Is this Legal?

[Leathros]

Turns out we have a lvl 12 druid in our party, that becomes a Gargantuan Animal, whenever he feels like, say 4 times per day, wildshapes himself into a large Elephant, and then casts Animal Growth, is this legal?

Also, do the +4 STR from Rage Stacks with the +4 STR from Bull's Strenght?
Each time he adds one size category he gets +8 STR? or is it every 2 categories?

He's pretty much ruining the fights for us, since he's the only one capable of massive destruction in less than 1 round

[Chester]

Turns out we have a lvl 12 druid in our party, that becomes a Gargantuan Animal, whenever he feels like, say 4 times per day, wildshapes himself into a large Elephant, and then casts Animal Growth, is this legal?

Also, do the +4 STR from Rage Stacks with the +4 STR from Bull's Strenght?
Each time he adds one size category he gets +8 STR? or is it every 2 categories?

He's pretty much ruining the fights for us, since he's the only one capable of massive destruction in less than 1 round

Whether it's legal or not, if the whole group feels he's overpowered and nobody is having fun, then you all need to have a conversation with him.

EDIT: The DM could also provide challenges that aren't conducive to such a strategy. Try incorporeal undead that do stat damage, see how the druid's gargantuan animal forms do. ;)

[molten_dragon]

No, it isn't legal.

Level 12 druids can wild shape 4/day, into animal and plant forms up to 12 HD, and sizes from tiny to large. Elephants are huge, so a druid can't wild shape into one until 15th level.

Stacking animal growth with wild shape is legal, so a 15th level druid could wild shape into a huge elephant and then become gargantuan with animal growth. Going up a size category with wild shape doesn't give you STR bonuses, it gives you the STR score of the form you're turning into. Animal growth increases your size 1 category and gives a +8 size bonus to STR.

The STR bonus from rage is a morale bonus, so it stacks with bull's strength which is an enhancement bonus.

Regardless of legality though, if he's causing problems and the game isn't fun for the rest of you, then the DM needs to sit down and have a chat with him and ask him not to do that anymore.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elephant.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rage.htm

[Leathros]

Thing is, when you wild shape, a friend told me that your retain your "humanoid" subtype, and animal growth affects only animals, is that correct?

[Leathros]

Whether it's legal or not, if the whole group feels he's overpowered and nobody is having fun, then you all need to have a conversation with him.

EDIT: The DM could also provide challenges that aren't conducive to such a strategy. Try incorporeal undead that do stat damage, see how the druid's gargantuan animal forms do. ;)

Our DM is sadlty the kind that makes battles look like freaking RPG PC games. Nothing against those, I'm a huge PC Gamer, but I'm playing D&D so I don't freaking have the same experience as with the PC lol

[Namfuak]

Thing is, when you wild shape, a friend told me that your retain your "humanoid" subtype, and animal growth affects only animals, is that correct?

Wild shape takes its typing rules from alternate form since it doesn't override them, and alternate form says you retain your original type and subtype, so it seems you are correct that animal growth won't work with wildshape.

[eggynack]

Thing is, when you wild shape, a friend told me that your retain your "humanoid" subtype, and animal growth affects only animals, is that correct?
This is accurate, ever since the errata at least, though humanoid is in fact a type. You can become a real animal with the spell aspect of the wolf from the spell compendium, but from your post, that's probably not happening. The second issue is that animal growth and the size boost from wild shape don't likely stack. As animal growth states, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," and if you're using wild shape to become bigger, then wild shape is one of those. There's an argument that wild shape is actually an effect that changes form rather than one that changes size, but I generally hold to the other interpretation, because there's no reality in which wild shape isn't increasing your size.

The third issue is a combination of what molten_dragon said, that wild shape caps at large at level 12, and the fact that the player is using this to become gargantuan. You say that he's becoming a large elephant, which is by its nature impossible, but even were he doing so, animal growth would only take him from large to huge, rather than from large to gargantuan. It sounds kinda like he's treating elephants as large up to the exact point that it becomes inconvenient. It's actually possible to get huge forms at 12th, through the use of items or prestige classes, but again, that doesn't sound like what he's doing.

