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The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 08:56 AM
Was talking to my sister about some of the games I've played, and when she found out I've played a few female characters she's all, 'Ewww... thats just... eww, I couldn't do it.'

It never even occurred to me there would be something strange about it, as I write alot, be the main character male or female. I just see it as writing the part of a character in a story. Now, granted, I very much try to keep away from any overly romantic scenes between my heroine and the hero, but I work it into their background in what I hope is in a realistic fashion.

One had a husband killed by the king she has no devoted her life to destroying. Why would she wanna get friendly with another guy when she's still getting over the father of her child?

Another, she was from a very family oriented family, and in the day she worked as a jewlery maker, but at night or in times of need she would put on elaborate dress and deck herself out in jewelry and like to play the part of the 'Crystal Goddess'. Well, she made sure that no other men saw her like that as it would intimidate them and then how would she ever win a husband. She went into the group to give aid, and so was forced to keep up her guise, so she wasn't going to get a feller that way.

Then one I'm playing now might possibly be willing to find someone, but she's a cleric and comes from a sect of strict values and her guy would have to follow the code of her people, etc.

Not a problem!

So, anyways, what do you think of playing characters of the opposite gender?

Edit: (and I don't mean dressing up like them... that IS creepy, just playing one)

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 09:03 AM
I don't like it for two reasons:

1) Most do Not do it well.

2) I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to the question: Why?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 09:06 AM
I don't like it for two reasons:

1) Most do Not do it well.
That one I'll grant you.


2) I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to the question: Why?
As I mentioned above, its like writing for a female character in a book. Some concepts are just better played by a gal.

Why not?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 09:07 AM
If it's done well, it's not a problem - except in the case where there's a romantic scene. In person, at least between guys, it becomes exceedingly awkward, in my experience. I've found that that awkwardness doesn't arise over online play-by-post games.

But then, there's always this... (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050819.html)

Morty
2007-04-10, 09:07 AM
Why isn't there an "I honestly couldn't roleplay character with gender opposite to mine" option?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 09:10 AM
Why isn't there an "I honestly couldn't roleplay character with gender opposite to mine" option?
Because the bloody poll won't let me use more than 25 words per option. Barely managed to get in what I did :smallannoyed:

They've also changed it so polls can only be added within 5 minutes of posting. So if you try to edit it to shorten it, by the time you are done its too late to do a poll.

LoopyZebra
2007-04-10, 09:11 AM
Why isn't there an "I honestly couldn't roleplay character with gender opposite to mine" option?

Exactly. I would do it, but stopped when I realized that I simply couldn't roleplay it.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:11 AM
I assume you mean "playing a character of the opposite gender to you" rather than "roleplaying whilst dressed as a person of the opposite gender".

I've played women. I also played a transvestite spy at one point.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-10, 09:11 AM
same as mort.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 09:12 AM
As I mentioned above, its like writing for a female character in a book. Some concepts are just better played by a gal.

...no, I don't see it. I can't think of a single concept that can't be played by both genders as long as the right attitude for the character is selected. Unless for some reason the character's physical... qualities have to be involved (twitch).

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:13 AM
Exactly. I would do it, but stopped when I realized that I simply couldn't roleplay it.


I know that there are a lot of good answers to this, but I'm going to ask it again because somebody has to:

Why do people find it impossible to play a character of the opposite sex, but not impossible to play, say, a character who lives in a different time, holds totally different moral values and is in fact not human?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 09:15 AM
I assume you mean "playing a character of the opposite gender to you" rather than "roleplaying whilst dressed as a person of the opposite gender".
Yes, such as I said boldly in my post:

" So, anyways, what do you think of playing characters of the opposite gender?

Edit: (and I don't mean dressing up like them... that IS creepy, just playing one)"

I mean, I editted before anyone even brought it up because I realized at least someone wouldn't actually read it.

Mr Croup
2007-04-10, 09:15 AM
I was thinking I was about to read a thread about playing in actual drag, not just playing cross gender. Oh well. Usually I don't play female characters outside of NPCs, simply because I am male, and feel that I can not portray a female character as well.

With people I don't know, I shy away from people playing opposite their gender because it is usually done poorly, and the character ends up becoming a caricature. I do have a couple of male friends that sometimes play female characters, and they do it well. One almost always plays female characters (and has larped in drag a number of times), but then they're currently going through the gender reassignment process.

If someone wants to play opposite their gender for a legitimate reason, I don't see any problem with it. If they want to do it so they can play an exaggerated stereotype, then it's a problem, because that's just bad roleplaying.


Edit: (and I don't mean dressing up like them... that IS creepy, just playing one)
Are you saying that crossdressing is creepy? Or just having someone dress up as their character in a tabletop game is creepy?

Telonius
2007-04-10, 09:16 AM
I'm assuming we're talking tabletop, and not LARP, right? :smallbiggrin: I've played a few female characters myself. Interesting that writing has already been mentioned - I occasionally play women because it helps me with my book. I can't be a good writer if I can't understand a female character well enough to play her.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 09:18 AM
Why do people find it impossible to play a character of the opposite sex, but not impossible to play, say, a character who lives in a different time, holds totally different moral values and is in fact not human?

Game circumstances are fictional.

People of the other gender are quite real.

In the first case, we have no basis for comparison anyways. In the second, we do.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 09:18 AM
I'm assuming we're talking tabletop, and not LARP, right? :smallbiggrin:
Err, yeah. Actually, I've never even played tabletop, just online, so maybe thats why I have no difficulty.


I've played a few female characters myself. Interesting that writing has already been mentioned - I occasionally play women because it helps me with my book. I can't be a good writer if I can't understand a female character well enough to play her.
Precisely my thoughts. I consider it no different than DMing an NPC female.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:19 AM
...no, I don't see it. I can't think of a single concept that can't be played by both genders as long as the right attitude for the character is selected. Unless for some reason the character's physical... qualities have to be involved (twitch).

