Deathmaster, Dragon magazine class

[Verumsui]

I've been looking at the Death Master base class in the dragon magazine compendium, and I wanted to know if anyone here has ever taken a serious look at it. I'm wondering if it is balanced/if you can help balance it better. Any ideas?

[Blackhawk748]

I've been looking at the Death Master base class in the dragon magazine compendium, and I wanted to know if anyone here has ever taken a serious look at it. I'm wondering if it is balanced/if you can help balance it better. Any ideas?

Its ok, not great but ok. Personally i think Dread Necro does what Death Master try to do better.

[Void Bovine]

I like it if only to take pale master.....lots of undead to control taking it to 20 just to be a lich seems bad lot of things make quick work of undead...

[Ephemeral_Being]

You know. It's not bad. I'd honestly consider this balanced. I've spent the last hour reading the class over, and trying to find a real problem with it. But I can't. It seems like a solid Tier-4 class. The fluff material is good, the spell list is thematically correct, and it doesn't seem overpowered in any way.

If I was going to make one change, I would add the "Cure Wounds" spells to the spell list. It might not make sense thematically, but I think it would help to make the class more useful to a party. That's the one complaint that I really have with it. In a four-man party, a Deathmaster is the odd man out. He's a sub-par Wizard who cannot be a blaster by nature of his spell list. He can't fill in for the Rogue, or Cleric unless the entire party are Undead (which, would actually be awesome). And so that leaves him as the front-line fighter, but arguably worse than other more melee-oriented classes classes would be. I mean, if you had a Bard or Druid in the fourth slot of a Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party, they can fill in with secondary healing in addition to tanking hits (with their companion, in the case of the Druid). But the Deathmaster just can't do that.

With access to Cure spells, he gets better. Not to the level of a Cleric or Druid, but I would say closer to that of a Bard.

Then again, I've got very little experience with this stuff. This is what came to mind when I looked at the class.

[danzibr]

You know. It's not bad. I'd honestly consider this balanced. I've spent the last hour reading the class over, and trying to find a real problem with it. But I can't. It seems like a solid Tier-4 class. The fluff material is good, the spell list is thematically correct, and it doesn't seem overpowered in any way.

If I was going to make one change, I would add the "Cure Wounds" spells to the spell list. It might not make sense thematically, but I think it would help to make the class more useful to a party. That's the one complaint that I really have with it. In a four-man party, a Deathmaster is the odd man out. He's a sub-par Wizard who cannot be a blaster by nature of his spell list. He can't fill in for the Rogue, or Cleric unless the entire party are Undead (which, would actually be awesome). And so that leaves him as the front-line fighter, but arguably worse than other more melee-oriented classes classes would be. I mean, if you had a Bard or Druid in the fourth slot of a Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party, they can fill in with secondary healing in addition to tanking hits (with their companion, in the case of the Druid). But the Deathmaster just can't do that.

With access to Cure spells, he gets better. Not to the level of a Cleric or Druid, but I would say closer to that of a Bard.

Then again, I've got very little experience with this stuff. This is what came to mind when I looked at the class.
Ya know, weren't healing spells related to necromancy spells in an earlier edition?

[Ephemeral_Being]

Ya know, weren't healing spells related to necromancy spells in an earlier edition?

I... had no idea. But yeah. Here's the quote.


Cure Light Wounds (Necromantic) Reversible
Level: 1 Components: V, S Range: Touch Casting Time: 5 segments Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Area of Effect: Character touched
Explanation/Description: Upon laying his or her hand upon a creature, the cleric causes from 1 to 8 hit points of wound or other injury damage to the creature's body to be healed. This healing will not affect creatures without corporeal bodies, nor will it cure wounds of creatures not living or those which can be harmed only by iron, silver, and/or magical weapons. Its reverse, Cause Light Wounds, operates in the same manner; and if a person is avoiding this touch, a melee combat "to hit" die is rolled to determine if the cleric's hand strikes the opponent and causes such a wound. Note that cured wounds are permanent only insofar as the creature does not sustain further damage, and that caused wounds will heal - or can be cured - just as any normal injury will. Caused light wounds are 1 to 8 hit points of damage.

So, there you go. It sort of DOES work.

[WhamBamSam]

You know. It's not bad. I'd honestly consider this balanced. I've spent the last hour reading the class over, and trying to find a real problem with it. But I can't. It seems like a solid Tier-4 class. The fluff material is good, the spell list is thematically correct, and it doesn't seem overpowered in any way.

