The Role of a Druid

[hymer]

I'm putting together a discussion for my druid handbook about what roles druids can fill and how they can do it. I'd particularly like to have it pointed out of I'm missing roles, but any thoughts, suggestions, ideas, etc. are welcome.

Battlefield Control and Debuff: Druids have quite good spells that accomplish these things, starting right at level one with Entangle and Faerie Fire. Often enough, druid BC spells also have a debuff or damage element (or even all three, see the Whirlwind spell in the Elemental Evil supplement for a particularly amusing example), but you will generally pay with your Concentration. There are a few non-Concentration BC spells (Speak with Plants funnily enough, and Plant Growth).

Buffing: Most buff spells are Concentration spells, so buffing isn’t what it used to be. But there are a handful or so non-Concentration buff spells in the druid list (like Longstrider, Freedom of Movement, and Regenerate), and several good Concentration buffs. For out of combat, Enhance Ability and Pass without Trace stand out.

Damage: While druids do have some blasting spells in their arsenal (especially if you play with the Elemental Evil spells), druid damage spells often work rather slowly, or do less damage but with an additional effect. As a consequence, druids can do some blasting, but their style is not generally as time efficient as stronger blaster classes.
Moon druids are generally mediocre damage dealers at best. There are notable exceptions (particularly levels 2-4), and you can sometimes combine a damage over time spell with a wild shape, constituting a moon druid’s burst capacity. But in general the wild shapes do not compare well to expert at-will damage dealers, particularly if those get magical weapons.
Druid combat cantrips are also mediocre at best in damage dealing.
It seems that druids in general are designed to outlast opponents and gradually wear them down, rather than taking them out in quick bursts.
There is one way druids can compete on damage dealing, however, and that’s by minionmancy. See below.

Damage Sponge: In general, and particularly at the right levels, the moon druid is an unparalleled stack of hit points (level 2 and level 20 being the most notorious). It depends mostly on the wild shape forms available, but also on what spells you have to back them up with. Defensive buffs like Barkskin, Protection from Energy and Stoneskin can, when used at the right time, squeeze a lot of extra mileage out of those wild shape hit points. And to add to that, you can of course heal those extra hit points with bonus actions.
Land druids need to have external damage sponges to be workable here. See under minionmancy below.

Face: While lacking Expertise for double proficiency, druids can still be decent party faces. Insight is a class skill, and you will have good wisdom to use it. Picking up Persuasion (or, if you prefer, Bluff or Intimidate) shouldn’t be too hard. You can also enhance your social skills with spells (Charm Person, Enhance Ability). While charisma is not a key ability for druids, you could invest in it easier than most classes that don’t depend on charisma. Druids are not very stat dependent, especially Moon druids.

Minionmancy: Druids make first rate minionmancers in 5e, competing only with wizards for the top spot. There are many spells in the druid list that can give you minions. Conjured allies are splendid spell slot economy and nicely versatile. The Conjure X spells are the obvious mainstays, and you can use Planar Binding on conjured elementals. Depending on your DM, you can also use spells like Animal Friendship and Awaken to round up some extra friends before the fighting begins.

Scouting/Stealth: Between innocuous wild shapes and Pass without Trace, every druid is an able infiltrator and scout from level 3. Having proficiency in Stealth, the Skulker feat, and/or a stealthy race can stretch this further. Land circle spells like Invisibility and Gaseous Form are also possibilities. Dealing with traps and locks may be a bit of a bother, though bypassing them can often be done (very small or supple wild shape; shapes that can burrow, earth glide, fly or climb; using Stoneshape spells, etc.). You can use conjured minions (flying and invisible pixies or sprites are quite good) and charmed or otherwise friendly beasts (and maybe Beast Sense) to do your scouting for you. And finally you have a few divination spells that can do a lot of scouting, like Scrying and Commune with Nature.

Spell Slot Economy: Druids have quite a few spells that heal or hurt big numbers for their level, but slowly. Goodberry is a cumbersome healing spell, but it heals a big number of hit points. Flaming Sphere takes some time to get going, but it can deal a lot of damage over its duration. Druids also get some spells that give you something to do for a while without expending further spell slots, like Call Lightning and Sunbeam. Using Conjure X spells can potentially give you a lot of action for a single spell slot.

Utility: Between wild shape and being a prepared caster, druids can cover a lot of ground as they level up. They can teleport, fly, climb, go underwater, shape earth and stone, talk to plants, change the weather, scry, and many more things. They also get basic healing and debuff removal, though not to the degree of the cleric.