It depends very much on the setting. In default D&D, where settings have arbitrarily enforced gender neutrality, it's not going to make much difference, and indeed you'll look stupid if you try to make an issue of it:

"Yes, I am a woman, but I am also a powerful warrior, do you find that strange?"
"Umm ... well ... no, not really, in fact half of our town militia are female. And the head of the local order of Paladins is a woman."
"Oh."

On the other hand in a more "realistic" setting there's a lot you can do with gender roles.

And of course sometimes it works the other way. I played in a modern-day conspiracy-type game, and one of the (female) players transgendered because her character was ex-military and she explicitly didn't want to have to play the "I was a woman but I was in the army like a man" card.

enderrocksonall
2007-04-10, 09:22 AM
The only experience I have with this is one of the guys in my old group insisted on always playing a girl. Without fail, no matter what the setting or the race, he was always playing a girl. We all chalked it up to him being sexually confused. Besides, it lent itself to some fun pranks and some get out of jail free cards, which they needed a lot.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-10, 09:26 AM
I'm polymorphous enough in real life that it's never really been a problem for me to play either gender, even if romance is involved.

It's actually a more interesting challenge, in some ways; nobody's going to gainsay your particular take on the half-orc (well, not for the most part) but if you play female badly, the female members of your group are going to call you on it- so you need to make a concerted effort to keep things realistic and 'in-character'.

I for one enjoy that kind of challenge; and I enjoy my female Half-giant Totemist, too.

Penguinsushi
2007-04-10, 09:26 AM
Eh, roleplaying is roleplaying. I mean, you're *already* pretending to be someone/something you're not - exactly what traits that entity has are kind of irrelevant. I'm generally the GM for games that I'm in and some of my favorite npc's to roleplay have been female (near the top of that list is, of course, Tessa, the 7-year-old ADHD coure eladrin sorceress).

I do notice a couple things: First off, in my experience, way more male gamers want to play female characters than vice versa. Secondly, I'll go along with Cyborg Pirate and say many don't do it well - I've witnessed some pretty sexist behavior in the way some guys play female characters...

~PS

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 09:28 AM
I play female characters, and I've never had anyone say I wasn't good at it.

I've had people tell me I was good at it (people of both genders have told me this, so I know it wasn't just a one sided perspective), so I assume that I have little to no problem actually pulling it off. (You know, that comment, considering the discussion, sounds really really wrong...)

I understand that some people can't, but I also have to say that it confuses me. What really is it that makes it so hard for some people to get into the right mindset? I've seen people struggle, but... I just don't quite get why.

*shrug*

But suffice to say, yes, I do play female characters. All those female avis in my sig? My characters.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-10, 09:30 AM
I've played women. I also played a transvestite spy at one point.

Ugh... I did that once too.

I would play female characters I just prefer not to be a PC. That and a lot of men in computer games look stupid so I end up playing a female character (ie KOTOR has only 1 decent male head and I don't want my Str 8 NWN wizard to be built like that).

I hate female characters who are trying to prove they can go a man's job. I wish they'd get over it.

I've always wanted to play a male Amazon house-husband, just for fun.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 09:31 AM
...no, I don't see it. I can't think of a single concept that can't be played by both genders as long as the right attitude for the character is selected. Unless for some reason the character's physical... qualities have to be involved (twitch).Disagree with this. Grandpappy Ogg would not be the same as Nanny Ogg. Julia Caesar would be at least slightly different. Does a lot of this have to do with social context? Of course. It has a lot to do with culture-specific archetypes as well. But all of us are influenced by these factors as well. You'll find it a lot easier to play the "Caesar" archetype as Julius. It's not impossible to do it as Julia, and there's nothing wrong with trying. But there's likewise nothing wrong with playing it as a male character even though you happen to be female.

Deme
2007-04-10, 09:38 AM
I play a lot of male characters, and I have a friend who almost exclusively plays male characters and is a girl. And there usually is at least one romantic sub-plot per campaign, and it usually involves her opposite one of the other girls in the group, since the only guy doesn't want to play a female. I think she does a pretty good guy.

I do think that some of my concepts work better for a man or a woman. I can't quite explain why that is, but when I'm building a concept, and I'm beggining to get the shreds of backstory or personality in my hands...I usually decide whether the character is male or female then, based on what he or she feels like. I don't see anything wrong with it or wierd about it either way.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 09:38 AM
I've always wanted to play a male Amazon house-husband, just for fun.

One of our freeform LARPs was set in a quasi-Arabian society with reversed gender roles. My character got married halfway through the game and spend the rest of his time walking five paces behind his wife.

The reason that worked, however, is because it was a break from tradition. Indeed the entire "female dominated society" concept stemmed from an early argument amongst the GM team that went something like this:

Male GM: And I don't want the setting to be artificially PC. It always annoys me when they do that in fantasy worlds.
Female GM: It might annoy you, but it sucks to play a female character in a world with realistic gender roles, and since this a LARP most of our female players will be playing female characters.
Male GM: Nonsense, there's lots of things you can do with a female character.
Female GM: Maybe, but we've all already done them all. If you think playing a second class citizen is so much fun, why don't you do it.

Saph
2007-04-10, 09:39 AM
Done it, am doing it, would do it again.

You have to expect the jokes from the other members of the group, but that's just par for the course. As for why . . . well, why not? I'm a professional novelist. I spend half my working life writing characters of the opposite gender. I wouldn't be much good as a writer if I couldn't do it convincingly, now would I? :)

I do stay away from sex and romance while doing it, for obvious reasons. But then, the same applies no matter what character I'm playing. As an old gamer once told me, "Sex is for real life, killing is for RPGs. You get in all kinds of trouble once you start mixing them up."

