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Telonius
2007-04-10, 06:46 AM
Scott Kurtz over at PVP rant up at his blog (http://www.pvponline.com/blog/3254/webcomics-controversy) today. There's an accusation floating around the internets that one Todd Goldman has directly lifted a comic from Dave Kelly (Kurtz misspelled it as "Kelley," probably due to awful spelling on the part of the guy who pointed it out. "Plagerized." Pssht.) Anyway, here's the original cartoon from Purple ... (name for a cat that I'm not sure our filter will allow) (http://purplepussy.net/d/20010919.html). Beware of the adult content on some of the other strips; the particular link I posted is safe. Wikipedia's article on Todd Goldman is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Goldman). Beware the vandals.

The images themselves are pretty darn close to identical. The differences: Kelly's cat is wearing a bow, Goldman's is not. Goldman's whole strip is in color, Kelly's is in black and white. As far as I've been able to determine, Goldman did not make any citation to Kelly's original work anywhere during the art show. I haven't been able to find anything in defense of Goldman (that isn't potentially falseley attributed to him; see some of the Wiki's weirdness). If I find any, I'll put the links in here.

So, why am I posting this here? Taking it from Scott Kurtz...


That being said… A lot of people are encouraging David to seek legal action, contact the gallery, and even to sue Todd Goldman. But I have another suggestion:

David, you should make that panel open source. You should encourage everyone in webcomics to do a praying ***** strip. Make this one image synonymous with the act of plagiarism that Todd Goldman committed on you. Then ride the wave of attention and publicity and use it to bring your work the exposure it deserves. Turn something bad into a huge opportunity for yourself.

It could become the “Killroy was here.” or “Keep on truckin” of webcomics.
How much could you get out of Todd by seeking legal action against him? Compare that to what you could achieve by turning a single panel you created on a lark six years ago into a “tell tale heart” that this guy will NEVER be able to escape. He wanted that panel so bad….you should let him have it. Let everyone use it (http://www.starslipcrisis.com/). Let him never be able to escape it (http://www.pvponline.com/article/3253/mon-apr-09).


(Edit: Permalink (http://www.starslipcrisis.com/d/20070409.shtml) for the Starslip Crisis cartoon Kurtz linked to).

Indon
2007-04-10, 07:48 AM
Eh. Considering the hundreds, perhaps even thousands of webcomics out there, I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened multiple times already purely out of coincidence.

In fact, it might well have.

Waf
2007-04-10, 08:50 AM
It does happen from time to time, and at first look it seems like a simple enough joke that multiple people coincidentally could of come up with it. But then you look at the copied piece and the lines make a perfect overlay. The guy clearly stole it and didn't even try to hide it. They found half a dozen pieces of his work already that he stole, it seems fairly safe to say the guy is a thief and hopefully they can take him to the courts and make him pay out to all the people he ripped off to get where he is.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-10, 09:48 AM
This guy appears to be a jerk anyway. I'd probably change my mind if I knew more but that Wikipedia article is pretty biased that way.

The idea that a "professional artist" traced a webcomic artist's work and made it look worse amuses me to no end however.

Om
2007-04-10, 10:54 AM
I also saw this on PvP and was pretty amazed by just how blatant the plagiarism was. Really I don't think that there can be any doubt that it was a complete rip of Kelly's work. But this Goldman guy seems to thrive on controversy.

Edit: Here's Kelly's post (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2416213) from the Something Awful forums. Its pretty clear that Goldman simply traced the webcomic. The Something Awful connection also explains the Wiki vandalism.

Reinforcements
2007-04-10, 11:35 AM
Todd Goldman is a no-talent hack and an amoral jerk to boot. He had better suffer professionally for this.

Waf
2007-04-10, 02:01 PM
It's really sad, because it is crap like that which keep me from trying my luck at getting my shirt ideas published. Cause I bet my shirts would get rejected and then I'd end up seeing slightly modified versions of them for sale everywhere with no royalty cut for me.

