Armor types for druid animal companion?

[Hiro Quester]

My druid is approaching level 7. Going to upgrade my Animal Companion to a tiger (it has to be tiger for character/flavor reasons).

I'm probably going to get him some barding, since his AC is not great. (Starts at 14.) What is the best armor for a tiger's barding?

Are there limits on materials for the AC's armor the way there are for druids? That is, does it have to be leather or hide, or ironwood?

Tiger has high strength and only 15 dex (+2). So Max dex isn't so much of an issue. So perhaps metal mail (e.g. Mithral chainmail) would be suitable?

And if Mithral chain is possible for a druid's mount, how do you calculate the price? Barding for a large animal costs four times as much as for a humanoid. Mithril medium armor costs 4000 extra. So is the price (150 x 4) + 4000= 4600, or (150 + 4000) x 4 =16,600?

[Bronk]

Are there limits on materials for the AC's armor the way there are for druids? That is, does it have to be leather or hide, or ironwood?

Tiger has high strength and only 15 dex (+2). So Max dex isn't so much of an issue. So perhaps metal mail (e.g. Mithral chainmail) would be suitable?

And if Mithral chain is possible for a druid's mount, how do you calculate the price? Barding for a large animal costs four times as much as for a humanoid. Mithril medium armor costs 4000 extra. So is the price (150 x 4) + 4000= 4600, or (150 + 4000) x 4 =16,600?

Animal Companions don't have any limits for what materials their armor can be made from, so you're good to go with mithral chainmail barding.

The cost modifier is a one time expense that doesn't specify size category of the armor. You'd start with the price of the barding (600 gold) then add the modifier, so your first calculation (4600 gold) would be your price.

[Flickerdart]

Quite frankly, Chain Shirt is the best value for your money. Compare:

Mithral chainmail: +5 AC, max DEX +4, -1 ACP, 4750gp (base 600, masterwork 150, mithral 4000)
+2 chain shirt: +6 AC, max DEX +4, 0 ACP, 4550gp (base 400, masterwork 150, magic 4000)

The mithral chain's only advantage is that it weighs 5 pounds less.

[Hiro Quester]

Quite frankly, Chain Shirt is the best value for your money. Compare:

Mithral chainmail: +5 AC, max DEX +4, -1 ACP, 4750gp (base 600, masterwork 150, mithral 4000)
+2 chain shirt: +6 AC, max DEX +4, 0 ACP, 4550gp (base 400, masterwork 150, magic 4000)

The mithral chain's only advantage is that it weighs 5 pounds less.

Of course. Thanks for pointing that out, Flickerdart. Thanks also, Bronk, for clarifying pricing.

Chain shirt, then.

Chain shirt barding is weird to imagine on a tiger, but how it looks isn't as important as how it works, mechanically.

I'm just going to add barding to my mini figure so it looks like this:
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/205320_ED7Im9sdGSiys4_6pSG0Fdch3.jpg

But I'll add a leather military saddle just in case DM says druid can't ride long distances on chain barding.

[Jack_Simth]

Quite frankly, Chain Shirt is the best value for your money. Compare:

Mithral chainmail: +5 AC, max DEX +4, -1 ACP, 4750gp (base 600, masterwork 150, mithral 4000)
+2 chain shirt: +6 AC, max DEX +4, 0 ACP, 4550gp (base 400, masterwork 150, magic 4000)

The mithral chain's only advantage is that it weighs 5 pounds less.
... the chain shirt has a base ACP of -2, and masterwork only reduces that by 1. Likewise, Chainmail has an ACP of 5, and Mithral only reduces it by 2 (so you're better off with the 200 gp more expensive breastplate - plus, of course, that matches the picture better). Oh yes, and the cost of Masterwork is subsumed in the cost of Mithral. Ignoring that, though, it still has an advantage: It's easier to improve.