- Saph

ObsidianRose
2007-04-10, 09:39 AM
I personally love playing female characters. My current one, Galemar Treefist, is a half-ogre barbarian/druid. Her father was an adventuring ogre, but he was killed while she was young, so she was raised by her mother, who hated her. Galemar was always called the ugly ogre, which she couldn't say through tusks, so she refers to herself in the third person as Olga. Her mother sent her to school, but she was always picked on. The boys would called her stupid, while the girls would call her ugly or fat. And whenever she'd hear a homophobic comment in play, she'd remember being laughed at and would rage while going into a flashback. Rather fun character, and the running joke is that Olga had more testosterone in her body than me.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 09:43 AM
I prefer playing females, mostly because I find them so much easier to portray what I want with.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 09:49 AM
I prefer playing females, mostly because I find them so much easier to portray what I want with.
I've noticed that too, but I have no idea why that is. :smallconfused:

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 09:52 AM
Disagree with this. Grandpappy Ogg would not be the same as Nanny Ogg. Julia Caesar would be at least slightly different. Does a lot of this have to do with social context? Of course. It has a lot to do with culture-specific archetypes as well. But all of us are influenced by these factors as well. You'll find it a lot easier to play the "Caesar" archetype as Julius. It's not impossible to do it as Julia, and there's nothing wrong with trying. But there's likewise nothing wrong with playing it as a male character even though you happen to be female.

No, I still don't see it. What you are discribing is indeed based completely on social context and culture specific archtypes, which in turn can differ greatly from person to person and region to region, i.e. it is not a very strong argument for it. It's like saying you do it because you like it: it is a completely valid position and opinion, but not a strong position from which to convince someone.

In my opinion, Julius can just as well be Julia when you're just working from a character concept, ignoring what setting for the moment.





PS: Maybe it's just me, but reading this thread, I'm getting a light vibe that many people here don't encounter strong women much. Might that be the reason certain concepts require certain genders in your minds here?

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 09:54 AM
I prefer playing females, mostly because I find them so much easier to portray what I want with.

Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 09:54 AM
I prefer playing females, mostly because I find them so much easier to portray what I want with.

Wait, huh? I guess I'm just not understanding your sentence there, Fax.
What ^ said.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 09:55 AM
Heh, there is a character I wrote for the Design Contest this month who is 70 years old and has had to since she was an adolescent feed a fey prince infant who never ages.

You tell ME how thats to be played by a guy.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-10, 09:57 AM
Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?
'Prefer' and 'require' are seperate concepts.

Also, referencing strong women- there are more strong women in fantasy than in most genres. Consider Aribeth, in neverwinter nights, or Alustriel in Forgotten Realms, or the female queens and such in Eberron.

Also, my last girlfriend could take me three pins out of five, so don't talk to me about strong women, buddy.

Consider for a moment: perhaps the character concept involved that works better as a woman is....a strong woman?

Addendum: While technically, and indeed in most respects, no concept requires a certain gender, there are some that, in the context of a given game or player, will function more easily and better as either male or female. Dashing pirate captain could be gender-neutral, but bereaved parent has a very different feeling depending on gender.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 09:58 AM
PS: Maybe it's just me, but reading this thread, I'm getting a light vibe that many people here don't encounter strong women much. Might that be the reason certain concepts require certain genders in your minds here?
*snicker*
*laughs*

Even if I don't encounter strong women much, my own character, Aesa, proves that I have no problem with them being in the "strong" role.
Seriously though: female characters and male characters should be different to play, at least generally. There are differences, and while those differences may not amount to much in some cases, or in some situations, they are there.
I will agree that there is a fair bit of stereotype that may play into this, but thats also a difference that will be in game. I don't believe you'll ever find a society where women and men are viewed to have no differences between them- even if they profess to be that way.

Saph
2007-04-10, 09:58 AM
Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?

Being female, perhaps?

- Saph

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 10:00 AM
Heh, there is a character I wrote for the Design Contest this month who is 70 years old and has had to feed a fey prince infant who never ages since she was an adolescent.

You tell ME how thats to be played by a guy.

As I mentioned, physical characteristics are the only convincing reason I can think of to play another gender.

And even then, breast-feeding is not the only way to feed an infant. I think a guy could perform as this character just as well.

Em
2007-04-10, 10:04 AM
Weird thread. As someone else said, roleplaying is roleplaying. If you're unable to play something you're not, then maybe a game where you play a character isn't for you??

I'm chaotic to the core and could play a Lawful Anal character, I'm a human and could play someone of a different species... methinks these make far more difference in play than your character's gender!

Kind of worried about the people who can't play the opposite gender - are you seriously saying that it's more difficult to realistically portray someone of the opposite sex than it is to portray, say, a 300-year-old evil elf with magical powers??

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 10:05 AM
'Prefer' and 'require' are seperate concepts.

Regardless, I'm still curious.


Also, referencing strong women- there are more strong women in fantasy than in most genres. Consider Aribeth, in neverwinter nights, or Alustriel in Forgotten Realms, or the female queens and such in Eberron.

Exactly. In fantasy, heroic women are often strong and accepted. So a guy playing a women in such a setting for the reason of having his character need to deal with stereotypes doesn't make much sence. He might as well play a man.


Also, my last girlfriend could take me three pins out of five, so don't talk to me about strong women, buddy.

Good good, but I'm still getting that vibe from other posters.


Consider for a moment: perhaps the character concept involved that works better as a woman is....a strong woman?

This is directed @Saph too: Circular reasoning (I play a woman to play a woman) does not a convincing argument make.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 10:05 AM
Cyborg Pirate, it sounds like you're actively opposed to the idea of people playing different-gender characters. Why?

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 10:06 AM
As I mentioned, physical characteristics are the only convincing reason I can think of to play another gender.

And even then, breast-feeding is not the only way to feed an infant. I think a guy could perform as this character just as well.
When you spend your whole life running from the forces of faerie its generally not easy to find a convenient cow or formula supplier. I suppose she could just squeeze goodberry juice down him.

But anyways, sure, you might, possibly, play this person as a guy, but it would be unwieldy, unlikely, and you'd be stretching things to the point of 'why bother?'