Scientivore
2007-04-10, 04:26 PM
Waf, what about doing it yourself with CafePress, Zazzle or such?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-10, 04:31 PM
Just go with it, Waf. Copyright laws say that you ultimately own it if you created it, regardless of if you've registered the copyright. If you're concerned about not being able to afford lawyers to sue thieves, then consider a $4k rule. That goes as "Pay me $4k and I'll ignore your copyright theft and never mention it again". This works surprisingly well on most companies since they'd rather keep their reputation clean, and will more than likely make you more money than you'd ordinarily get anyway.

ElfLad
2007-04-10, 04:57 PM
Going on the T-shirt note: A drawing of an opened fortune cookie with the fortune reading "You will destroy the world," would be the best shirt ever.

Waf
2007-04-10, 05:28 PM
Waf, what about doing it yourself with CafePress, Zazzle or such?

I actually have been making shirts with Zazzle. :smallbiggrin: I have gotten some really good reactions from random people on the street (which I never got with shirts that I bought back in the day at hot topic). Which got me thinking about trying to market my shirts outside of my comic reader base.


Just go with it, Waf. Copyright laws say that you ultimately own it if you created it, regardless of if you've registered the copyright. If you're concerned about not being able to afford lawyers to sue thieves, then consider a $4k rule. That goes as "Pay me $4k and I'll ignore your copyright theft and never mention it again". This works surprisingly well on most companies since they'd rather keep their reputation clean, and will more than likely make you more money than you'd ordinarily get anyway.

I will look into that. I still have concerns though. For example accidently selling out my rights. Additionally there is always the problem of them modifying my idea and claiming that anyone could of come up with it. "There is nothing more dangerous than a Penguin with a chainsaw" becoming "There is nothing more dangerous than a Hedgehog with a bazooka".


Going on the T-shirt note: A drawing of an opened fortune cookie with the fortune reading "You will destroy the world," would be the best shirt ever.

Hehe I'll think on it. :smallwink:

Indon
2007-04-10, 06:00 PM
I will look into that. I still have concerns though. For example accidently selling out my rights. Additionally there is always the problem of them modifying my idea and claiming that anyone could of come up with it. "There is nothing more dangerous than a Penguin with a chainsaw" becoming "There is nothing more dangerous than a Hedgehog with a bazooka".


It'd be unlikely for a significant vendor to do this because if your ideas are good, you're likely to continue coming up with good ideas; severing their relationship with you prematurely so they could get one royalty-free idea would be like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs, and not even because they think there's gold inside, just to make like a meat pie or something.

But I'd be careful for this if you don't know the reputation of the vendor you're working with, though.

Alluvian
2007-04-10, 07:36 PM
At first my thought was that it might have been unintentional copying, especially with the dates involved. How easy would it be to see a simple comic like that, and years later, after you no longer consciously remember it, see something similar and then have this memory come back as what you think is an original idea.

Hasn't everything been done before at some point?

But then I saw the overlay and it was a little too similar for me to continue thinking that. But who knows how the brain works? Maybe his brain recalled the image very well, just like an artist see a very clear idea of what they want to draw before they do so.

I would be curious to have a few artists look at a simple line comic, for a few minutes and then get asked to redraw it a few days later. I wonder if they would overlay? How good is an artists brain at remembering geometry?

The easier answer is plagiarism. Occam would say it is plagiarism, and he is usually right. Smart as a razor that one.

Nevrmore
2007-04-10, 07:52 PM
Eh. Considering the hundreds, perhaps even thousands of webcomics out there, I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened multiple times already purely out of coincidence.

In fact, it might well have.
I hope you're saying that other people have copied this purely by accident and not saying that this documented case was not intentional, because if it's the latter, that is some old bullshiite right there.

I can see why people would find someone praying to God for something horrible at their bedside funny and want to make a cartoon about it, but having it be the exact same words? By the same type of animal? In nearly the same style? At the same angle? I mean, if anyone were that naive you could probably tell them that everyone is supposed to have two sets of their sexual organs and they'd believe you.

Waf
2007-04-10, 08:18 PM
Nah even if you were an incredible artist, no one has that photographic of a memory.

