Dusk Elves

[Kazuel]

So I'm DMing for a group and 2 of the players want to be Dusk Elves. The had some sort of wiki up with all the details but it didn't say anything about LA. the bonuses seemed too good not to have some sort of LA at all so I spot ruled that it was LA+1.

Has anyone heard of this or know it's official source? As always, all thoughts on the subject are appreciated.

[A_S]

There's an official version of Dusk Elves for 4th edition in Dragon 382, but 4E elf subraces don't have separate stats, just lists of feats they can take, so guessing that's not what you're talking about.

I also found this version (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Elves,_Dusk_%283.5e_Race%29) from D&Dwiki. If that's the one you're talking about, then no, it's not official at all, it's homebrew (as is everything else on that site that isn't clearly marked as coming from the SRD). I would say given how good those bonuses are, LA+1 is being awfully generous; I'd go with +2. Really, though, that page has "this is my Mary Sue my-elves-are-better-than-other-elves homebrew race" written all over it, and I wouldn't allow it in my game.

[Karl Aegis]

I'm guessing you're playing pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/elf#TOC-Racial-Subtypes) and don't realize net +2 ability scores are standard. Their darkvision gives them light sensitivity and they aren't that good.

[Kazuel]

Yeah that's what they were looking at. Any advice on how much to tone down? Probably the stat bonus and land speed for sure.

[A_S]

Yeah that's what they were looking at. Any advice on how much to tone down? Probably the stat bonus and land speed for sure.
Are you trying to balance them into a LA+0 race like other elves, or keep them at a reasonable +1?

[Kazuel]

Reasonable LA+1

[Eloel]

Reasonable LA+1

Ditch Cha to AC, reduce Dex bonus to +2 and remove Int bonus. That should be LA +1.

[ImperatorV]

Alternatively, make them take +d6 damage from iron weapons like an Unseelie Fey.

[A_S]

Reasonable LA+1
Okay. I would:
Reduce the stat bonuses to a net +2 or +4 (via some combination of reducing the Dex bonus to +2, removing the Int and/or Cha bonuses, or adding a -2 Con penalty like other elves)
Reduce land speed to 30
Remove Unearthly Grace entirely
Change the skill bonuses so that they no longer grant 7 permanent class skills (keeping the small numerical bonuses would be fine)
Remove the exotic weapons from the racial proficiencies (just keep the regular Elf proficiencies)
-----

By way of context, the LA+1 races you're competing with are things like:
Aasimar (net +4 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Tiefling (net +2 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Goliath (net +2 to stats, +2 to 1 skill, Powerful Build, trifling other bonuses)
Duergar (net -2 to stats, two nice SLA's (Enlarge Person and Invisibility), a couple minor immunities, +4 to 1 skill and +1 to 2 others, Darkvision)

[ImperatorV]

Okay. I would:
Reduce the stat bonuses to a net +2 or +4 (via some combination of reducing the Dex bonus to +2, removing the Int and/or Cha bonuses, or adding a -2 Con penalty like other elves)
Reduce land speed to 30
Remove Unearthly Grace entirely
Change the skill bonuses so that they no longer grant 7 permanent class skills (keeping the small numerical bonuses would be fine)
Remove the exotic weapons from the racial proficiencies (just keep the regular Elf proficiencies)
-----

By way of context, the LA+1 races you're competing with are things like:
Aasimar (net +4 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Tiefling (net +2 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Goliath (net +2 to stats, +2 to 1 skill, Powerful Build, trifling other bonuses)
Duergar (net -2 to stats, two nice SLA's (Enlarge Person and Invisibility), a couple minor immunities, +4 to 1 skill and +1 to 2 others, Darkvision)

Eh. I'd consider all those examples to be underpowered. You should not be comparing it to other races, but to a class level. Battledancer gives charisma to AC, compare a level one elven battledancer to the dusk elf and aim to match it.

[A_S]

Eh. I'd consider all those examples to be underpowered. You should not be comparing it to other races, but to a class level. Battledancer gives charisma to AC, compare a level one elven battledancer to the dusk elf and aim to match it.
This depends very much on whether LA buyoff is in play.

If there's no LA buyoff, then you can balance LA races around the equivalent number of class levels. You'll end up with races that are better than any other existing race at their LA, but they won't particularly break your game, they'll just be good compared to existing (usually pretty bad) LA races.