Little_Rudo
2007-04-10, 10:07 AM
PS: Maybe it's just me, but reading this thread, I'm getting a light vibe that many people here don't encounter strong women much. Might that be the reason certain concepts require certain genders in your minds here?

I usually don't post much here, but this amused me, since I come from a family of feminists and still agree with what other posters are saying about some concepts working better for certain genders. It's not necessarily a dominant male / submissive female thing for me... I mean, I love playing a Barbarian/Bear Warrior, but I insist she be female. Sure, male bears are strong, but it's the mother bear who's infamous for her strength when you get between her and her cub.

Anyways, as for the topic, I ocassionally play male characters, though not often. I avoid it for the same reason I avoid playing characters of certain minorities: I'm worried I'll resort to cliches and stereotypes to play them effectively. That said, I'm currently hammering out a male duelist PC who runs a brothel. Good times.

storybookknight
2007-04-10, 10:08 AM
I've played female characters before; generally speaking it works out pretty well, though playing them in tabletop can get a little awkward. As an example, I DM. Many of my NPCs are female. (Many are also male). Occasionally, people pursue relationships with NPCs. This can often be uncomfortable trying to roleplay IRL, as you might well imagine, so mostly I only cross genders online.

Though I haven't had much chance recently, huh. I guess I have too much of a knight-in-shining-armor bias when writing D&D characters that I would like to play. That settles it! My next one's a girl.

Generally, when I do cross gender lines, I think I do it reasonably realistically... partially because my sister and I have been good friends for ages, and I've seen a lot of the alternate perspective.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 10:10 AM
When you spend your whole life running from the forces of faerie its generally not easy to find a convenient cow. I suppose she could just squeeze a goodberry juice down him.

But anyways, sure, you might, possibly, play this person as a guy, but it would be unwieldy, unlikely, and you'd be stretching things to the point of 'why bother?'

Ahhh, actively running from trouble. Yep, then it would be a lot easier to play it as a woman. But that why I already said that physical characteristics (in this case breastfeeding) are the only convincing reason I see to play an opposite gender.


Cyborg Pirate, it sounds like you're actively opposed to the idea of people playing different-gender characters. Why?

Interesting. Thus far, I've done nothing but seek a convincing reason for me to change my opinion. What gives you the idea that I am actively opposing it?

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 10:14 AM
I usually don't post much here, but this amused me, since I come from a family of feminists and still agree with what other posters are saying about some concepts working better for certain genders. It's not necessarily a dominant male / submissive female thing for me... I mean, I love playing a Barbarian/Bear Warrior, but I insist she be female. Sure, male bears are strong, but it's the mother bear who's infamous for her strength when you get between her and her cub.

And now, a poetry reading: :smallbiggrin:


When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

The Female of the Species (http://www.potw.org/archive/potw96.html)

Fhaolan
2007-04-10, 10:28 AM
In the two groups I regularly play with, one has three women and three men, and the other has four women and three men [These are their RL genders, not their characters]. We have all been in plays, movies, etc., so technically we're all semi-professional actors.

If you're not willing to play different genders or orientation, you're not going to get very far in an acting career. True, some of us are better at it than others, but if you say to them 'But don't you have a problem playing a man/woman/whatever?' They'd shrug and say 'It's part of the job.'

Adding to that, I spent a good number of years immersed in a culture where gender and orientation was fluid and changable. The normal orientation was to be 'Bi', transgenders and transvestites were common and not even remarked upon. I was considered to be the weird one out, because I was the only sociable white hetro male there. There were other hetro males there (as well as hetro females), but they weren't 'sociable'. Meaning they were prone to panic attacks or irrational violence (this includes many of the hetro females. The straight women tended to be a cruel and bloodthirsty lot.)

There are physical and biological differences that do make women different from men. However, the differences are seriously turbocharged by social and cultural pressures. Western culture has emphasized the gender differences to the point that many people honestly believe that the other gender is an alien species, completely unintelligible, and in many cases they believe that the other gender is irredeemably stupid. If you can get past the centuries of conditioned bias, and that very strange squick factor that truely is cultural conditioning to enforce gender roles, it's really not that difficult. Spend some time in Thailand, some African countries, and other non-Western places. And I mean spend time there, don't just visit as a tourist. Unless you immerse yourself in an 'alien' culture, you'll never really learn how much your own culture is affecting your behaviour.

Or for a lighter version of the same experience, just live in certain areas of Toronto, LA, New York, etc. :smallbiggrin: You still really have to *live* there, not just be present physically. I've lost count of the number of people who have told me, 'Oh yeah, I lived there for awhile. Never really understood what was going on.' To which I replied, 'Really? Keep in touch with the friends you made? Did you go to the local hangouts much?' Their reply usually is, "Oh no, I didn't really meet anyone there I would call a 'friend', and I wouldn't be caught dead in any of those places." "Right. That's why you never understood. Congratulations, you've managed to experience nothing, and learn nothing."

Mr Croup
2007-04-10, 10:31 AM
Weird thread. As someone else said, roleplaying is roleplaying. If you're unable to play something you're not, then maybe a game where you play a character isn't for you??

I'm chaotic to the core and could play a Lawful Anal character, I'm a human and could play someone of a different species... methinks these make far more difference in play than your character's gender!

Kind of worried about the people who can't play the opposite gender - are you seriously saying that it's more difficult to realistically portray someone of the opposite sex than it is to portray, say, a 300-year-old evil elf with magical powers??

Honestly, yes I think that it can be more difficult to realistically play a character of a different gender that than it would be to play a "300-year-old evil elf with magical powers." Why? Because the latter is dealing with fictitious characteristics and factors, where as the former is rooted in something real, that being perceived gender roles and the like. It's because it has a connection in reality that can cause it to be difficult or poorly done by many. In the case of the elf, there isn't a real world basis that you can misplay. It's the same reason why I wouldn't play a character in a real world setting from a culture that I am not knowledgeable about, have been exposed to, and am comfortable about. There's too much room to screw up.