Consider two levels from now, when the OP wants to upgrade the barding:
+2 Mithral Breastplate: +7 AC, max DEX +5, -1 ACP, 8800gp (base 800, mithral 4,000, +2 4,000)
+3 chain shirt: +7 AC, max DEX +4, -1 ACP, 16550gp (base 400, masterwork 150, +4 16000)

Consider several levels from now, when the OP wants to upgrade the barding to the maximum AC and doesn't much care about the just over 4k price difference:
+5 Mithral Breastplate: +10 AC, max DEX +5, -1 ACP, 29800gp (base 800, mithral 4,000, +5 25,000)
+5 chain shirt: +9 AC, max DEX +4, -1 ACP, 25550gp (base 400, masterwork 150, +5 25000)

Mind you: by default animals are not proficient with any armor - which means the ACP applies to attack rolls - so you'll want to see about negating said ACP: the Hellforged armor template from the DMG II, perhaps (1k for -1 ACP and a few other things, including +1 AC when adjacent to an ally... you know, like the Druid).

[Hiro Quester]

Oh. Armor check penalty. That matters. The chain shirt would have -2ACP without mithral.

I've never had to worry about proficiency, so I forgot it applies to attack rolls. That -2 to attacks will matter a lot.

Mithril decreases acp by 3. So a mithril breastplate would have -1 ACP, but hellforged would eliminate that. Fortunately though we are playing close-to-core, DMG2 is an allowed book (also PHB2 and Stormwrack).

Being cheaper to improve does make a difference in the long run. Thanks for that.

So hellforged Mithral breastplate. With possibility of enhancement later.

[Bronk]

One RAW way of getting armor proficiency for your animal is to rear it yourself as a Warbeast.

[Urpriest]

One RAW way of getting armor proficiency for your animal is to rear it yourself as a Warbeast.

This is extremely controversial, since the "rearing a warbeast" rules are most likely about how to rear a creature that is already a warbeast, not how to rear a creature such that it becomes a warbeast. If you haven't run into this before I can point you to a discussion, it's a bit longwinded of an argument to get into in this thread. But in practice, it depends on which way your DM reads the warbeast rules, after reading the relevant discussion.

[Hiro Quester]

Raising it myself.... That's worth considering. But that might take some finessing. We're travelling on a ship. I'll talk to our DM about that.

Hellforged is looking difficult to acquire, since tiger barding would recto be a custom job. And perhaps out of character for a lawful neutral druid to acquire.

Are there other ways of further reducing ACP besides hellforged?

[Bronk]

Raising it myself.... That's worth considering. But that might take some finessing. We're travelling on a ship. I'll talk to our DM about that.

Being on a ship might actually make it easier to find the in game time to dedicate to the special warbeast training (which is very clear about being able to apply it to any base animal). The real trick would be to get your DM to allow it in the first place by allowing you to take on a tiger cub as an animal companion. You'd basically be riding Battlecat, if that helps. Very nice.

[Flickerdart]

... the chain shirt has a base ACP of -2, and masterwork only reduces that by 1. Likewise, Chainmail has an ACP of 5, and Mithral only reduces it by 2
Mithral reduces ACP by 3, with Masterwork an additional 1 (the costs, but not the effects, of Masterwork are subsumed).

[Jack_Simth]

Mithral reduces ACP by 3, with Masterwork an additional 1 (the costs, but not the effects, of Masterwork are subsumed).
"by" "to" sometimes I get words confused when I'm typing.

Hmm.

I can see that reading of Mithral, not one I've ever considered, but I can see that reading.

Hellforged is looking difficult to acquire, since tiger barding would recto be a custom job. And perhaps out of character for a lawful neutral druid to acquire.

Are there other ways of further reducing ACP besides hellforged?
Not really. Most things I've run across focus on reducing the ASF (Twilight, Thistledown, Githcraft, Feycraft, Mithral). The only ACP reductions I've seen are Masterwork, Hellforged, and Mithral.

Note, though, that a LE Devil is only one step away from your alignment.