Although I'm completely willing to admit, especially in my old comic, I have used a joke that I had thought I made up only to find out down the road that I had accidently subconciously lifted it. It happens. On a webcomic I think it is treated as an unspoken rule that as long as it isn't a chronic thing people don't call each other out for the occasional joke lifting, and lets face it, it's going to happen to everyone. It just becomes more serious when actual money gets involved.

Turcano
2007-04-10, 09:53 PM
Yeah, that's a glaringly obvious trace. And Goldman sounds like the sort of childish brat to think that he could get away with it. It also makes me wonder how much of his other stuff (if anything) is original.

I also wonder about the efficacy of Kurtz's planned response. It seems that it might work if a lot of high-profile people did it, but this may run counter to Dave Kelly's wishes. I mean, he was the one who was victimized, and he might be a little sensitive to having everyone else reference it.

ElfLad
2007-04-10, 11:38 PM
By comparison, this guy makes me look like I have artistic integrity! Awesome.

Nevrmore
2007-04-10, 11:52 PM
By comparison, this guy makes me look like I have artistic integrity! Awesome.
You lost that the moment you wrote a Stunt/Bumper slash.

Assassinfox
2007-04-11, 12:26 AM
You lost that the moment you wrote a Stunt/Bumper slash.

QFT. :smallwink:

Peter Harris
2007-04-11, 01:29 AM
As soon as I read Kurtz' post, I realized he was right. Doing Fumetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumetti), my options are limited, but here's what I got (http://tellingtalltales.net/pics/view/11).

Om
2007-04-11, 06:18 AM
As soon as I read Kurtz' post, I realized he was right. Doing Fumetti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumetti), my options are limited, but here's what I got (http://tellingtalltales.net/pics/view/11).Pftt you just held a cat up to a camera. I could do that if I had a cat, a camera or a website. Call yourself an artist...

:smallwink:

Jibar
2007-04-11, 11:45 AM
Ahhhh. It's time like this I'm glad that people like Tycho (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2007/04/11) exist.

Personally though, I don't like this guy at all, and this is the first I've heard of him.
He promotes rocks! He must be pure evil!

Indon
2007-04-11, 12:18 PM
At first my thought was that it might have been unintentional copying, especially with the dates involved. How easy would it be to see a simple comic like that, and years later, after you no longer consciously remember it, see something similar and then have this memory come back as what you think is an original idea.

Hasn't everything been done before at some point?

But then I saw the overlay and it was a little too similar for me to continue thinking that.

My thoughts as well. Apparently, Keenspot itself's getting in on this, as the overlay was put in as their newsbox today.

Disposablecat
2007-04-13, 12:05 PM
Dont' worry SA is taking good care of Shmorky. He's already talked to a lawyer and hopefully something will come of this. Also some more SA support for the situation http://www.somethingawful.com/flash/shmorky/SA-tshirtAD.swf

Waf
2007-04-13, 01:44 PM
It's just amazing how bad Todd blew his own foot off during this. I mean if he had upfront said "Yeah I liked his comic and I copied it and claimed it as my own. I'm sorry and I will compensate him what I owe him." I mean insulting the people you wronged is no way to get them to shut up. Instead he further provoked them which caused them to scour the internet and dig up more of his rips and basically run him deeper into the ground than he was before.

Mr._Blinky
2007-04-13, 10:21 PM
It's just amazing how bad Todd blew his own foot off during this. I mean if he had upfront said "Yeah I liked his comic and I copied it and claimed it as my own. I'm sorry and I will compensate him what I owe him." I mean insulting the people you wronged is no way to get them to shut up. Instead he further provoked them which caused them to scour the internet and dig up more of his rips and basically run him deeper into the ground than he was before.
The guy is an immature little prick who whines when he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Honestly, I'm not to surprised that he'd do something that stupid.

Waf
2007-04-14, 11:12 PM
Now the whole hacked Myspace thing. This just seems unreal. I mean does he really think he can take on the internet? If I ever get caught ripping off dozens of artists online it is you guys' responsibility to crack me over the head with and brick and make me apologize and never do it again, k?