All that being said, I'm certainly not against it, and I definitely don't think it is impossible to do. Far from it. I think that it's just that there are a number of people that don't pull it off, and unfortunately they are often the most vivid examples of people playing cross gender characters.

Soniku
2007-04-10, 10:33 AM
I have played both genders before, and although I usually make male characters, by some twist of fate I have played females the most since out of my recent two female and six male characters only the two females survived for more than a RL month, one of the two surviving for over two RL years before the group broke up and she took her rightful place as a goddess in my homebrew universe.

Yes, the campaign ended in ascension :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2007-04-10, 10:35 AM
Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?Boobs?

seriously, there are lots of character concepts that work better, or only can be done as one gender or another, and that's especially true in a world with defined gender roles and issues.

For example, there's a huge difference between playing a female Knight of the Stone in Caithness compared to playing a male knight, even if you're playing a male Knight of the Stone; there are character concepts that require one gender or the other.

Saph
2007-04-10, 10:36 AM
This is directed @Saph too: Circular reasoning (I play a woman to play a woman) does not a convincing argument make.

Why do I need to make an argument to justify it? If you were looking for an explanation, you've gotten several by now. You seem remarkably pushy for someone who's 'just curious' - that crack about the 'vibe' you're getting wasn't exactly friendly.

So to repeat: A character's gender is part of who they are. I don't ask any of my male players why they want to play a female character, any more than why I ask them why they want to play a cleric or why they want to play an elf or why their character is 5'11" rather than 6'2". If that's the character they want to play, that's what they want to play.

- Saph

Jayabalard
2007-04-10, 10:45 AM
This is directed @Saph too: Circular reasoning (I play a woman to play a woman) does not a convincing argument make.You seem to be laboring under the delusion that in order to play a character of one gender instead of another, people need some sort of reason other than "it fits the character better"

My opinion: your coming across as someone who is pretty homophobic and is upset by the very idea of someone playing a character with a gender other than their own actual gender; perhaps it's not the case... but based on other comments, I don't think I'm the only one who's getting that vibe from you.

Lolth
2007-04-10, 10:46 AM
I like playing male PCs. Not because women don't suit certain roles, or that men don't, but because I find it fun. I've been told I play men well, too.

I find it interesting, in online play, if my identity isn't already known, most guys can't pick me out as a woman playing a male PC, but a significant fraction of female players can "spot" me.

I have no theory on this, just observation.

jjpickar
2007-04-10, 10:46 AM
Its just too awkward for me to play the opposite gender. I play D&D for fun, not awkwardness.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-10, 10:47 AM
I'm generally fine with others doing it, but I've encountered several men who do do it and don't do it well, which can get irritating and somewhat creepy.

Personally, I do not. I'm not interested in playing female characters as I know I won't do a good job and I'd feel awkward doing it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 10:49 AM
Interesting. Thus far, I've done nothing but seek a convincing reason for me to change my opinion. What gives you the idea that I am actively opposing it?Because every time someone says "here's why I would do it" you basically tell them that they are wrong? It's one thing to say that you would not choose to play an opposite-gender character. That's your opinion, and I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you SHOULD do it. They are giving reasons why THEY do it, and you come across as not agreeing that they should.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 10:54 AM
For example, there's a huge difference between playing a female Knight of the Stone in Caithness compared to playing a male knight; there are character concepts that require one gender or the other.

But this is wholly setting stereotype dependant.


Why do I need to make an argument to justify it? If you were looking for an explanation, you've gotten several by now. You seem remarkably pushy for someone who's 'just curious' - that crack about the 'vibe' you're getting wasn't exactly friendly.

Firstly, I'm an open minded person, and I don't cling to my opinions tightly. Whenever I can, I test my own opinions for their validity. In this case, I've never warmed up to the idea of playing another gender, and I have stated my reasons for that. However, since this thread was started and has been replied to by people whose work on this board and who's general intelligence I very much enjoy and respect, I see this as an oppertunity to review my own opinion and, if reason enough is found, to change it. That's why I'm actively persuing the possibility of good reasons to play other genders, and why I'm so critical of what is presented.

And about the vibe I'm getting: It's not a crack, and I don't think I presented it as one. It is an observation, and not a negative one. Just one that has roused my curiosity, considering that I've gotten that same vibe before on these boards.

Actually, come to think of it, I do not understand why that observation is being taken so offensively.

MethodicalMeat
2007-04-10, 10:55 AM
I personally haven't done it yet, but I'm actually planning on playing a female character next time I play D&D.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 10:57 AM
Because every time someone says "here's why I would do it" you basically tell them that they are wrong? It's one thing to say that you would not choose to play an opposite-gender character. That's your opinion, and I don't think anyone is trying to tell you that you SHOULD do it. They are giving reasons why THEY do it, and you come across as not agreeing that they should.

I've never said anyone was wrong. I've only said that some arguments were not strong ones. Doesn't make them any less valid, just that they do not convince me to change my opinion on the matter.

The point that sometimes, you do need a gender's physical characteristics (like Tribble's 70 year old woman), I do find a strong argument.

Khantalas
2007-04-10, 11:00 AM
Here's a reason: I play Rashemi females. Why? Because it's a matriarchal magocracy, and having almost absoulte control over the life and death of others in your land (unless another hathran objects) is fun.

I also have a male friend who never plays males. He just can't do it. He can't act as a male, because he is a male, and puts too much of what he thinks of himself as a male into the character. And he does a pretty good job doing that (we think he should have a sex change :smalltongue:).

So, yes, I do play drag.

Jannex
2007-04-10, 11:03 AM
I'm currently playing a cross-gender character, actually. He's the minotaur depicted in my sig. And really, he wouldn't have worked nearly as well as a female. For starters, his background involved elements of father/son tension that play out very differently than father/daughter or mother/daughter dynamics, especially in a minotaur barbarian tribe. Secondly, Tannen just felt male. There was no reason to try to shoehorn him into a female role when he just worked better as a male. And also, I didn't want to have to try to figure out the anatomical issues of female minotaurs. That would have been utterly pointless. :smallwink:

Ultimately, when coming up with character concepts, I tend to go with what most feels right for the character. If a character tells me he's male, then who am I, his player, to argue? Ultimately, the character will turn out much better, and playing him will be much easier, if I cooperate.