So, no, this isn't rules legal. It is possible to circumvent the first and third issues if you know what you're doing, but the second is a bit of a hard line in the sand. It actually is possible to access gargantuan forms pre-epic as a straight druid, by using megalodon empowerment from stormwrack, but unlike the other things, this can't really be done at this level unless you're pulling something really tricky. It also only increases the size category of possible monsters by one, so you'd need to use some of the aforementioned trickery if you want to get gargantuan forms instead of huge. Hopefully this tones down the crazy druid destruction some, though given the power level of druids, the stuff he could pull off by actually knowing the rules well is significantly crazier than the stuff he's pulling off now by not knowing the rules well.

[Leathros]

That last phrase you wrote, we are safe about it, he does not know the rules, nor wants to learn them, conveniently he forgot to mention that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

Thank you all guys for clarifying this, there has been a major rule-breaking last night as it seems, I was rather curious about how the hell he was getting 46 STR at lvl 12. So again, thank you :D

I'll bring these up with my DM and see what he says

[eggynack]

That last phrase you wrote, we are safe about it, he does not know the rules, nor wants to learn them, conveniently he forgot to mention that "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack."

I figured, given the rampant lack of knowledge. Still, the distance between an incompetent druid and a world rending druid can be pretty tiny sometimes. Especially at that level, just something simple like reading control winds, or blizzard, or finding out you can summon an oread for spontaneous earthquakes as a 6th level spell, except with upside, can be sufficient for craziness. I'd fear that stuff way more than an ultra-elephant, personally, and it all comes in the form of simple single object stuff, instead of complicated combinations that take system mastery to work properly. I mean, even in this particular case, I'd be way more scared of a druid summoning a couple of animals and targeting them and his companion with animal growth than I would be of one targeting themselves and going to town.

[EyethatBinds]

Also, do the +4 STR from Rage Stacks with the +4 STR from Bull's Strenght?
Each time he adds one size category he gets +8 STR? or is it every 2 categories?


Since everyone else has mentioned the other rules ignoring actions of this cheating player, I'd like to examine this one.

Rage is not a druid ability or spell, so I'm not sure where this +4 Str is coming from. But different bonus types stack, same types do not, and untyped bonuses always stack. So a +2 morale bonus to Str, a +4 size bonus, and +4 enhancement bonus would stack for a +10 to Str.

So how is this +4 from rage working?

[Leathros]

Talked to my DM, seems he's bringing the druid down. Hope our party doesen't goes down along lol. Nah, he's like "omg you're right" and I'm all like "READ THE FRIGGIN RULES PEOPLE!".

Anyways, hopefuly this is solved

[eggynack]

Since everyone else has mentioned the other rules ignoring actions of this cheating player, I'd like to examine this one.

Rage is not a druid ability or spell, so I'm not sure where this +4 Str is coming from. But different bonus types stack, same types do not, and untyped bonuses always stack. So a +2 morale bonus to Str, a +4 size bonus, and +4 enhancement bonus would stack for a +10 to Str.

So how is this +4 from rage working?
There's always druidic avenger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger). Also, y'know, just arbitrarily also having levels in barbarian, or having some other caster use rage on you.

Edit: Ooh, also badger forms and the like. Nice.

[Leathros]

Since everyone else has mentioned the other rules ignoring actions of this cheating player, I'd like to examine this one.

Rage is not a druid ability or spell, so I'm not sure where this +4 Str is coming from. But different bonus types stack, same types do not, and untyped bonuses always stack. So a +2 morale bonus to Str, a +4 size bonus, and +4 enhancement bonus would stack for a +10 to Str.

So how is this +4 from rage working?

From a Barbarian lvl, because yes, he also has barbarian and monk lvls, although the DM allowed an alignment check and he can no longer take monk lvls.

[eggynack]

From a Barbarian lvl, because yes, he also has barbarian and monk lvls, although the DM allowed an alignment check and he can no longer take monk lvls.
Monk and barbarian levels make this whole situation a lot less precarious, gotta say.

[Twurps]

From a Barbarian lvl, because yes, he also has barbarian and monk lvls, although the DM allowed an alignment check and he can no longer take monk lvls.