[Yorrin]

Being the third best healer, with a large gap between them and the next best, is at least worth noting. Not that healing itself needs to be a focus of any given build, but it is a still a role they fill well.

[hymer]

Being the third best healer, with a large gap between them and the next best, is at least worth noting. Not that healing itself needs to be a focus of any given build, but it is a still a role they fill well.

Absolutely right, healing deserves a separate mention! Thanks!
Just out of curiosity, who or what do you rank first and second? 1: Life cleric, 2: Any other cleric?

[Giant2005]

Absolutely right, healing deserves a separate mention! Thanks!
Just out of curiosity, who or what do you rank first and second? 1: Life cleric, 2: Any other cleric?

1: Life Cleric
2: Bard
3: Druids
4: Other Clerics
5: Paladins
6: Rangers

Paladins can potentially move up to number 3 or perhaps even number 1 depending on the choices of the players. Paladins have less spell slots but the fact that Lay on Hands doesn't do anything but heal gives it far more reliability than spell slots that could be already spent elsewhere when heals are needed.

[hymer]

Paladins can potentially move up to number 3 or perhaps even number 1 depending on the choices of the players. Paladins have less spell slots but the fact that Lay on Hands doesn't do anything but heal gives it far more reliability than spell slots that could be already spent elsewhere when heals are needed.

To keep this conversation going, player choice would be first and last in where the bard ends up too, won't it?

[Giant2005]

To keep this conversation going, player choice would be first and last in where the bard ends up too, won't it?

Bards get their spot due to Song of Rest.
Other than the perks of the Life Cleric and the Paladin, that is the only ability other than spells themselves which help with healing.

[hymer]

Why rate non-life cleric lower than druids?

[AvatarVecna]

To keep this conversation going, player choice would be first and last in where the bard ends up too, won't it?

I partially agree with this. Clerics, both Life and non-Life, as well as Druids can make the daily choice of whether to prepare healing spells or not. Bards have a much more limited access to spells, seeing as they choose the spells they can access at level-ups, rather than at the beginning of the day. Of course, Bards get Song of Rest, which can be a powerful boon if employed strategically; that is to say, if a player restricts themselves to using a single healing surge at a time, they can maximize their effective daily healing.

[Giant2005]

Why rate non-life cleric lower than druids?

Goodberry.

[hymer]

Goodberry.

So this is a list at fairly low level? The criterion being, basically, how much healing can this class do between long rests if they bend all their resources to it?

[Giant2005]

So this is a list at fairly low level? The criterion being, basically, how much healing can this class do between long rests if they bend all their resources to it?

Goodberry is amazing at all levels - possibly even more amazing at high levels. At high levels you are more likely to have a good chunk of leftover spell slots at the end of the day. Each of those spell slots are 10 Goodberries for the next day which means that thanks to that spell, each day you have access to 10s or possibly even hundreds of HP worth of healing before you even touch your spell slots.

[hymer]

I see. Thank you much! :smallsmile:

[Jamesps]

Goodberry is amazing at all levels - possibly even more amazing at high levels. At high levels you are more likely to have a good chunk of leftover spell slots at the end of the day. Each of those spell slots are 10 Goodberries for the next day which means that thanks to that spell, each day you have access to 10s or possibly even hundreds of HP worth of healing before you even touch your spell slots.

Warlocks with goodberry (through multiclassing) are incredibly low level healers just from that one spell. It's not combat healing, mind you, but you can pretty much ensure that you go into every battle fully healed.

[Yorrin]

Absolutely right, healing deserves a separate mention! Thanks!
Just out of curiosity, who or what do you rank first and second? 1: Life cleric, 2: Any other cleric?

I'd say
1. Clerics
2. Bards
3. Druids
with Rangers and Paladins distantly vying for 4th and 5th, and Rogues in via item use at 6th.

Bards and Druids are pretty competitive with each other in the healing department, though. Bards get healing-supportive class features and the ability to pick the best healing spells, as well as more buffing spells for damage prevention in the first place, whereas Druids are divine casters and thus have more flexibility in spell selection as a healer. Even the most basic Cleric, however, has the capacity for more healing. Life is, of course, top of the pack, but they're all basically built around the healer archetype. Not that Cleric's are stuck doing only that (far from it), but I suspect that it was the starting place from a design perspective.

Back to the original class, though, what do you think of Druids new cantrip Magic Stone as it pertains to buffing? I would imagine that it could be a good ranged damage improvement for many classes, or even for the party familiar, if allowed.

[hymer]

I'd say
1. Clerics
2. Bards
3. Druids
with Rangers and Paladins distantly vying for 4th and 5th, and Rogues in via item use at 6th.