So yeah, I've cross-gendered a few times, and for the most part have really enjoyed the characters that have resulted.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 11:06 AM
My opinion: your coming across as someone who is pretty homophobic and is upset by the very idea of someone playing a character with a gender other than their own actual gender; perhaps it's not the case... but based on other comments, I don't think I'm the only one who's getting that vibe from you.

Thank you for forming opinions on me without any more information then you have :smallwink: . I would be offended if it weren't human nature.

If you're curious, no, I'm not homophobic. My main concern with the whole issue, and the main reason why I don't like it, is that it's often done badly on purpose (so not someone trying to roleplay and failing, but someone purposefully choosing to transgender for the wrong reasons), which in turn may/will disturb other players, which I don't accept. The game is supposed to be fun for all involved, not just for the one who wants to transgender.

Lilivati
2007-04-10, 11:07 AM
I had a lot of DnD chars who were guys, and never thought anything of it, or encountered anyone who did. Then I started playing WoW, made a male druid, and everyone is creeped out by it. I still don't understand why. I thought the whole point of making a character was to pretend to be someone different? Well, alright, it has more subtleties than that (like the author approach), but the main point is that my characters are separate entities from myself, and have no need to have anything in common with me, including their sex.

Jayabalard
2007-04-10, 11:12 AM
But this is wholly setting stereotype dependant.And Your point is? The real world has stereotypes... so do historical and realistic game worlds.

Some of us play in those game worlds; it's one of the reasons I prefer GURPS worldbooks over anything that D&D has to offer because they have much more depth and present a more realistic and believable world.


Firstly, I'm an open minded person, and I don't cling to my opinions tightly. Whenever I can, I test my own opinions for their validity. In this case, I've never warmed up to the idea of playing another gender, and I have stated my reasons for that. However, since this thread was started and has been replied to by people whose work on this board and who's general intelligence I very much enjoy and respect, I see this as an oppertunity to review my own opinion and, if reason enough is found, to change it. That's why I'm actively persuing the possibility of good reasons to play other genders, and why I'm so critical of what is presented.

And about the vibe I'm getting: It's not a crack, and I don't think I presented it as one. It is an observation, and not a negative one. Just one that has roused my curiosity, considering that I've gotten that same vibe before on these boards.

Actually, come to think of it, I do not understand why that observation is being taken so offensively.Like I said, it's because you're coming off as someone who's upset by the very idea that someone is playing a different gender, and seem to think that people need some sort of reason. Why would anyone ever need a reason beyond "it fits the character better" to play a gender other than their own? What is there to justify? Why would anyone need to present an argument for it? Why should anyone try and convince you of anything?

Basically you're coming across as saying "ok, convince me that you're not just a creepy perv or someone who is confused about their own gender identity" which isn't terribly polite... which I think is why people are reacting to you the way that they are.


I've never said anyone was wrong.Perhaps you haven't but you are pretty clearly implying it. Things like "He might as well play a man."

Woot Spitum
2007-04-10, 11:16 AM
I refuse to play a character if I can't do their voice justice. I want my characters to sound realistic, not like someone trying (and failing) to sound like the opposite gender. If I want a challenge, I'll play a gnome.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 11:22 AM
I refuse to play a character if I can't do their voice justice. I want my characters to sound realistic, not like someone trying (and failing) to sound like the opposite gender. If I want a challenge, I'll play a gnome.
Now there's an interesting reason not to play a character, and I have to admit I like it. I don't quite know why, but it makes sense to me.

Cyborg: IMO, you really are coming off as hostile. Maybe you don't intend to write with that attitude, but thats the way its apparently being taken here.
Hmmm... let me see if I can point out why...
*looks for a bit*
...I'll get back to you in a second about that. I think I've kinda got an idea of why it seems that way, but I need to look more.

Roethke
2007-04-10, 11:33 AM
Gender choice in D&D 3.5 is akin to choosing character height or hair color-- it doesn't have much of an effect on the mechanics of the game, but may or may not have a large effect on the RP portion.

Sometimes I choose to play a particularly short human, and sometimes larger as fits the background of the character I'm playing. And sometimes height just really isn't all that important. Same deal with gender.

To say that the gaming table is probably not the appropriate for working out RL gender issues is something of a strawman-- I think folks will agree that ANY player hogging the spotlight for any reason is not a particularly good thing. (Of course it depends on the group).

Ibid for playing the opposite gender just to showcase RL stereotypes (though this is somewhat looser. Anyone I've seen play a kender is a walking stereotype). If it gets to the point where the stereotype is becoming the focus, or the bad RP is breaking the belief in the game, probably not a good thing.

So it comes down to just a subset of the "Don't be a jackass player" rule, that applies for every character creation choice.

---
EDIT: Cyborg & hostility-
I think folks are overreacting a little. Cyborg's just putting his (her?) views out there. To engage in wanton speculation, I could see how a couple of experiences playing with someone who did a particularly bad job at RPing the opposite gender could cause one to be leery of the practice.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 11:38 AM
And Your point is? The real world has stereotypes... so do historical and realistic game worlds.

I mentioned that because playing other genders also happens a lot in world where there are no gender stereotypes.


Perhaps you haven't but you are pretty clearly implying it. Things like "He might as well play a man."

Well, let me say that I do not mean to imply that. With "he might as well play a man", I mean that there's no obvious difference in the character if you don't know what gender that character is.




Cyborg: IMO, you really are coming off as hostile. Maybe you don't intend to write with that attitude, but thats the way its apparently being taken here.
Hmmm... let me see if I can point out why...
*looks for a bit*
...I'll get back to you in a second about that. I think I've kinda got an idea of why it seems that way, but I need to look more.