So lvl 12 druid? or 12th level druid/monk/barbarian.
I'm asking because monk/barbarian levels don't count towards the max HD you can wildshape in.

[Leathros]

So lvl 12 druid? or 12th level druid/monk/barbarian.
I'm asking because monk/barbarian levels don't count towards the max HD you can wildshape in.

Jesus I didn't even realized that lol, this guy... I think it's 10Druid 1 and 1 from the other 2

[Twilightwyrm]

Jesus I didn't even realized that lol, this guy... I think it's 10Druid 1 and 1 from the other 2

10th level Druid still gets large Wildshape 4/day, but he now cannot shapeshift into Plants or Tiny animals, or cast 6th level spells. So, assuming the Animal Growth spell still works on him, I would still be careful because, while he cannot wildshape into an Gargantuan Elephant with super high strength, he can very much wildshape into a Huge Dire Bear with with slightly higher strength (Elephant has 30 STR, Dire Bear has 31 STR).

[meschlum]

Besides Animal Growth not being applicable as the druid remains a Humanoid instead of an Animal when wildshaped, you'll note that wildshape tkes 1 standard action to activate, and Animal Growth takes 1 standard action to cast, with Verbal (and S) components.

So unless the druid has the Natural Spell feat (and most druids have it because of this), it can't cast Animal Growth anyway.

So, given the feat and ignoring the type (and size, and hit dice) issues, if the druid is changing for the fight, it's spending two rounds of allowing opponents to act and hit it before being able to contribute. That's a lot of time for things to go wrong, even with the invalid rule interpretions going on. If the druid is staying in wild shape all the time, it makes it somewhat harder to communicate... and that can be rather critical too!

[eggynack]

So unless the druid has the Natural Spell feat (and most druids have it because of this), it can't cast Animal Growth anyway.
Unless this druid is even worse than I'm currently giving him credit for, which is pretty bad, he probably has the feat. Pretty sure my handbook in progress currently lists it as a 6th level class feature, because it's so ridiculously important/ubiquitous.


So, given the feat and ignoring the type (and size, and hit dice) issues, if the druid is changing for the fight, it's spending two rounds of allowing opponents to act and hit it before being able to contribute. That's a lot of time for things to go wrong, even with the invalid rule interpretions going on. If the druid is staying in wild shape all the time, it makes it somewhat harder to communicate... and that can be rather critical too!
Communication issues can be made into non-issues with a pearl of speech, if you want, and time for wild shape issues can be made trivial with a mantle of the beast. Still, a round spent self buffing is a decent amount of time, and a number of rounds spent using that self buff to beat face instead of destroying the world with spells is an even longer amount of time.

Edit:
He can very much wildshape into a Huge Dire Bear with with slightly higher strength (Elephant has 30 STR, Dire Bear has 31 STR).
Or, y'know, not, given all the many rules issues.

[EyethatBinds]

Why would this guy level dip into barbarian AND monk? They're not even close to the same thematically, don't offer much additional power, and bog down access to spellcasting.

So in addition to outright cheating, his build is terrible. This reminds me of my first character (though I contend a Rogue 2, Barbarian 4, Fighter 10 is pretty good for my first 3.5 character) only he's pretty much ignoring any rules inconvenient to him.

I'd level drain him back to first.

[Urpriest]

From a Barbarian lvl, because yes, he also has barbarian and monk lvls, although the DM allowed an alignment check and he can no longer take monk lvls.

There's no such thing as alignment checks. What would you add to one? Alignment isn't a number.

[Zaq]

So in addition to outright cheating, his build is terrible.

While a Druid 10 / Barb 1 / Monk 1 is notably less powerful than a Druid 12, it's still a character with ten levels of Druid power. Yes, he's measurably worse than a straight Druid, but I'd hesitate to go so far as to call his build "terrible" unless he's in a party of Artificers and StP Erudites, which doesn't seem to be the case.

