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SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-10, 03:51 AM
Overpowered is the point.

(Please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, I'm writing this in 6pt. font. ^^)
So work continues on Project Paragon. For those of you who may of missed the last topic we were discussing mage vs. Fighter potentioal. Details on that (short but sweet) topic are in the first few posts.

Today’s subject is a series of base Statistic bonuses. I’m sure everyone here is familiar with the bonus system and how it currently works so I don’t feel the need to run a refresher and won’t be explaining general references to them. Without further to say... here we go.

We’ll start with the easy ones.
Wisdom: Your wisdom bonus x10 is the percentage of extra experience you gain from each encounter. Applies to all exp gains, bonus applied to toals.
Constitution: Player gains fast healing at their Con bonus.

Intelligence: Spell Resistance at your Bonus is a definate, but I’m wondering even with Feats that would increase this number (x2, x3, x4, etc) that this isn’t powerful enough to rank up there with Con and (especially) Wisdom. Maybe extra spell damage? Saving throws? Your opinions are greatly appreciated.

Strength: I’m thinking that Strength, because it already has mainstream applications that make it vital for some classes and useless for other makes me want to think this one through before I just slap on more fighter usefulness. Damage reduction maybe, increased hold and carry, faster movespeeds, feats of herculean heroism, etc. The point is to make this a less one-sided statistic while still keeping in the Project’s spirit. It can’t be too good specifically for fighters, but it still needs to be ridiculous

Dexterity: I’m at a loss for Dexterity. Its already pretty good for anyone and everyone who wants to drop the points in it, so I really don’t know how to make this one better.

Charisma: The exact opposite of Dex, Cha is often the dump stat for... everyone . Despite the exceptions, this is by and large an underappreciated stat, so ways of improving it should be easy right? Wrong. Most of the other uses for Charisma would be far too overpowered even for the Project. (Control, compulsion, convince, etc. can be abused easily and readily) I honestly have no ideas for this one.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=The Previous Question=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This is a quick joting down of an idea for Project Paragon, which may or may not appear on the GitP forums.

Just a quick little question on balancing issues. What's more powerful...

A 20th level fighter than can make 25 attacks with his full attack action once per day.

A 20th level wizard who can cast four spells a round.

InaVegt
2007-04-10, 08:54 AM
The 20th level wizard, 4 really good chances to completely incapacitate your enemies is better than 25 chances to deal damage to your opponent.

Neko
2007-04-10, 09:31 AM
depends on the spells too I suppose

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-10, 05:02 PM
Any spells, including the level 9s.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-04-10, 05:09 PM
The Wizard is underoptimized. He should be able to cast at least 5 spells per round at lv. 20 with time stop. And I'm sorry, but that wizard will walk on top of that fighter 20 times over.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-10, 05:20 PM
^^; No, I mean cast 4 spells unaided. As in, casting spells equal to the number of attacks you would get with a full attack action.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 05:29 PM
Still the wizard.

Fireball.Man.Guy.
2007-04-10, 06:01 PM
Stop trying to make this fighter work. The wizard wins.l Always. Even with 1 spell/round, the wizard is
BATMAN!

And batman dosen't lose.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 06:21 PM
And batman dosen't lose.

Balance issues solved! While the wizard is Batman, the fighter is Robin!

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-10, 06:23 PM
Uh... four spells per round unaided would kill any fighter, ever. Yes, even if the fighter had complete spell immunity, three feats per level, and the ability to take thirty full-round actions each round.

Da Beast
2007-04-10, 07:28 PM
Giving the fighter more attacks won't help much. The fighter's problem is that he's unable to do anything other than deal direct damage, not that he can't be built to do enough of it (though it is kind of insult to injury that casters can beat fighters at that too).

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-10, 08:47 PM
*Is appreciating the banter.* ^^

So... I'm curious why ya'll thought I was talking about them dueling. =P I'm just trying to figure out which is more powerful.

So I assume that giving the Wizard extra spells and feats would just break this further yes?