Maybe i'm too blunt with my questions and observations. Where I live, we tend to be quite direct. I've heard from foreigners (americans actually) that we are quite tactless compared to them.

Still tho, I'm finding it hard to see where I went wrong exactly.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 11:40 AM
Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?

I like portraying strong, self-sufficient women, women I would find attractive not for their physical beauty but for their force of personality. I also like playing marginalized characters, and nine times out of ten, the world I game in is patriarchal. What better way to show that than to be someone who is marginalized by something as fundamental as gender?

Further, whenever I play a man, I find myself slipping into stereotypes because I don't worry as much about my character. I know how to play a man, right? So why worry about it? But when I play a woman, I have to think about what I do because I don't play a woman in day-to-day life. So I end up being a better roleplayer because I have to consciously think about my decisions and actions.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 11:42 AM
Disclaimer: I by no means am saying that the below is what you intended to convey, only that someone may have conciously or subconciously may have taken it this way.

I think I understand now. The problem is that waaaay too many of your posts can be taken as accusations.

Lets go through them one by one, shall we?


I don't like it for two reasons:

1) Most do Not do it well.

2) I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to the question: Why?
I'll grant you your point. I've already said that I've seen a number of people who can't RP the opposite gender.
However, the way you phrase, especially online, will greatly influence people. You start off with an accusation. You say "people don't do it well", with an emphasis on the negative. Considering a large number of us believe we do play the opposite gender correctly, this might be taken as an accusation against us, if only slightly. Its quite possible someone will take the idea that you mean:
"You guys don't do it well. Despite what you think."
Then you go on to say "I've never gotten a good answer as to why" which, combined with the previous statement, will make you think:
"You don't do it well, and you're morons for trying it anyways."

Not a good first impression, even if it is incorrect, right?

Next:

...no, I don't see it. I can't think of a single concept that can't be played by both genders as long as the right attitude for the character is selected. Unless for some reason the character's physical... qualities have to be involved (twitch).

Again, this post comes off as an accusation, subtly suggesting that we are incorrect for holding our viewpoint. "I don't see it. I can't think of a single concept..." which suggests that our thoughts are just wrong. "You're not right, I am."
Then you say "...a single concept that can't be played by both genders as long as the right attitude for the character is selected"
Whoa. Really accusative sounding.
"You don't have the right attitude for your character. Its your fault."


PS: Maybe it's just me, but reading this thread, I'm getting a light vibe that many people here don't encounter strong women much. Might that be the reason certain concepts require certain genders in your minds here?
Okay. So we already "know" that we can't play the opposite gender, and that we're stupid to try, and so now this post suggests that we have a bad view of women in real life.
"Maybe you're all biased bigots?"
Quite a bad impression.


Also, you keep saying you have "an open mind" about this, but when they try and convince them, you "attack" them with your "accusations" and then end with calling them weak arguments.

And then, to top it off, all your recent posts start denying that what you are doing is offensive. While this may help us to understand that what you were saying wasn't intended to be offensive, its basically just insulting our abilities to comprehend you again.



Does this help you understand why we may be getting offended?

Disclaimer Again: I by no means am saying that the above is what you intended to convey, only that someone may have conciously or subconciously may have taken it this way.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 11:43 AM
Further, whenever I play a man, I find myself slipping into stereotypes because I don't worry as much about my character. I know how to play a man, right? So why worry about it? But when I play a woman, I have to think about what I do because I don't play a woman in day-to-day life. So I end up being a better roleplayer because I have to consciously think about my decisions and actions.

That's very interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I find myself slipping into stereotypes or slipping back into my own personality from time to time when I roleplay. I think I might have to try this too.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 11:45 AM
Further, whenever I play a man, I find myself slipping into stereotypes because I don't worry as much about my character. I know how to play a man, right? So why worry about it? But when I play a woman, I have to think about what I do because I don't play a woman in day-to-day life. So I end up being a better roleplayer because I have to consciously think about my decisions and actions.
... it makes so much more sense now.

Jayabalard
2007-04-10, 11:47 AM
I mentioned that because playing other genders also happens a lot in world where there are no gender stereotypes.And? Some people like to play games with a greater sense of social realism than those bland worlds, so even if they are playing in a game world that doesn't supply that sort of detail, those players often will add them to their characters in order to get the feel of a real society.


Maybe i'm too blunt with my questions and observations. Where I live, we tend to be quite direct. I've heard from foreigners (americans actually) that we are quite tactless compared to them.

Still tho, I'm finding it hard to see where I went wrong exactly.Like I said above, it's because you're taking the stance of "ok, convince me that you're not just a creepy perv or someone who is confused about their own gender identity". It's not a lack of tact... it's your overall attitude that there is anything at all that need to be justified.

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 11:48 AM
@Vael

I think I understand more now. Thanks for taking the time for it.

I want everybody to know that I tend to be very literal in what I say. So when I say something like "I can't think of a single reason", I do literally mean that I can't think of a single reason.

Darkxarth
2007-04-10, 11:49 AM
I played Mialee from the D&D Basic Game (starter set thingy) but I played her as a arcanier-than-thou sort of snob that wasn't really gender-specific. The character could've just as well been Mike the Elf, and the personality wouldn't have changed.

It was my first game, cut me some slack...

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 11:50 AM
Pssst. It's "Vael". He can be touchy about that.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 11:51 AM
@Veal

I think I understand more now. Thanks for taking the time for it.

I want everybody to know that I tend to be very literal in what I say. So when I say something like "I can't think of a single reason", I do literally mean that I can't think of a single reason.
No problem. I've been looking for a way I can be helpful. I tend to kind of just say "blah" on the boards and then move off somewhere else, so when I saw a chance to help I jumped at it.

Edit: And yes. Call me Veal and I'll make YOU into veal. :smallwink:

Cyborg Pirate
2007-04-10, 11:54 AM
Pssst. It's "Vael". He can be touchy about that.