[eggynack]

While a Druid 10 / Barb 1 / Monk 1 is notably less powerful than a Druid 12, it's still a character with ten levels of Druid power. Yes, he's measurably worse than a straight Druid, but I'd hesitate to go so far as to call his build "terrible" unless he's in a party of Artificers and StP Erudites, which doesn't seem to be the case.
True enough. Notably, only one of the crazy druid things I mentioned, spontaneous oreads, is outside of his level range. Druid 9 actually represents a pretty serious spike in druidic capabilities, offering both 5th level spells, one of the best druid spell levels there is, and the first real feat you can use after wild shape, which if you're after serious power usually means a form adding feat (though probably doesn't in this case). This is maybe even more true in the potentially book limited game that this seems to be, both because a number of the power 5th's are in core, and because in core, large wild shape is where you start getting access to the good forms for both flight and combat. Not having 6th level spells can be a pretty big downside, but even a 10th level druid is likely more powerful than his 12th level compatriots.

[Bronk]

Just throwing this out there, but if this other player only has ten levels in druid, he can't wild shape into a 11HD elephant without the help of at a magic item like the 'wild shape amulet'. Something for your DM to think about.

[eggynack]

Just throwing this out there, but if this other player only has ten levels in druid, he can't wild shape into a 11HD elephant without the help of at a magic item like the 'wild shape amulet'. Something for your DM to think about.
Also true. So many rules issues in such a small space. It's one sentence with about five separate conflicts with the rules.

[atemu1234]

Our DM is sadlty the kind that makes battles look like freaking RPG PC games. Nothing against those, I'm a huge PC Gamer, but I'm playing D&D so I don't freaking have the same experience as with the PC lol

And here I am having just yesterday gotten angry with a PC for asking if attacking one monster would "aggro" a monster in another room.

[Azrael9986]

Monk requires you to be lawful.
Barbarian requires you to be any nonlawful.
so this too. no monk+barbar bs.
So the only way this character would work would be any nonlawful with some sort of neutral or lawful neutral. losing one of its classes.

[Troacctid]

Monk requires you to be lawful.
Barbarian requires you to be any nonlawful.
so this too. no monk+barbar bs.
So the only way this character would work would be any nonlawful with some sort of neutral or lawful neutral. losing one of its classes.

You don't lose Monk abilities if you shift alignments, you just can't take more Monk levels. Which, since you already can't go back to Monk after multiclassing out of it, isn't actually a drawback.

[Arbane]

I see the rules-lawyers have already been calling out OBJECTION!s to this guy, so I'll just comment on this:


EDIT: The DM could also provide challenges that aren't conducive to such a strategy. Try incorporeal undead that do stat damage, see how the druid's gargantuan animal forms do. ;)

No need to go that far. Low ceilings and narrow tunnels should be enough for a start.

[icefractal]

To be a bit of a devil's advocate, I don't think the "size increases not stacking" thing is all that clear cut. You certainly couldn't combine, for example, Righteous Might and Animal Growth. But Wild Shape doesn't increase your size by N categories, like those do, it turns you into a new form that might be a different size than your typical one. Also, not a spell. So while I could see the argument for it not combining with size increases from spells, I could also see the argument for it working.

Of course, Animal Growth doesn't work anyway - but TBF, if he's looking at the PHB instead of the extensive web of Wild Shape / Polymorph errata, I believe it does change your type.

Anyway, if he's wrecking the game, that's the issue you need to bring up. But I wouldn't automatically assume the worst of him in every aspect.

[SinsI]

The second issue is that animal growth and the size boost from wild shape don't likely stack. As animal growth states, "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack," and if you're using wild shape to become bigger, then wild shape is one of those. There's an argument that wild shape is actually an effect that changes form rather than one that changes size, but I generally hold to the other interpretation, because there's no reality in which wild shape isn't increasing your size.
You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".

Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.

[emeraldstreak]

Wild Shape and Animal Growth stack.


Subtypes have no bearing on Animal Growth's legality, it's the type that matters.

[lord_khaine]

He could still not have turned into an elephant though..

And in the SRD it does call how how he dont get the animal type but retains his own.

[Bronk]

You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".

Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.

Also, wild shape only says you become animal in a way that functions as the alternate form special ability. Since alternate form doesn't change either your type or your subtype, and you retain your 'natural form', you only appear to be an animal. Because 'animal growth' can only be cast on animals, a wild shaped druid is still an invalid target for the spell.