Bards and Druids are pretty competitive with each other in the healing department, though. Bards get healing-supportive class features and the ability to pick the best healing spells, as well as more buffing spells for damage prevention in the first place, whereas Druids are divine casters and thus have more flexibility in spell selection as a healer. Even the most basic Cleric, however, has the capacity for more healing. Life is, of course, top of the pack, but they're all basically built around the healer archetype. Not that Cleric's are stuck doing only that (far from it), but I suspect that it was the starting place from a design perspective.

Back to the original class, though, what do you think of Druids new cantrip Magic Stone as it pertains to buffing? I would imagine that it could be a good ranged damage improvement for many classes, or even for the party familiar, if allowed.

Thanks for spelling it out! :smallsmile:
Magic Stone as a druid cantrip is pretty good at low levels (damage surpassed only by Shillelagh, but with the best range, 60', of any druid attack cantrip), but unless you get some way to attack multiple times, it doesn't scale in damage - unless you count advancements in casting stat. Unlike Shillelagh (which spells out specifically that it deals magical bludgeoning damage), and despite the name, the damage type looks to be nonmagical bludgeoning damage. That becomes more of a problem too, as levels rise.
I haven't read up on familiars, so how it interacts with them I couldn't say. If the DM feels fine with them chucking pebbles for you (as I assume DM discretion will be the final yardstick here too), it's something for them to do, certainly. It's likely to stick close to some caster anyway for refills. I don't think it will turn things upside down, though. I looked up Apes, feeling a conjured quartet of them might be good stone chuckers, but their own ranged attack is already very similar. Getting some magic stones would be a tiny boost to their capabilities.
I think just about all PCs will have ranged damage to compete or surpass by level 5.
You thought of some trick with it? I'd love to hear it.

[Yorrin]

You thought of some trick with it? I'd love to hear it.

Not particularly, just the idea of a weasel on your shoulder chucking a pebble for an extra 10 damage every turn seemed like a decent buff in exchange for every third bonus action. But Druids get such a good selection of cantrips that it's certainly not for every build/party.

[SharkForce]

magic stone is not a weapon attack. it is a spell attack. therefore, resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapon damage provides no defense against it.

even better, it uses your casting attribute (not the thrower's), and being a spell attack creatures probably automatically count as being proficient. what's more, the range is 60 feet when you throw it with your hand. put it into a sling and it presumably goes as far as the sling allows, and still counts as a spell attack.

[Naanomi]

magic stone is not a weapon attack. it is a spell attack. therefore, resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapon damage provides no defense against it.

even better, it uses your casting attribute (not the thrower's), and being a spell attack creatures probably automatically count as being proficient. what's more, the range is 60 feet when you throw it with your hand. put it into a sling and it presumably goes as far as the sling allows, and still counts as a spell attack.
Can warlock familiars or monkey/ape ranger companions use them?

[hymer]

magic stone is not a weapon attack. it is a spell attack. therefore, resistance or immunity to nonmagical weapon damage provides no defense against it.

I don't dispute that this is a reasonable interpretation. Do you have a quote somewhere that back up the 'spell attack rolls bypass resistance to nonmagical damage'? That would cinch it.


even better, it uses your casting attribute (not the thrower's)

Which is why it's good to give to someone with very weak attacks. But how many of those do you usually have in the party? What else could they be doing in a fight?


and being a spell attack creatures probably automatically count as being proficient.

Probably. Or possibly. Not clearly laid out at any rate. Up to the DM.


what's more, the range is 60 feet when you throw it with your hand. put it into a sling and it presumably goes as far as the sling allows, and still counts as a spell attack.

Sling's range is 30/120. You may get disadvantage. Again, depending on interpretation.

To sum up, it's not exactly clear how this spell really works. But if the DM is going along with all the most beneficial interpretations, it's still only as good as the difference between what the thrower does with MS, and could do without it.


Can warlock familiars or monkey/ape ranger companions use them?

RAW is silent on this, and many other matters pertaining to this spell.


Not particularly, just the idea of a weasel on your shoulder chucking a pebble for an extra 10 damage every turn seemed like a decent buff in exchange for every third bonus action. But Druids get such a good selection of cantrips that it's certainly not for every build/party.

Well, I think druids do very poorly in the combat cantrip department. :smallsmile: And they don't get any way to increase damage from cantrips either.

[SharkForce]

I don't dispute that this is a reasonable interpretation. Do you have a quote somewhere that back up the 'spell attack rolls bypass resistance to nonmagical damage'? That would cinch it.

there are, to my knowledge, no creatures with resistance to nonmagical damage. there are creatures that are resistant (or immune) to nonmagical *weapon* damage, but this is not a weapon. it's a spell.

but let us suppose that it does not, for some unfathomable reason, count as a spell (in spite of explicitly stating that it's a spell attack).