If I was going to make one change, I would add the "Cure Wounds" spells to the spell list. It might not make sense thematically, but I think it would help to make the class more useful to a party. That's the one complaint that I really have with it. In a four-man party, a Deathmaster is the odd man out. He's a sub-par Wizard who cannot be a blaster by nature of his spell list. He can't fill in for the Rogue, or Cleric unless the entire party are Undead (which, would actually be awesome). And so that leaves him as the front-line fighter, but arguably worse than other more melee-oriented classes classes would be. I mean, if you had a Bard or Druid in the fourth slot of a Rogue/Cleric/Wizard party, they can fill in with secondary healing in addition to tanking hits (with their companion, in the case of the Druid). But the Deathmaster just can't do that.

With access to Cure spells, he gets better. Not to the level of a Cleric or Druid, but I would say closer to that of a Bard.

Then again, I've got very little experience with this stuff. This is what came to mind when I looked at the class.Death Master is absolutely not T4. I would argue that it's not even T3, but somewhere in T2. Its spell list is small, but its spell list is strong. It contains a lot of the big ticket items off of the Wizard list, and has a few noteworthy things of its own (like earlier access to Animate Dead+Desecrate than anything else in the game, with rebuking on top of that, at level 3 there's really nothing short of a Greenbound Druid that can measure up to that level of minionmancy).

Speaking of Dread Necromancer, it's true that it might serve better in the niche that one would immediately think of for the Death Master (past level 6 or so at least), but there are certainly good uses for Death Master.

[The Viscount]

haven't played it, but I've given it a decent examination. It's decent. The list is a bit small, though still more versatile than the poor Dread Necromancer. Being restricted to only PHB spells hurts, but you can manage. The Undead Minion doesn't quit work as some abilities require you to touch it and some minions are incorporeal. The minion likely won't affect play that much, since it's pretty much just undead you could rebuke or animate. You will have less than the DN's horde of undead, but it will be plenty. Overall I'd probably say top of Tier 3, maybe at the weaker end of 2. You still get shapechange. I'm not going to pretend like average BA does anything, but you are the only arcane full caster with it , so bonus I guess.

[WhamBamSam]

haven't played it, but I've given it a decent examination. It's decent. The list is a bit small, though still more versatile than the poor Dread Necromancer. Being restricted to only PHB spells hurts, but you can manage. The Undead Minion doesn't quit work as some abilities require you to touch it and some minions are incorporeal. The minion likely won't affect play that much, since it's pretty much just undead you could rebuke or animate. You will have less than the DN's horde of undead, but it will be plenty. Overall I'd probably say top of Tier 3, maybe at the weaker end of 2. You still get shapechange. I'm not going to pretend like average BA does anything, but you are the only arcane full caster with it , so bonus I guess.For splat spells, there's always the Corrupt spells, which Death Master gets access to by virtue of prepared casting. Not sure if there's much to really get excited about there, at least if you aren't going Anima Mage and healing the ability damage with Naberius, but they do exist.

Medium BAB helps more at lower levels, which is arguably where the Death Master is strongest relative to other classes (seriously, at 3-5, they're pretty wonderful). It also can help if you're looking to get into gishy PrCs. It also might be semi-noteworthy if you want to use Travel Devotion with your rebuke pool to move and full attack. Death Masters are missing a lot of the big-ticket gish buff spells, but there's good stuff to be found on their list.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Death Master is absolutely not T4. I would argue that it's not even T3, but somewhere in T2. Its spell list is small, but its spell list is strong. It contains a lot of the big ticket items off of the Wizard list, and has a few noteworthy things of its own (like earlier access to Animate Dead+Desecrate than anything else in the game, with rebuking on top of that, at level 3 there's really nothing short of a Greenbound Druid that can measure up to that level of minionmancy).

Speaking of Dread Necromancer, it's true that it might serve better in the niche that one would immediately think of for the Death Master (past level 6 or so at least), but there are certainly good uses for Death Master.

I disagree. If you compare the Dread Necromancer to the Sorcerer, he's just not as flexible. Yes, he can change his spell loadout daily. But his spell list is something like 1/4th that of a Wizard/Sorc. He doesn't get access to Invisibility, or any buffs for the party. He doesn't get color spray to use at low levels. The only thing he can do is keep undead minions. He doesn't get Wish or Miracle. He doesn't even get Summon Monster. Most of the cheesy, infinite loop abilities are off limits to a Death Master. That pretty much locks him out of T2, in my mind.

At best, I would put him on-level with a Bard. And like I said before, I would argue a Bard is BETTER. The versatility of skill points and the better skill list are pitted against Divine Metamagic. And he doesn't have buffs to utilize them. He could persist things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, making one target useless for an entire day. But how often are you really going to need to do that?

I could agree T3 is probably a better fit than T4, but he's NOT as powerful as a Sorcerer or Psion.