[ApologyFestival]

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.
What is a magical effect? The term "magical effect" isn't explicitly defined, thanks to d20 RPGs being notoriously badly edited. Wild shape is a supernatural ability. As a point in favour of it being a magical effect, it is suppressed by an antimagic field. However, I wouldn't consider a supernatural ability to be a magical effect.

The "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" clause, to me, seems intended to prevent the stacking of spells like enlarge person, greater enlarge person, and divine might.

[eggynack]

You are wrong here. Only effects that explicitly increase your size do not stack. If increase in size is a side effect of some other effect(in this case, of becoming an animal), it is not a "magical effect that increase size".
As was noted, you're adding in the word explicitly here. Wild shape is a magical effect, given that it's a supernatural ability, and it increases size, because you're using it to increase size. Simple as that.


Wild shape also explicitly says that you become an animal - and animals are valid target for Animal Growth.
That was true, once, when wild shape was based off of the polymorph rules. Since the errata, however, wild shape has been based off of alter form, and is type preserving as a result.

[SinsI]

There is no mention of 'explicitly' in the rules for any of these size changing spells. They only say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." If you use wild shape, which is a magical effect, to increase your size, no other magic will stack with that.

Also, wild shape only says you become animal in a way that functions as the alternate form special ability. Since alternate form doesn't change either your type or your subtype, and you retain your 'natural form', you only appear to be an animal. Because 'animal growth' can only be cast on animals, a wild shaped druid is still an invalid target for the spell.

"Explicitly" is the default rule of the game - it must either have a name like "magical size increasing effect" - or have a description that says "increases size".
Otherwise, everything can cause everything: Fireball that was changed through Energy Substitution to deal cold damage causes you to drop your vial of alchemist's fire that explodes and deals fire damage? It is affected by Energy Substitution too, so your alchemist's fire deals cold damage to you...

What if you "increased your size" by merging with your horse to become a centaur?
What if you switched souls with somebody bigger than you?
What if "magical effect" made you "increase size" by compelling you to overeat? Would it still not stack?

And your misreading of "wild shape" rule is incredibly "creative". Wild shape directly says "You become an animal". Forms, creature types or subtypes - all of those are completely irrelevant. When you are wild shaped you are an animal.
Animal growth has target: animal. Thus, it works on someone wild shaped.
It can't be written any more clear than that.

[eggynack]

"Explicitly" is the default rule of the game - it must either have a name like "magical size increasing effect" - or have a description that says "increases size".
Magical size increasing effect isn't a game term. Even enlarge person is only implicitly a magical effect that increases size. As this isn't a game defined term, we default to base definitions, and wild shape is magic, an effect, and size increasing.

Otherwise, everything can cause everything: Fireball that was changed through Energy Substitution to deal cold damage causes you to drop your vial of alchemist's fire that explodes and deals fire damage? It is affected by Energy Substitution too, so your alchemist's fire deals cold damage to you...
No. Spell is a game defined term, and metamagic works in very specifically defined ways.


What if you "increased your size" by merging with your horse to become a centaur?
If you are doing that based on a lingering magical effect, then it doesn't work. If you actually just merged, through magic or otherwise, and now you're just a centaur, things should be fine.

What if you switched souls with somebody bigger than you?
Same as before, with the caveat that there is additional juice working in favor of this working on the basis of the definition of what you are. It's a weird one though, I'll admit, but it's not as if the rules aren't sometimes weird.


What if "magical effect" made you "increase size" by compelling you to overeat? Would it still not stack?
That's fine. The magical effect isn't itself increasing your size, and the size increase is instantaneous and unrelated to magic.


And your misreading of "wild shape" rule is incredibly "creative". Wild shape directly says "You become an animal". Forms, creature types or subtypes - all of those are completely irrelevant. When you are wild shaped you are an animal.
Animal growth has target: animal. Thus, it works on someone wild shaped.
It can't be written any more clear than that.
Seriously? Did you just ignore the place where I told you to read the errata? Read the errata. It doesn't work like this anymore. Your rules understanding was once correct, but it is now out of date.