The fighter IS in fact getting a feat every level, and has more abilities beyond the massive number of attacks per round. One of them is auto-crit for every attack in a round, the other two I'm still kicking around.

Wizard people, would you rather the multi-casting ability or having one ridiculously powerful spell (and one spell only) that you could cast all the time, no matter what, that ignored things like anti-magic, SR, and the laws of D&D physics in general?

Legoman
2007-04-10, 09:24 PM
Giving the fighter more attacks won't help much. The fighter's problem is that he's unable to do anything other than deal direct damage, not that he can't be built to do enough of it (though it is kind of insult to injury that casters can beat fighters at that too).

Most world record damage builds, minus hulking hurler types, are chargers.

Uberchargers.

Hell, even with three feats, a fighter type can be a pretty serious threat. Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Power Attack. Throw in Karmic Strike, and some nice +save bonuses, and it's happy time.

Wizards have to be handled pretty delicately by pretty well-studied players to break the game like is assumed to be so common here. Fighters, once built properly, tend to be more 'fault-resistant.'

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-10, 09:29 PM
Wow, I think I get what you're trying to do. Cool.

Project Paragon, huh?

Da Beast
2007-04-10, 09:36 PM
The highest damage build I've ever seen was a wizard who used some ability similar to the red wizard's circle magic to kick out thousands of fire damage a round. I have heard of the uber melee builds; the hulking hurler, the iajutsu planet cutter, and pun-pun sort of qualifies; but it was my understanding that all of those required very liberal and self serving interpretations of the rules while the wizard was strictly by the RAW.

Edit: and the best ubercharger builds I've seen we're clerics. How does that speak to the fighter's power?

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-10, 09:36 PM
Yeah, Project Paragon. Once I've nailed down the class ideas I'll start posting the monsters for balancing.

I guess at this point its really going to be an exercise in making the rest of the classes match the sort of magnificent ownage the casters will be providing.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-16, 02:16 PM
This is a bump to getting the topic flowing again now that I've updated with another question.

Everything from this post up was in reponse to this question.

-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This is a quick joting down of an idea for Project Paragon, which may or may not appear on the GitP forums.

Just a quick little question on balancing issues. What's more powerful...

A 20th level fighter than can make 25 attacks with his full attack action once per day.

A 20th level wizard who can cast four spells a round.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-16, 02:20 PM
Could you please de-update, and edit your new question into your latest post? It's really confusing as-is.

I've edited my response into my first post in this thread.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-16, 02:25 PM
How is it confusing? >_> Just read the first post and click the reply button if you want to chime in...

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-16, 02:28 PM
Bump now that I've replied to your question. You'll find the location of my response near the top of this thread.

... and I'm probably coming off as a bit of a d***. Um, on to the commenting!
Move-speeds should probably be under Dexterity. Maybe take a look at the skill tricks on the WotC website? Maybe Dexterity checks to take move-equivalent actions as swift (or even immediate) actions?

For Int... maybe detect thoughts with a Sense Motive roll? Mage hand as an extraordinary ability with a successful Int check?

Actually, that last ought to go under Cha...

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-16, 04:50 PM
Yes, you are coming across as a bit of a ****. =P I don't mind though.

I like to edit the first post when I make changes to the topic, instead of creating a new one all together. I'm still operating under the Project Paragon header, so I'd like to keep it all here.

I like the idea of Dex being move-speed and immediate action movement. =3 That's a good one.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-16, 05:20 PM
For Charisma: the Diplomacy skill can break the game in a decidedly unfun way at any power level. What are your feelings about Intimidate? Or not even intimidate; just things like "move 15 feet to the east NOW"? Like the voice of Susan in some of Terry Pratchett's books; when she says to do something, you do it.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-16, 05:28 PM
Ooooh, a force of personality bonus. I like the thought of that.

And not just move over there, but don't move, battle-cries, let me pass, etc.

The reverse Jedi Mind trick! xD

Hmmm... Maybe for the Strength bonus... bonus # times per day you can use/throw/pickup/etc. an object bonus/4 size categories larger than yourself.

Eh... but that would spiral out of control. Maybe do it by weight, not size category.