[Hiro Quester]

Rearing a cat might actually work. I'm spending much of the day in leopard Panther wildshape right now. Being able to speak with another big cat would make training easier. Less need for speak with animals.

Oh. But warbeast is from MM2, which is not in our books. We can go slightly outside our books (core plus PHB2, DMG2, and Stormwrack), but only for a very good reason. DM is already worried about my Druid being slightly overpowered for our group (some members have made less than optimized character choices). Adding extra muscle to my AC might be a bit much.

I'll talk to DM about training a tiger for war. Perhaps I can convince him that I could train it to have armor proficiency instead of one of the other tricks it would learn.

Flickerdart, can you cite a rule that says the mithril bonus is in addition to, rather than subsumed by, the masterwork qualities? I have seen that debate before, but not a resolution that resulted in a rule I could show DM.

[Hiro Quester]

"
Note, though, that a LE Devil is only one step away from your alignment.

Yeah. But I'm running with a group that's on the good side of mercenary. Buying metal armor is bad enough for a druid. I feel like I should be more ideologically opposed to it. Mithral is at least elegantly crafted, beautifully worked, shiny and light metal, so I could justify that.

But a metal armor with an aura of "innate vileness" that is made using "noxious chemicals" and feels heavier than normal(though normal mithral), seems out of character. The lawful side of my lawful neutral alignment would probably think this is too undruidic.

[Flickerdart]

Flickerdart, can you cite a rule that says the mithril bonus is in addition to, rather than subsumed by, the masterwork qualities? I have seen that debate before, but not a resolution that resulted in a rule I could show DM.
On the contrary, I would ask you to find a rule that the reduction from mithral and reduction from masterwork do not stack. The only reason the costs are included is because the entry says so explicitly, but there is no mention of an alternative rule like that for the other aspects.

[Curmudgeon]

Mithral reduces ACP by 3, with Masterwork an additional 1 (the costs, but not the effects, of Masterwork are subsumed).
With Mithral construction armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0) inclusive of the masterwork adjustment, because Mithral armor is always masterwork. That is, it is not sensible to talk about mithral's ACP adjustment not including the masterwork quality factor, because that separation of adjustments is not physically possible by RAW.

[Flickerdart]

With Mithral construction armor check penalties are lessened by 3 (to a minimum of 0) inclusive of the masterwork adjustment, because Mithral armor is always masterwork. That is, it is not sensible to talk about mithral's ACP adjustment not including the masterwork quality factor, because that separation of adjustments is not physically possible by RAW.
What is or is not sensible to talk about is not for you to decide.

[Hiro Quester]

I have seem this debate many times, about whether mithril includes the reduction of ACP from masterwork. Obviously, it's possible to interpret(and justify RAI) both ways. It's a debate about who has burden of proof. Reduced by 3 until proven otherwise, or 3 plus 1 more until proven otherwise.

And since it seems that WOTC didn't provide proof either way, what will matter is my DM's interpretation. And it looks like this is up to him.

I'll run it by him.

[Curmudgeon]

What is or is not sensible to talk about is not for you to decide.
OK, then let's see you make sense out of separating the masterwork component from a material which is never other than masterwork.

[Dimers]

@Flickerdart: The DMG lists three specific mithral armors, all of which* have an ACP 3 points more favorable than a plain item, not 4 points. *EDIT: Sorry, two of which, not all three -- the third only had -2 ACP to begin with.

@OP: Darkleaf armor has the effect you want for cheaper than mithral. It's on Arms&Equip page 19. Vulnerable to wood effects but not metal effects. And since it's made of darkwood and alchemy, it should work fine with your druidy principles.

From the "rules don't say you can't" department -- Arms&Equip also has an add-on called dastana, extra little bits to put on top of certain light armors for a stacking +1 AC. Sure, why not tiger dastana, too. Masterwork dastana have no ACP and cost 175.

