenronin.com/blog/2014/10/30/monster_week_monstrous_lycanth/) Template in Green Ronin's Advanced Bestiary you could be a Lycanthropic Every-Creature Were Every-Creature?!!?Ignoring the little issue that it's 3rd party, that those rules are intended for DM use rather than player use, and that the sort of optimization inherent in that is likely to net you a DMG to the head, yes.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm thinking a Weretiger, Swarmform Vampire, Warlock 20 would be an awesome-fun BBEG for a low-op game. Hmm, might stat that up.

[Urpriest]

Awesome. I actually was thinking for NPCs rather than PCs. A vampire weredirebat would be pretty cool.

Battle Titans are still animals, right? ;)

Were-Battletitans make awesome NPCs. 6 CR for 36 HD? Yes, please.

Note: Do not actually do this. Your players will be extremely unhappy.

[Mr Adventurer]

Woah, just went back and re-read Alternate Form: it sucks! All your kit falls off!

[Blackhawk748]

Woah, just went back and re-read Alternate Form: it sucks! All your kit falls off!

Im pretty sure thats only when you go into animal form, i see no reason why your chain shirt would fall off going hybrid.

[Mr Adventurer]

Cool, though I meant for the Vampire powers - whether the native bat/wolf forms or the replacement Swarmform ones...

[Blackhawk748]

Cool, though I meant for the Vampire powers - whether the native bat/wolf forms or the replacement Swarmform ones...

Huh, weird. I would figure their clothes and armor would just blend into their swarm. Theres probably a feat for that.

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh, weird. I would figure their clothes and armor would just blend into their swarm. Theres probably a feat for that.

Swarm form is still Alternate Form - which dumps your non-fitting stuff...

[Bad Wolf]

It would work. And on an entirely unrelated topic, here's a picture. http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131206011108/vampirediaries/images/8/8c/The-Originals-klaus-35248346-600-900.jpg