Assassinfox
2007-04-15, 02:22 AM
Now the whole hacked Myspace thing. This just seems unreal. I mean does he really think he can take on the internet? If I ever get caught ripping off dozens of artists online it is you guys' responsibility to crack me over the head with and brick and make me apologize and never do it again, k?

I'll go get my brick. :smallbiggrin:

JoeHills
2007-04-15, 10:29 AM
I already knew that. That's why I'm prepared with a cinder-"brick".

SteveMB
2007-04-15, 10:49 AM
Now the whole hacked Myspace thing. This just seems unreal.
What hacked Myspace thing?

(I hope this doesn't end with me dreaming of the day when when I learn to stop asking questions to which I will regret learning the answers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)....)

Assassinfox
2007-04-15, 11:38 AM
What hacked Myspace thing?

(I hope this doesn't end with me dreaming of the day when when I learn to stop asking questions to which I will regret learning the answers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html)....)

Apparently, Todd or one of his goons has been going around hacking into anyone's MySpace that accuses him of plagiarism, associates with the "Todd's a hack!" groups, or in any way insults him. Lots of people are losing their personal MySpaces because of this guy. :smallmad:

Waf
2007-04-16, 12:55 AM
At least we are assuming it is thanks to him. It could be some drama mongerer who did it to keep running :todd: into the mud. It's bad to make assumptions, but considering how poorly he has handled everything up until now it seems frighteningly reasonable to assume he was involved.

This is just unbelievable in every sense of the word. His Boy's Are Stupid Throw Rocks at the Design. Quite possible the most famous of all of his designs is STOLEN! (http://uplued.com/waffleimages/files/75/75f2569f75cdb6f021718f8a7bf79b75a70bbc13.jpg) What a hack!

Scientivore
2007-04-24, 02:54 PM
This is just unbelievable in every sense of the word. His Boy's Are Stupid Throw Rocks at the Design. Quite possible the most famous of all of his designs is What a hack!

Your link is broken. Here's a link to a [URL="http://www.miketyndall.com/todd_goldman/"]more comprehensive revelation (]STOLEN![/URL) of his design plagiarism.

Waf
2007-04-24, 03:58 PM
It's funny on that shirt, it always struck me as kind of odd. I draw pretty much all my stuff from a 3/4 perspective. And the head of that character was so much lower detail than the rest of the body and unlike the body (which was in 3/4) the head was in full. And having worked out of 3/4 so much it seemed weird and out of place. Turns out it was, cause he only stole half.

Telonius
2007-04-24, 04:20 PM
Brief update: the Las Vegas Sun (http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/do/2007/apr/12/566637041.html)has an article about this. Quote from there:



Kelly (www.shmorky.com (http://www.shmorky.com)) said he plans to take legal action.
"I would never have a problem with somebody making a parody of my stuff. Parody is OK. What this guy did was trace. Everyone can see that he traced it. There is no denying it," Kelly said. "I do want something out of this: money, and I want to hear an apology."
Goldman issued a statement Wednesday saying that he issued a formal apology and that he will not use Kelly's design again. The statement also says that Goldman will donate his proceeds from the painting to "Mr. Kelly or a charity of his choice."
He said one of the artists working for his company brought the image to him.
"I made a judgment error and didn't research the background of this particular submission," Goldman said. "My intention was not to copy Mr. Kelly."
Kelly confirmed that Goldman e-mailed an apology.
Of the Internet reaction, Goldman said: "This is just a bunch of hater artists trying to take me down. I'm not an online Web guy. I'm not trying to rip people off. I work with a team of artists at David & Goliath. We create thousands of designs."
Artists and bloggers say Goldman has taken characters from other cartoons. Goldman disputes that, saying that some of the characters in question are his own and have been licensed, and that in the past year he has sent 50 cease-and-desist letters to artists doing knockoffs of his work.
"It's frustrating to have my whole career, my creativity, being questioned because of one mistake," he said.
Kelly, on the other hand, says he is "overwhelmed and moved by the reaction."


