Belkar Metagaming

[Atomburster]

Is it possible that Belkar is capable of/is metagaming within the comic? Specifically, after his whole spirit quest with Shojo and realizing that he could 'cheat' within the game of society, he may have applied it in a sort-of-meta way to the game world.

Evidence:
1) Belkar is willing to accept Roy's explanation for trusting Durkon before #945.
2) He becomes considerably more hostile to him post #945.

[SowZ]

Is it possible that Belkar is capable of/is metagaming within the comic? Specifically, after his whole spirit quest with Shojo and realizing that he could 'cheat' within the game of society, he may have applied it in a sort-of-meta way to the game world.

Evidence:
1) Belkar is willing to accept Roy's explanation for trusting Durkon before #945.
2) He becomes considerably more hostile to him post #945.

Like fudging die rolls? I don't think that is possible since I don't think there are literal die rolls behind the curtain of the OOTSverse, so to speak. As for misinterpreting feats on purpose or ignoring pre-reqs? That's the kind of thing I'd expect to work in the early days of the comic, but not for quite some time.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Like fudging die rolls? I don't think that is possible since I don't think there are literal die rolls behind the curtain of the OOTSverse, so to speak. As for misinterpreting feats on purpose or ignoring pre-reqs? That's the kind of thing I'd expect to work in the early days of the comic, but not for quite some time.

To the contrary, I distinctly remember Durkon mentioning Vaarsuvius rolling a Natural 2 on his attempt to Dispel Nale's Suggestion on Belkar. Also the rogue who attacked Haley saying he "rolled mostly 6's, too." So they appear to exist, though they almost certainly won't be the driving force for any plot the big man Rich puts in place.

[SowZ]

To the contrary, I distinctly remember Durkon mentioning Vaarsuvius rolling a Natural 2 on his attempt to Dispel Nale's Suggestion on Belkar. Also the rogue who attacked Haley saying he "rolled mostly 6's, too." So they appear to exist, though they almost certainly won't be the driving force for any plot the big man Rich puts in place.

Eh, I don't think there are literal dice being rolled. I think in OOTS verse, if you have a +10 to attack and the enemy has 20 AC, you have a flat 50% chance to hit them. But there aren't literal dice being rolled anymore so there's nothing to fudge. The probability is inherently built in.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't think that Belkar became all that much more hostile to Durkon after the news of what Durkon was was revealed. Even if he has, I think that's more readily explained by the fact that he had several days to grow to dislike the new Durkon even more.

[Jormengand]

Oh come on, V metagames horribly in the first comic. OOTS wouldn't be OOTS if it had a functioning fourth wall, either in a game sense or a comic sense.

[SowZ]

Oh come on, V metagames horribly in the first comic. OOTS wouldn't be OOTS if it had a functioning fourth wall, either in a game sense or a comic sense.

Yeah, but I don't think that kind of thing would happen anymore.

[Jormengand]

Yeah, but I don't think that kind of thing would happen anymore.

Sure, Haley would never have in-character knowledge about spell resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html), and it's not like Elan would take any more knowledge (webcomics) checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html), right? I mean, surely, Rich would never put in a random gnome who knew the numerical save bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) granted by the vest of resistance, or worse still, have Haley mention the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) in the comic, right? And he certainly wouldn't have Elan and Haley discussing the comic layout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0964.html), right?

[137beth]

And it's not like Elan knows how much time it takes for the comic to update (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html), right?
Metagaming (or "metacomicing", as the case may be) has been the norm in OOTS for a long time.

[SowZ]

Sure, Haley would never have in-character knowledge about spell resistance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0973.html), and it's not like Elan would take any more knowledge (webcomics) checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0971.html), right? I mean, surely, Rich would never put in a random gnome who knew the numerical save bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html) granted by the vest of resistance, or worse still, have Haley mention the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html) in the comic, right? And he certainly wouldn't have Elan and Haley discussing the comic layout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0964.html), right?

Okay, let's slow down there with the sarcasm, jeez. Yes, knowledge of the game mechanics is built into the world, I know that, give me credit that I am not a complete moron, okay? I'm talking about the context of the thread, where Belkar is fudging the rules to be more competent somehow. I was acknowledging yes, that sort of thing would have been perfectly in line with the early comics, but I don't think it would happen anymore.