If there is LA buyoff, then balancing LA races around equivalent class levels becomes overpowered after the first few levels, and unfairly penalizes anyone who hasn't picked one of your homebrewed better-than-the-published-versions LA races.

My suggested changes above are intended to bring Dusk Elves into line with published LA+1 races.

[aspekt]

The only homebrew I allow in my games is beer and liquor.

Seriously though the minute one of my players approaches me with DnD wiki I know what I'm in for. Come to think of it it is just that one player.

It's a great site with some neat ideas, but it has limited mileage for me.

[jjcrpntr]

The only homebrew I allow in my games is beer and liquor.

Seriously though the minute one of my players approaches me with DnD wiki I know what I'm in for. Come to think of it it is just that one player.

It's a great site with some neat ideas, but it has limited mileage for me.

I'm very close to this. I have a strict rule in my pathfinder game. If I don't have the book sitting on my shelf you can't pull from it. Even then I have players occasionally, not as often anymore though, that show up with something they found on the SRD and didn't look at the citation. I'm ok with a bit of homebrewing but if it's something I think is cheesy/broken/op I veto it. Thankfully my players are all pretty cool about it generally.

[Kazuel]

Thanks for the help. I didn't realize it was full on home brew when they showed it to me. I'd have probably not allowed it on the spot had I known. However I told them that I may adjust the race after researching it.

I think I'll do the following to help balance it.

Reduce Dex to +2
-2 Con
No Cha to AC
Base land speed 30

I only have 3 players and the two that wanted to play dusk elves are a Warblade and archer ranger so it's not like they are taking OP classes. My third player is new to dnd but is playing a beat stick cleric of Kord. Again thanks for the insight.

[aspekt]

I'm very close to this. I have a strict rule in my pathfinder game. If I don't have the book sitting on my shelf you can't pull from it. Even then I have players occasionally, not as often anymore though, that show up with something they found on the SRD and didn't look at the citation. I'm ok with a bit of homebrewing but if it's something I think is cheesy/broken/op I veto it. Thankfully my players are all pretty cool about it generally.

That actually is my rule. The argument being that I need access and to have at least read about the class before. I've made exceptions of course and no doubt will in the future.

And my table is generally accepting of this policy as well.

[atemu1234]

Odds are LA would be reasonable at +2 or +3, with few changes.

[Solaris]

Considering how easy it is to break the game with published materials, I'm generally pretty okay with homebrew so long as it's not on par with the lightning warrior (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

A_S has good recommendations. Without alteration, I'd say this race is about an LA +2... and is a pretty good example of why D&Dwiki's fly-by-night contributors deserve the contempt heaped upon them. That fluff is execrable Mary Suelf at its finest.

[Blackhawk748]

+2 to seven skills, a net bonus of +6 to stats, Cha to AC, and a total of +5 to saves vs enchantment?? If i had been drinking i would have spewed it across the room. Also they are LA +2, so their creator isnt freakin stupid. Still holy crap, that race is ridiculous.

Something more reasonable and still a "Dusk Elf"

+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Wis
Base land speed 30ft
Darkvision 60 ft
Immunity to magic sleep effects, +2 racial bonus on saves vs Enchantements
+2 racial bonus on Spot, Listen, and Bluff
Automatic weapon proficiency with the short sword, longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow (including composite shortbow and composite longbow).
Any dusk elf who passes within 5 ft of a secret door is entitled to a Search check as though actively searching for it.

Boom, LA +0 and an entirely reasonable one at that. (ok maybe a bit up there, but still below lesser planetouched)
Also what was with the Ranseur proficiency? Since when do elves use polearms??


Considering how easy it is to break the game with published materials, I'm generally pretty okay with homebrew so long as it's not on par with the lightning warrior (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Lightning_Warrior).

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Its a freaking Fighter//Wizard gestalt with more spells. Oh good lord thats the laziest homebrewing ive ever seen.

[Kazuel]

Well after all the back and forth negotiations, my players are giving up on the Dusk Elves for I believe human. Kind of wished I had said no from the beginning. Oh well.

[A_S]

Also they are LA +2, so their creator isnt freakin stupid. Still holy crap, that race is ridiculous.
The LA has been edited in since this discussion started (by an anonymous editor). It was previously unlisted.