Dastana plus chain shirt has the same AC as breastplate, so if your DM lets you take those, that's the best way to save money. Otherwise, if you want that extra +1 AC and don't mind paying for it, hellforged masterwork darkleaf mithral breastplate has 0 ACP and costs (1000+150+2250+200 = ) 3500gp before enchantments. Hellforged also gives +1 more AC whenever the tiger is next to an ally!

[Hiro Quester]

@Flickerdart: The DMG lists three specific mithral armors, all of which* have an ACP 3 points more favorable than a plain item, not 4 points. *EDIT: Sorry, two of which, not all three -- the third only had -2 ACP to begin with.

@OP: Darkleaf armor has the effect you want for cheaper than mithral. It's on Arms&Equip page 19. Vulnerable to wood effects but not metal effects. And since it's made of darkwood and alchemy, it should work fine with your druidy principles.

From the "rules don't say you can't" department -- Arms&Equip also has an add-on called dastana, extra little bits to put on top of certain light armors for a stacking +1 AC. Sure, why not tiger dastana, too. Masterwork dastana have no ACP and cost 175.

Dastana plus chain shirt has the same AC as breastplate, so if your DM lets you take those, that's the best way to save money. Otherwise, if you want that extra +1 AC and don't mind paying for it, hellforged masterwork darkleaf mithral breastplate has 0 ACP and costs (1000+150+2250+200 = ) 3500gp before enchantments. Hellforged also gives +1 more AC whenever the tiger is next to an ally!

Thanks for the suggestion of darkleaf, Dimers. Dastana seem to be bracers that add another +1 to AC. That seems suitable for a tiger, like the picture. And I won't be getting other bracers for a while.

A&E guide isn't exactly in our books, but it might appeal to DM as Druidic enough to justify. Esp. Since Ironwood is available, and my gnome Druid has ranks and racial bonus in craft: alchemy.

I'll try that out. The same un-enhanced AC as breastplate, but no ACP.

Edit: For what it's worth, my DM just responded, that this is the rule he takes to matter:


Weapons or armors fashioned from mithral are always master-work items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.

There is no such thing as MW mithral, adding to the benefits of regular mithral. Mithril is always already MW. So that's RAI in our world.

Further edit: Dastana have an ACP if you don't have proficiency with light armor. And my DM says that animals can't be trained to be proficient with armor.

So it will need to be an armor with no ACP.

Mithril or darkleaf chain shirt it is, then.

[Urpriest]

Being on a ship might actually make it easier to find the in game time to dedicate to the special warbeast training (which is very clear about being able to apply it to any base animal). The real trick would be to get your DM to allow it in the first place by allowing you to take on a tiger cub as an animal companion. You'd basically be riding Battlecat, if that helps. Very nice.

I'm not going to derail things much further, but I have to ask: are you saying this because you haven't read the arguments on the other side, or because you believe that statement is a refutation of those arguments? Because it sounds more like the former than the latter.

For the OP: if animals can't be trained to be proficient with armor, how about the animal just picking up the feat itself when it has a spare feat slot? Spending a feat on it won't be the end of the world.

[Hiro Quester]

For the OP: if animals can't be trained to be proficient with armor, how about the animal just picking up the feat itself when it has a spare feat slot? Spending a feat on it won't be the end of the world.

Animal companions can get other feats? I thought that they just get the ones on this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) (share spells, evasion, devotion, multiattack, improved evasion).

Where is the rule about alternate feats?

[nyjastul69]

That information is explained in the text of the section labeled 'bonus HD'. The normal rules for leveling up a monster are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#animalType) if the creature is an of the animal type.

[Jack_Simth]

Animal companions can get other feats? I thought that they just get the ones on this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#theDruidsAnimalCompanion) (share spells, evasion, devotion, multiattack, improved evasion).

Where is the rule about alternate feats?

Those aren't feats (if they were, it would be totally broken for the party mundanes to take Share Spells!). Those are Druid Bonus Features. They also get skills, too, but with the common animal companion Intelligence score, that's just 1 skill point per hit die.