[SliceandDiceKid]

Quick note,
I really appreciated your guide. I'm currently a lvl 5 moon druid. I strongly agree with most of your opinions About the druid but plan to add a little critique when I have more time. Great job. Best guide I've seen so far (not claiming to have seen them all, but there are a few embarrassing and/or far from adequate attempts out there).

Thank you for your time and effort.

[pwykersotz]

It may be worth noting that the Agrimancer's of Gardenar forged mighty battle rakes. This could be a valid role. :smalltongue:

[SharkForce]

there are, to my knowledge, no creatures with resistance to nonmagical damage. there are creatures that are resistant (or immune) to nonmagical *weapon* damage, but this is not a weapon. it's a spell.

but let us suppose that it does not, for some unfathomable reason, count as a spell (in spite of explicitly stating that it's a spell attack).

hmm... just realized that I managed to cut myself off in mid-stream here.

so, what I was going to conclude with is that if you don't consider it to be a spell in spite of being clearly labeled as such, it is clearly an enchanted weapon on the basis that you have a rock (ie an improvised weapon) and have enchanted it. in fact, out of curiosity, is there any place that explicitly says that, say, a longsword +1 is a magical weapon, or is it just assumed that we're not too stupid to figure that out for ourselves?

[hymer]

Quick note,
I really appreciated your guide. I'm currently a lvl 5 moon druid. I strongly agree with most of your opinions About the druid but plan to add a little critique when I have more time. Great job. Best guide I've seen so far (not claiming to have seen them all, but there are a few embarrassing and/or far from adequate attempts out there).

Thank you for your time and effort.

You're welcome, and thank you! I look forward to hearing your disagreements as well. :smallsmile:


hmm... just realized that I managed to cut myself off in mid-stream here.

I did wonder about that. :smallsmile:


so, what I was going to conclude with is that if you don't consider it to be a spell in spite of being clearly labeled as such, it is clearly an enchanted weapon on the basis that you have a rock (ie an improvised weapon) and have enchanted it. in fact, out of curiosity, is there any place that explicitly says that, say, a longsword +1 is a magical weapon, or is it just assumed that we're not too stupid to figure that out for ourselves?

I like the 'enchanted rock' idea better. After all, you can attack with a Magic Stone via a sling attack, obviously not a spell attack. They don't go out of their way to define what a magical weapon is, at least not as far as I know. They wouldn't in this edition, of course. But it becomes a matter of interpretation. If a spell causes someone to fall, is any damage caused by that magical? Probably not. Will resistance to non-magical bludgeoning weapon damage carry over to fall damage? Not by RAW, but the DM may see it differently - I don't think there's any particular resistance to fall damage in the books yet, so how else would you word a rule on it? After all, there are some pretty strange attacks that count as weapon attacks in the MM. What if you cast a spell, like Light, on a weapon, does that mean it is magical? I'm not saying there aren't answers to these questions, merely that they won't all be the same at every table, and that RAW isn't clear here (either).
I'd be a lot happier with certainty in interpretation on Magic Stone if the rest of the spell was more certain. If I had a sense that this is what the one who wrote the spell wanted... But it's so vague, I don't know what s/he wanted.

[Person_Man]

I agree with your assessment, though I would say that (like every full caster) the roles/niches a Druid can effectively fill changes as they gain levels.

At low-levels, its seems like they're best at being a damage sponge (thanks to all the bonus hit points from Wildshape) and scout (Wildshape + Pass Without Trace, plus being Wisdom for Perception, plus access to Enhance Ability). You can fill other roles, but you're not particularly great at them.

At mid-levels, they can be "backup-anything" depending on their spell selection, but lack sufficient spell slots to do anything consistently, and lack the specialized abilities needed to be highly effective at their selected role.

But once you hit mid-high levels you start getting plenty of spell slots and encounter winning spells (Conjure Woodland Beings, Contagion, Freedom of Movement, Animal Shapes, Bones of the Earth, and Investiture of Stone, etc) and you can basically fill any role.


RE: Goodberry and Healing

Goodberry provides efficient non-combat healing. But many DMs (myself included) hate "forcing" a player to spend resources on healing unless they want to do so. So Goodberry can be really important and effective if you're adventuring in the world's largest dungeon or your DM forces a "beat the clock" adventure ("you must rescue the princess by dawn or she dies...") on the PCs. But if the PCs mostly control their own Long Rest schedule, then non-combat healing is not important.