[Keltest]

Okay, let's slow down there with the sarcasm, jeez. Yes, knowledge of the game mechanics is built into the world, I know that, give me credit that I am not a complete moron, okay? I'm talking about the context of the thread, where Belkar is fudging the rules to be more competent somehow. I was acknowledging yes, that sort of thing would have been perfectly in line with the early comics, but I don't think it would happen anymore.

I concur. Belkar's ability to win a fight is already dependent on the Giant's desire for a specific outcome in the fight. For something plot relevant to be decided by "Belkar can arbitrarily break the laws of reality sometimes" would be rather jarring at this point, especially since Rich has plenty of other tools at his disposal that don't involve creating problems in the future.

[Ramien]

Is it possible that Belkar is capable of/is metagaming within the comic? Specifically, after his whole spirit quest with Shojo and realizing that he could 'cheat' within the game of society, he may have applied it in a sort-of-meta way to the game world.

Evidence:
1) Belkar is willing to accept Roy's explanation for trusting Durkon before #945.
2) He becomes considerably more hostile to him post #945.

Really, it's just Belkar being Belkar. He was originally willing to deal with HPoH while there was immediate danger and he was still dealing with the blood loss. Now that he's healed up again, he's taking what chances he can to fight HPoH while Roy isn't looking.

[Killer Angel]

I concur. Belkar's ability to win a fight is already dependent on the Giant's desire for a specific outcome in the fight. For something plot relevant to be decided by "Belkar can arbitrarily break the laws of reality sometimes" would be rather jarring at this point, especially since Rich has plenty of other tools at his disposal that don't involve creating problems in the future.

Plot relevant 4th wall breaking can still happen (Haley and the diamond is an example), but I don't think it will happen in a relavant moment such a fight-for-life by Belkar. IMO it would be an anticlimax.
But hey, I'm not the Giant.

[allenw]

Belkar can metagame (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html), but not always successfully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0869.html).

[Keltest]

Plot relevant 4th wall breaking can still happen (Haley and the diamond is an example), but I don't think it will happen in a relavant moment such a fight-for-life by Belkar. IMO it would be an anticlimax.
But hey, I'm not the Giant.

Indeed. I would like to point out though that the Diamond thing didn't actually solve an otherwise insurmountable problem, it just saved them the time it would take V to plane shift a couple times and grab a diamond. As soon as Rich opens that can of worms with Belkar and combat though, every time he doesn't crush his opponent, people will be asking "Why didn't he do X, when he was capable of it before?"

[Lord Torath]

Indeed. I would like to point out though that the Diamond thing didn't actually solve an otherwise insurmountable problem, it just saved them the time it would take V to plane shift a couple times and grab a diamond. As soon as Rich opens that can of worms with Belkar and combat though, every time he doesn't crush his opponent, people will be asking "Why didn't he do X, when he was capable of it before?"It also solved a problem that only occurred on the same strip. The lack of diamonds was not a long-term problem that had been plaguing the Order for multiple strips. Durkon had already acquired the required diamonds. The only reason they were stolen was to allow Rich to include the 4th-wall-breaking joke of Haley stealing the diamond from herself, and to provide another situation where V's Ultimate Arcane PowerTM was again unnecessary.

[veti]

Yeah, if Belkar could literally "fudge" die rolls, I don't think he'd still be consistently fluffing every. Single. Saving throw.

I'm reasonably sure he's not 'metagaming' in any meaningful way. There are good in-comic reasons why he (alone) knows not to trust the HPoH.

[Killer Angel]

Indeed. I would like to point out though that the Diamond thing didn't actually solve an otherwise insurmountable problem, it just saved them the time it would take V to plane shift a couple times and grab a diamond. As soon as Rich opens that can of worms with Belkar and combat though, every time he doesn't crush his opponent, people will be asking "Why didn't he do X, when he was capable of it before?"

...and I wouldn't like to see all those worms. :smallwink:

[Procyonpi]

Metagaming is perhaps a bit strong a term, but I do think he was always been the most genre-savvy character in the Order Besides Elan.

[woweedd]

Coincidentally, there is an answer to this in the comc where Belkar starts that trick: "I thought we weren't actually representing a game camping, we were just living in a world where the laws of_" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) So yeah, i'm not sure Belkar is able to Metagame if they're not in a game but rather in a world with Laws Of (presumbley) Physics that resemble a game.

[ahdok]

I'm pretty sure everything is moving at the speed of plot, at a rate of plot plots per narrative.