[WhamBamSam]

I disagree. If you compare the Dread Necromancer to the Sorcerer, he's just not as flexible. Yes, he can change his spell loadout daily. But his spell list is something like 1/4th that of a Wizard/Sorc. He doesn't get access to Invisibility, or any buffs for the party. He doesn't get color spray to use at low levels. The only thing he can do is keep undead minions. He doesn't get Wish or Miracle. He doesn't even get Summon Monster. Most of the cheesy, infinite loop abilities are off limits to a Death Master. That pretty much locks him out of T2, in my mind.Technically, he does get Wish, because he can Shapechange into a Zodar, but whatever. The tier system is concerned with levels 6-15 anyway.

You might be right about him missing out on most of the big time cheese in the mid-levels that shifts things from a tactical to a strategic scale and makes a class T2. No Polymorph (though Alter Self and Magic Jar are present) or Teleport (though Word of Recall and Shadow Walk are there), and there's a general dearth of buffing. Death Masters do have a fair bit of good BFC to compliment their supply of undead beatsticks.


At best, I would put him on-level with a Bard. And like I said before, I would argue a Bard is BETTER. The versatility of skill points and the better skill list are pitted against Divine Metamagic. And he doesn't have buffs to utilize them. He could persist things like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, making one target useless for an entire day. But how often are you really going to need to do that?

I could agree T3 is probably a better fit than T4, but he's NOT as powerful as a Sorcerer or Psion.Well, not quite. Even with Southern Magician, you can't DMM Arcane spells. Naenhoon Illumian is possible though, for a few free Quickens each day (though with Alter Self sticking out on his small spell list, exotic typing might be worth more). It'd be more accurate to say it's the versatility of skills and Bardic Music optimization against the Death Master's ability to make use of spell list expansion, use metamagic by whatever means (even without DMM, he's got more options than a Bard), and access a few potent higher level spells through full casting progression.

Still, I suppose its a fairer comparison than I might have thought. That said, the fact that our reference points are the likes of Bard, Dread Necromancer, and Factotum indicates that Death Master is at least high T3.

[Void Bovine]

Again pale master really ups its usefulness considering the lack of animate dead.....you would end up with 3 sources of undead animated, commanded/controlled and rebuked plus the minion and cohort kinda nice since all of them can be used at the same time

[WhamBamSam]

Again pale master really ups its usefulness considering the lack of animate dead.....you would end up with 3 sources of undead animated, commanded/controlled and rebuked plus the minion and cohort kinda nice since all of them can be used at the same timeDeath Master doesn't lack Animate Dead. They get it earlier than everyone else. It's a 2nd level spell for them.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Well, not quite. Even with Southern Magician, you can't DMM Arcane spells. Naenhoon Illumian is possible though, for a few free Quickens each day (though with Alter Self sticking out on his small spell list, exotic typing might be worth more). It'd be more accurate to say it's the versatility of skills and Bardic Music optimization against the Death Master's ability to make use of spell list expansion, use metamagic by whatever means (even without DMM, he's got more options than a Bard), and access a few potent higher level spells through full casting progression.

Still, I suppose its a fairer comparison than I might have thought. That said, the fact that our reference points are the likes of Bard, Dread Necromancer, and Factotum indicates that Death Master is at least high T3.

You can't DMM Arcane Magic? I... didn't know that. I guess it makes sense. But the feat description doesn't require you apply the Metamagic feat to a divine spell. Do you mind telling me where you found that?

[Blackhawk748]

You can't DMM Arcane Magic? I... didn't know that. I guess it makes sense. But the feat description doesn't require you apply the Metamagic feat to a divine spell. Do you mind telling me where you found that?

Its a thing and its lame. In its defense it was meant to stop people from dipping one level of cleric and using it to metamagic Arcane spells. Personally i feel that if you get it innately in your class you should be able to do so. So Death Masters and Dread Necros would be able to.

[WhamBamSam]

You can't DMM Arcane Magic? I... didn't know that. I guess it makes sense. But the feat description doesn't require you apply the Metamagic feat to a divine spell. Do you mind telling me where you found that?I think it's in the errata for Complete Divine. It's been a while since I read it, or any of the relevant arguments, but as I recall the prevailing view is that you can't even get around the restriction with Southern Magician, though as Death Masters are prepared casters, you might be able to circumvent it with Alternate Spell Source (probably qualifying via Southern Magician), if Dragon Magazine beyond the Compendium is allowed.

[Chronos]

Personally, I would call it Tier 2B, though nobody else seems to have adopted my idea of splitting up Tier 2. Then again, though, I would also consider it on the whole inferior to the Tier 3 dread necromancer.

[Void Bovine]

Death Master doesn't lack Animate Dead. They get it earlier than everyone else. It's a 2nd level spell for them.

I missed that wow kinda cool...

[atemu1234]

It's T4, maybe T3 if you do it right.