[Blackhawk748]

The LA has been edited in since this discussion started (by an anonymous editor). It was previously unlisted.

Well then, someone over there is intelligent. Just...just stay away from there, theres so much bad that it isnt worth digging trough it to find the few usable gems.

[ImperatorV]

Well then, someone over there is intelligent. Just...just stay away from there, theres so much bad that it isnt worth digging trough it to find the few usable gems.

The best part of the site, IMO, is how it doesn't say what's homebrew and what isn't except for in small letters at the bottom of the page. I don't even trust their SRD stuff as a result.

[SiuiS]

Give everyone similar stuff. This is how that group wants to play, that's cool.

[atemu1234]

Well then, someone over there is intelligent. Just...just stay away from there, theres so much bad that it isnt worth digging trough it to find the few usable gems.

Yeah, I used to go on there and try to fix the really horrible stuff. Downside being, it often involved completely ignoring the original stats in favor of balanced ones.

[aspekt]

The name was cool, though.

Also, why do I keep having the nagging suspicion that they homebrewed it, stuck it up on the dndwiki, and then tried to sell it to the DM as legit?

If that wasn't a practical joke, then it would be gameover for that table as far as I'm concerned. I love to DM and play tabletops, but not enough to put up with wanna be scamkids.

[Vhaidara]

The name was cool, though.

Also, why do I keep having the nagging suspicion that they homebrewed it, stuck it up on the dndwiki, and then tried to sell it to the DM as legit?

If that wasn't a practical joke, then it would be gameover for that table as far as I'm concerned. I love to DM and play tabletops, but not enough to put up with wanna be scamkids.

Nah, that one's been around for a while. I had a GM link it to me about a week ago as something they used to troll around with before switching to PF.

[Solaris]

The best part of the site, IMO, is how it doesn't say what's homebrew and what isn't except for in small letters at the bottom of the page. I don't even trust their SRD stuff as a result.

It's all homebrew, unless it's SRD.
To be fair to homebrewers, not all homebrew material is bad - much like not all published material is good. It's just that D&Dwiki has an incredibly low bar for entry and a format that makes review difficult, while simultaneously making it much more accessible than posting it on a forum does.


Well then, someone over there is intelligent.

Thank you. I'm not touching the fluff with a 10-foot pole, but I do like to take swipes at un-futzing bad homebrew every now and again.


Yeah, I used to go on there and try to fix the really horrible stuff. Downside being, it often involved completely ignoring the original stats in favor of balanced ones.

No kidding. With a lot of 'em, it just plain isn't worth the effort at trying to make something worthwhile out of them. I've considered posting some of my stuff on there, but I shudder to think at what some of those kids would do to it.

[LoyalPaladin]

Come to think of it it is just that one player.
I totally feel you... I have one player who insists that their stuff is SRD every time and then when I point out it is user created they realize they were wrong. But they always seem to forget... that site totally demolished one of my games. Yeah, I'm lookin' at your Barkeeper (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Barkeeper_%283.5e_Class%29).

In relation tot he actual post, I'm actually on A_S's side (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18955925&postcount=9). Bringing a homebrew race in line with one of the publushed +1 adjustments seems fair. Not only mechanically, but to your other players as well.

[Forrestfire]

By way of context, the LA+1 races you're competing with are things like:
Aasimar (net +4 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Tiefling (net +2 to stats, one SLA, +2 to 2 skills, minor resistances, Darkvision)
Goliath (net +2 to stats, +2 to 1 skill, Powerful Build, trifling other bonuses)
Duergar (net -2 to stats, two nice SLA's (Enlarge Person and Invisibility), a couple minor immunities, +4 to 1 skill and +1 to 2 others, Darkvision)

Honestly, all of those examples are underwhelming for LA +1. You're not competing against those, you're competing against the benefits of a class level.

For something to be worth taking a point of LA for, then it's gotta be actually useful. For context looking at races, I'd probably compare to:

Athas Human (+2 to any one stat, bonus feat, skill points, scaling psionic powers)
Dark template (Hide in Plain Sight, speed boosts, good skill bonuses, racial benefits of the base race)
Mineral Warrior template (strong defensive abilities, good stats, solid penalties to some stats, racial benefits of the base race)
Necropolitan template (effectively LA +1, undead type, racial benefits of the base race)