[Dimers]

Dastana have an ACP if you don't have proficiency with light armor. And my DM says that animals can't be trained to be proficient with armor.

No prob -- making the dastana masterwork drops the -1 ACP to -0. So no remaining penalty to skills or attacks. :smallsmile:

[Bronk]

I'm not going to derail things much further, but I have to ask: are you saying this because you haven't read the arguments on the other side, or because you believe that statement is a refutation of those arguments? Because it sounds more like the former than the latter.

For the OP: if animals can't be trained to be proficient with armor, how about the animal just picking up the feat itself when it has a spare feat slot? Spending a feat on it won't be the end of the world.

Well, it has been a while since I've seen online discussions about warbeasts, so it's entirely possible there's some crucial piece of info I'm missing, but the template clearly states it can be applied to pretty much any base animal:

""Warbeast" is a template that can be added to any Medium-size or larger animal, beast, or vermin (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A warbeast uses all the base creature's attributes and special abilities except as noted here."

It then says the only exceptions (aside from the size limitations) are animals that are already considered 'war' creatures, like the warhorse, and finishes up by telling you the rules for training up both domesticated and wild animals. Wild animals aren't specially bred, so there you have it.

Maybe you could post a link to the discussions you were talking about?

To me the tricky part is getting a tiger cub for your animal companion, because the rules state that the animal you get is 'typical for its kind'. That isn't really elaborated upon, but it's normally taken to mean, at the very least, 'no templates' when you get it, and also 'exactly as stated in the monster manual entry'. A tiger cub could be 'typical' for its age while still being an otherwise average tiger, but as with all things in a game, it's up to the DM. Although... there's nothing stopping the OP (aside from, again, DM permission) from trying to obtain a tiger cub before he hits level 7 and training it up as a warbeast so that it would be ready to trade out at level 7 or later. A druid can trade out AC's at any time without penalty.

Hiro Quester: Having your tiger take the relevant armor proficiency feat is a great idea, but you'll have to wait until you're level 10 due to the -6 druid level modifier on the tiger.

I know it's expensive, but considering your tiger will eventually get more dex, you might want to save up for a mithral version of 'celestial armor'. The ACP would be 0, and the max dex is +8...

[Hiro Quester]

Hmmm... Being "trained for war" can bestow armor proficiency, it seems.



Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.

Seems to imply that training for war does bestow some armor proficiency.

And this seems different from the Warbeast template (not in our books, since it's in M2 as I recall).

Training for war is never explicitly explained, but seems equivalent to the kind of combat riding detailed under Handle Animal. Ill talk to DM about that.

But a darkleaf chain shirt is looking like the best option.

[Urpriest]

Well, it has been a while since I've seen online discussions about warbeasts, so it's entirely possible there's some crucial piece of info I'm missing, but the template clearly states it can be applied to pretty much any base animal:

""Warbeast" is a template that can be added to any Medium-size or larger animal, beast, or vermin (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A warbeast uses all the base creature's attributes and special abilities except as noted here."

It then says the only exceptions (aside from the size limitations) are animals that are already considered 'war' creatures, like the warhorse, and finishes up by telling you the rules for training up both domesticated and wild animals. Wild animals aren't specially bred, so there you have it.

Maybe you could post a link to the discussions you were talking about?

Yeah, it has nothing to do with which creatures the template can be applied to. After all, Fiendish can be applied to any living creature, but you still can't turn a preexisting creature into a Fiendish one, it's an inherited template.

This post summarizes the argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12371560&postcount=27). Essentially, the "training a warbeast" section explains how to give a warbeast the Combative Mount ability, not how to turn a non-warbeast into a warbeast.

[Bronk]

Yeah, it has nothing to do with which creatures the template can be applied to. After all, Fiendish can be applied to any living creature, but you still can't turn a preexisting creature into a Fiendish one, it's an inherited template.