[SinsI]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid or things like Awaken that require additional qualifiers.


Magical size increasing effect isn't a game term. Even enlarge person is only implicitly a magical effect that increases size. As this isn't a game defined term, we default to base definitions, and wild shape is magic, an effect, and size increasing.
No. It is a game term, though loosely defined. For example, Righteous Might wouldn't stack with Enlarge Person:
"This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution."

A magical effect would have to have that kind of explicit text to count as "increasing size".

Note that it also explicitly has the "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack" note. Any spell or effect with such a note is a "magical affect that increases size".

[eggynack]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid.
What are you talking about right now? The errata in this case fundamentally altered wild shape such that it doesn't alter your type. Animal growth is based on type, because that's the only thing that type based targeting could be based on.



No. It is a game term, though loosely defined. For example, Righteous Might wouldn't stack with Enlarge Person:
"This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution."

A magical effect would have to have that kind of explicit text to count as "increasing size".
I can't really see what rules text, if any, is giving you the impression that what you're saying is the case. Wild shape increases your size, when you use it to do that. The game doesn't need to explicitly say, "If you're a medium creature that's using large wild shape, then you're increasing size," because that's just implied by the fact that it's a thing that's occurring.

[Telonius]

Away from my books at the moment, but would it be possible to get the bigger size with a Goliath and one level of Barbarian? I can't remember if Mountain Rage gives you +1 size, or just Large size...

[torrasque666]

Errata and other specific details don't matter. The spell still says "you become an animal", not "you take on animal shape" or anything like that, thus you are an animal for anything and everything that targets animals - Animal Growth, Speak With Animals, Handle Animal skill, etc.
Errata affects only how other spells and effects (i.e. that target humanoids) affect Wild Shaped druid or things like Awaken that require additional qualifiers.


Lets eh... lets take a look at wildshape, using the SRD, since its 99.99999% of the time up to date on eratta(which are rule changes by the way) and is OGL meaning direct copypasta is legal.


At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.
Ok, so it keys off of Alternate Form. Lets look at that.


Alternate FormA creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:


The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Thus, a Wild-Shaped Human Druid is still a Humanoid(Human) creature, not an Animal creature. Thus, things that target animals such as animal growth, do not identify it as a valid target. So Calm Person is still valid, but not Calm Animal.

[Twurps]

It gains the size of it's new form
That pretty much settles the 'size increasing effect' discussion as wel.


Away from my books at the moment, but would it be possible to get the bigger size with a Goliath and one level of Barbarian? I can't remember if Mountain Rage gives you +1 size, or just Large size...

It makes you large. So the elephant would shrink in size :smallyuk: (if that stacks, I'm NOT starting that discussion...)

[emeraldstreak]

Read the errata. It doesn't work like this anymore. Your rules understanding was once correct, but it is now out of date.


No sane DM uses this part of the errata.

[eggynack]

No sane DM uses this part of the errata.
Why, exactly, is that the case? My understanding of the "new" rule is that it doesn't have a significant positive impact on druid power, and it might actually be detrimental. The whole point of the thing, after all, is to distance the druid from the screwed up polymorph rules. Point is, I'm either insane or non-existent, because I would absolutely use that part of the errata.

[Telonius]

I don't use that part of the errata ... but only because Druids in my game are all the PHB2 variant. If I allowed regular Druids, I'd use the errata.

[SinsI]

Lets eh... lets take a look at wildshape, using the SRD, since its 99.99999% of the time up to date on eratta(which are rule changes by the way) and is OGL meaning direct copypasta is legal.

OK. Let's take a look at SRD:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day.
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability polymorph spell, except as noted here.
"As noted here" includes the text that is written directly before it. Thus, you become "a small or medium animal", explicitly overriding whatever limitations polymorph has.

[eggynack]

OK. Let's take a look at SRD:

"As noted here" includes the text that is written directly before it. Thus, you become "a small or medium animal", explicitly overriding whatever limitations polymorph has.
What you've bolded doesn't indicate type. It just says you can become an animal, and doesn't give the specific constraints of that ability. A druid can turn himself into an animal. They just don't end up with the type, and that's how you determine targeting.