>_< Of course, this still makes Strength pretty melee class specific, despite the fact that a mage may want to drop-kick a wagon out of the way or something. Maybe a blocking sort of benefit from physical attacks.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-16, 07:35 PM
How about being able to add your strength score to a single roll, with the # per day being equal to your strength modifier? Maybe twice your strength score to a single roll? Hmm, it might be a bad idea if that could be added to damage (even at this power level, 40+ damage with a level 1 half-orc seems overpowered).

Also, on Wisdom: as it is, it seems like it would lead to level gaps that aren't subject to the normal "lower-level-characters level up faster" measure...

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-16, 09:18 PM
Wisdom I like, it stays for other reasons I'm not going to mention (yet).

I do like the strength score idea, though x2 seems a bit... much. ^^;

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-17, 11:25 AM
It seems like most abilities could have a passive power and an active power.

STR's active power: "feats of herculean strength."
Passive power: damage reduction?

DEX's active power: swift/immediate move-equivalent actions.
Passive power: move-speed increases.

CON's active power: none (yet?)
Passive power: fast healing.

INT's active power: none (yet?)
Passive power: spell resistance.

WIS's active power: none
Passive power: increased XP.

CHA's active power: the Voice.
Passive power: none (yet?)

Of course, I'm just throwing ideas around here. :smallsmile:

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-17, 10:29 PM
Nono, I like it. Gives everyone plenty to do and that's the whole point of the Project.

I'm... apprehensive of making Str's passive ability DR. (Its been suggested by a couple of other people) They're already getting Fast Healing... arg, maybe. I'll mull it over some more. Maybe this is where the Barb gets his in.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-17, 11:33 PM
Hmm... INT and WIS seem kind of switched; normally, INT is used for learning while WIS is used to shake off magical effects. Perhaps their abilities could be swapped?

I'm kind of leery about supplementing XP gain with an active power, but I thought of something for WIS: give up a (standard? move-equivalent?) action to gain blindsense # (that is, a character with +3 WIS could sense things up to 15 feet away) for the duration of your turn (or possibly one round), usable # times per day.
It would make sneaking harder, but I think DEX's move-action > swift-action thing could help with that.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-04-18, 01:01 AM
Lol, wisdom is definately the key to experience. You can be the most intelligent man in the world and have no common sense, but that common sense is what's getting you through life.

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-19, 01:59 AM
I guess I can understand that, but it isn't really supported by the RAW (as far as I can tell; I'm certainly not going to insist that my interpretation is the only correct one). My full viewpoint is spoiler'd below.
Intelligence, according to the PHB, "determines how well your character learns and reasons," and "represents one's ability to analyze information." It determines how many things you can learn, and how well you can do them (represented by skills in vanilla D&D).
Wisdom, on the other hand, "describes a character's willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition ... wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one's surrroundings."

While it is true that without a character without Wisdom could not perceive the raw data involved in determining how one could be more effective, Intelligence would be (I would say) more directly involved in taking that raw data (that is, the base experience granted by overcoming encounters) and filtering it, running through barely-conscious mental replays of the encounter to figure out where a character has room for improvement! On the other hand, a character's skill at learning and retaining information (Intelligence) doesn't seem to have anything to do with resisting spells, since the RAW says that Wisdom is applied to "Will saving throws (for negating the effect of Charm Person and other spells)." You would be entirely correct in saying that this applies only to enchantments and illusions. However, it seems that you plan to expand the mind's role in resisting spells; why not leave it to Wisdom, as logic (and simplicity) would suggest?

Eugh. I sound faux-erudite.On to slightly more productive ground! It seems like CON is a naturally passive ability in vanilla D&D, because it basically only determines how much damage you can take; on the other hand, CHA seems like a naturally active ability (since it determines how powerfully you can impress your will on the world around you). Furthermore, both fast healing and the Voice (assuming that the Voice is confirmed) seem like they could be very powerful. You could pass on their complementary powers entirely...
Less productively: scratch my blindsense-related suggestion, since it really only relates to a small part of the Wisdom ability (the Spot skill).