This post summarizes the argument (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12371560&postcount=27). Essentially, the "training a warbeast" section explains how to give a warbeast the Combative Mount ability, not how to turn a non-warbeast into a warbeast.

I see where you're coming from with your argument now, but it looks like it ignores the plainly stated text in favor of a poorly worded portion about vermin at the end. Taking the paragraph as one unit, it's pretty clear it's a rule that vermin warbeasts don't get combative riding.

I do see that one of the two sentences of fluff text mentions 'bred', but I guess they should have thought about that before listing the rules for training up random wild and domesticated animals on the same page.

[Jack_Simth]

Being cheaper to improve does make a difference in the long run. Thanks for that.You're welcome. It's the same basic reason I don't generally advise three +2 AC items over one +5 AC item.

Sure, if you have a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor (8k), a Ring of Force Shield (8.5k), and a Ring of Protection +2 (8K) for half the cost of that Ring of Protection+5... but if you thereafter find a +4 Amulet of Natural Armor in a pile of loot, your AC only goes up by 2 rather than 4. Sure, the person who's distributing the bonuses can sell the old amulet and upgrade something else... but that takes time, and doesn't happen while you're still in the dungeon.

If you don't expect the game to run very long, by all means: Split it up. If you expect crafting times to be irrelevant for one reason or another by all means: Split it up. If you expect the DM to randomly destroy / steal a small number of items, by all means: Split it up. Otherwise? Go for single, large items.

[Hiro Quester]

DM has said that it's also possible to retrain a feat for an animal trained for war. (I get the impression that this is based on a Pathfinder erratum.)

He had ruled tha training for war can't grant a bonus feat. But an animal trained for war (e.g. combat riding) can also retrain one of its existing feats for light armor proficiency.

So I could retrain a tiger's alertness feat for light armor proficiency. Then darkleaf breastplate would be possible without the -1ACP affecting hit rolls.

[Bronk]

DM has said that it's also possible to retrain a feat for an animal trained for war. (I get the impression that this is based on a Pathfinder erratum.)

He had ruled tha training for war can't grant a bonus feat. But an animal trained for war (e.g. combat riding) can also retrain one of its existing feats for light armor proficiency.

So I could retrain a tiger's alertness feat for light armor proficiency. Then darkleaf breastplate would be possible without the -1ACP affecting hit rolls.

I'm glad everything is working out! Your DM seems pretty cool.

[Flickerdart]

You're welcome. It's the same basic reason I don't generally advise three +2 AC items over one +5 AC item.

Sure, if you have a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor (8k), a Ring of Force Shield (8.5k), and a Ring of Protection +2 (8K) for half the cost of that Ring of Protection+5... but if you thereafter find a +4 Amulet of Natural Armor in a pile of loot, your AC only goes up by 2 rather than 4. Sure, the person who's distributing the bonuses can sell the old amulet and upgrade something else... but that takes time, and doesn't happen while you're still in the dungeon.

If you don't expect the game to run very long, by all means: Split it up. If you expect crafting times to be irrelevant for one reason or another by all means: Split it up. If you expect the DM to randomly destroy / steal a small number of items, by all means: Split it up. Otherwise? Go for single, large items.
Or you can give your old +2 amulet to another party member. Everybody wins.

[Jack_Simth]

Or you can give your old +2 amulet to another party member. Everybody wins.
Assuming everyone else isn't doing the same thing, sure.

[Hiro Quester]

Another reason for one big item is that we don't have wilding clasps. (Core-ish game). So fewer items to get a party member to put on after wildshaping is easier.

So my periapt of wisdom enhancement has been added to the necklace of natural attacks. This currently is the only thing I wear in wildshape. And I'll prob just keep enhancing that.

I also took a level of Monk instead of wearing monks belt or barding, and partly to make my character not too overpowered compared with others in the party. So I have enough natural attacks to make that item worthwhile. Plus we got it from s monk we defeated, so half price per party loot rules we use.)