(EDIT: This was from April 12th. Sorry for the late update, but I hadn't checked up on it since my original post).

Waf
2007-04-26, 03:44 PM
Hehehehe I found a Todd Rip. It literally took 5 seconds a GIS key phrase of feather. :elan:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/wafzilla/toddgoldman.png

source (http://www.sm5sxl.net/~mats/graphics/images/clipart/misc/feather.png)

There really should be a game made out of finding the rips. I mean it's hilariously easy.

Koga
2007-04-26, 04:07 PM
Bahh, the internet is an anarchy and that guy best get use to it!

Then again The Koga was never fond of property rights. Anything short of stealing or destroying something you own makes it irrelevant. You can't own ideas. It would be nice to get some credit where credit is due. That's what we have'em for, to show who inspired us to write something. But that's about it.

1dominator
2007-04-26, 04:12 PM
Yep the guy does seem like a complete jerk. The Wikipedia article is most likely biased though, so Il wait till more concrete proof is found before passins judgement. But I personally dont even like his attitude, but that's just me.
-Dom

Mr._Blinky
2007-04-26, 08:02 PM
While I hate the guy, and plagiarism in general is one of the things that gets me most pissed, I think some people are taking this too far. I've seen several examples in various places where people have accused this guy of stealing stuff, but most of it is so different that I'd say he drew inspiration at most, and several of the plagiarism claims I've seen have bordered on ridiculous.

Seriously, while it's laughably obvious that he's ripped off massive amounts of people, don't just assume that just because you've found a picture that bares passing resemblance to one of his shirts, it means he stole it. It's always possible, but I think by this point people are starting to see theft where either there is none, or it's from a completely different source.

Waf
2007-04-26, 08:51 PM
Well like on the feather I found it's hard to see the overlay because it is such a perfect fit, it is obviously he clearly traced it. I agree some of the things seem unlikely he lifted directly, but at the same time it is good to explore all the potential options because it will help those that he did clearly steal from's case the more you can establish that he does that sort of thing. I do agree though, before submitting the evidence to any sort of authority they do need to go through it and decide what is confirmed plagiarism and what isn't.

Mr._Blinky
2007-04-26, 09:31 PM
The thing is, finding what can be confirmed and what just happens to look similar is very important making a case against the guy. If you start popping out random pictures that make it look like you're reaching as much as possible, the chances of being taken seriously drastically decrease. You need to make sure that you have good, tight evidence, rather than just a lot of pictures that are quite possibly unrelated.

Waf
2007-04-26, 09:33 PM
I think you are agreeing with me.

Mr._Blinky
2007-04-26, 09:43 PM
I think you are agreeing with me.
I am indeed, but I'm just pointing out that even here on the internet, the amount wild speculation that happens actually makes me more skeptical on how much he's stolen, not less. I'm sure he's stolen plenty, but even if you aren't presenting something to a court of law, it's important to see if you really think something is actually plagiarized before you bring it to anyone's attention.

Haggis_McCrablice
2007-05-15, 02:47 PM
At first my thought was that it might have been unintentional copying, especially with the dates involved. How easy would it be to see a simple comic like that, and years later, after you no longer consciously remember it, see something similar and then have this memory come back as what you think is an original idea.
Like Elaine in that episode of Seinfeld with the New Yorker cartoon? "Puddy has Ziggy sheets!" I know how it feels to be wrongly accused opf such a reprehensible act. I am very, very wary about throwing around the p-word after a bad experience in the journalism world ten years ago. To this day my reputation is irrevocably soiled over the dispute, and there's still a lot of hard feelings between me and my "friends". While I do admit to drawing inspiration from a number of sources, from old Warner Bros. cartoons to Three Stooges films to slasher movies, I always try to credit my sources, and invite anyone else who sees a cultural reference I might have missed to submit it. If it is good, I will add it to my site and gladly credit the sender.


I mean, if anyone were that naive you could probably tell them that everyone is supposed to have two sets of their sexual organs and they'd believe you.
Trust me, I know some newspapermen and -women that blind and gullible. If they are that easily fooled, I pity any paper that hires them.