Edit: And yes. Call me Veal and I'll make YOU into veal. :smallwink:

>_< Damn! I even double checked and still got it wrong.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-10, 11:55 AM
Out of curiosity: What is it that you want to portray that requires your character to be female?

Either: traditionally feminine characteristics, without it being a big thing.

Or: traditionally masculine characteristics, with it being a big thing.

And again, it does depend very much on setting. In a traditional, gender-blind, D&D game, neither of these are particularly important. In a setting in which (as I described in an earlier post) half the armed forces are female, a female warrior is nothing remarkable.

On the other hand in a setting in which gender roles actually do matter (like, say, the real world) your character's gender plays an important role. These aren't "stereotypes" these are facts of the setting. It's massively dismissive of the very real differences between the lives of men and women all over the world and throughout history to assume that those things aren't worth exploring.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 11:57 AM
>_< Damn! I even double checked and still got it wrong.
Hehehe. Its okay, it happens alot.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 11:58 AM
That's very interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I find myself slipping into stereotypes or slipping back into my own personality from time to time when I roleplay. I think I might have to try this too.


... it makes so much more sense now.

I wouldn't say it if I didn't find it true.

Indon
2007-04-10, 12:00 PM
Gender choice in D&D 3.5 is akin to choosing character height or hair color-- it doesn't have much of an effect on the mechanics of the game, but may or may not have a large effect on the RP portion.

Sometimes I choose to play a particularly short human, and sometimes larger as fits the background of the character I'm playing. And sometimes height just really isn't all that important. Same deal with gender.

To say that the gaming table is probably not the appropriate for working out RL gender issues is something of a strawman-- I think folks will agree that ANY player hogging the spotlight for any reason is not a particularly good thing. (Of course it depends on the group).

Ibid for playing the opposite gender just to showcase RL stereotypes (though this is somewhat looser. Anyone I've seen play a kender is a walking stereotype). If it gets to the point where the stereotype is becoming the focus, or the bad RP is breaking the belief in the game, probably not a good thing.

So it comes down to just a subset of the "Don't be a jackass player" rule, that applies for every character creation choice.


This accurately conveys my opinion of the issue.

Or in short, No, I do not generally play female characters. I've played characters who are female, however.

Edit: Also, not voting because "Meh" is not a poll option.

AmberVael
2007-04-10, 12:00 PM
I wouldn't say it if I didn't find it true.
Glad someone could explain it to my satisfaction. :smallsmile:

KIDS
2007-04-10, 12:02 PM
I'm male, and maybe a third of my characters are females. I don't see anything wrong with it (I'm not an elf or a sorcerer in real life either, just like I'm not a female!). Do note that if someone came and told me "no, a female wouldn't do that" I'd really slap him. How does he/she know that? Is he/she a god of his or her gender? Stay away from me!

The gender differences are already insignificant enough, so why bother with sexism on top of it?
And to answer the eternal "why"... it feels more fitting, more fun or just isn't important. That's why.

CabbageTheif
2007-04-10, 12:07 PM
i have never played an opposite gender, but i would be willing to try. unless you count online, in which case there is my Ireth/S'vreeem characters, the former being male and the latter, female.

meh. as far as i care, it doesnt matter. role playing is supposed to be to let you express a fantasy of some sort in a safe, healthy environment. if your party is uncomfortable with the way you do it, they may not be the party for you.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-10, 12:28 PM
"Sex is for real life, killing is for RPGs. You get in all kinds of trouble once you start mixing them up."

Mixing what? Sex and killing? That is kind of bad...

I long ago realised that anybody I RP will end up being an abusive jerk so it doesn't matter if I put an F or an M in that box.

The advantage of playing a female character is that it can help you to try harder to be less like yourself. It isn't neccesary though. Men also sometimes find it easier to make up female characters then male ones. Especially males who don't know what kind of man they'd like to be but know what kind of girl they'd like to know.

Society rarely portrays men as something you'd want to be. It's very hard to find a decent male rolemodel.

Lemur
2007-04-10, 12:30 PM
I've never actually done it before, but I don't see anything odd about it. I'd like to try it one of these days. Of course, I'm not certain that they'd ultimately be any different from my normal characters, they'd just be in a female body. That said, I tend to avoid romantic type situations, regardless of gender, and my characters are often fairly gender neutral anyway.

This thread reminded me of something a friend of mine wanted to do: play a (male) character who goes in drag everywhere. Get lots of ranks in disguise, and just make everyone think you're a girl. I think that may have to go on the "quirky character I have to play some time" list.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 12:37 PM
Society rarely portrays men as something you'd want to be. It's very hard to find a decent male rolemodel.

Sad but true.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 12:38 PM
Do note that if someone came and told me "no, a female wouldn't do that" I'd really slap him. How does he/she know that? Is he/she a god of his or her gender? Stay away from me!Yeah, although I haven't run a cross-gender character myself, I know this one pretty well. Way back in high school a lot of my female friends would get on this horse about...well, pretty much any entertainment scripted by a male. "He just doesn't understand women, a woman would never do X." We're talking about anything from Star Wars to Shakespeare, here. I mean, HELLO, there's millions and billions of people out there. You mean to say NO woman would ever mistakenly kiss her own brother? Or, you know, dressed as a man and been mistaken for her own brother. Same thing.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 12:39 PM
Yeah, although I haven't run a cross-gender character myself, I know this one pretty well. Way back in high school a lot of my female friends would get on this horse about...well, pretty much any entertainment scripted by a male. "He just doesn't understand women, a woman would never do X." We're talking about anything from Star Wars to Shakespeare, here. I mean, HELLO, there's millions and billions of people out there. You mean to say NO woman would ever mistakenly kiss her own brother? Or, you know, dressed as a man and been mistaken for her own brother. Same thing.

It's discomforting to note how often that's a plot device.

The Great Skenardo
2007-04-10, 01:00 PM
Moreso than playing the opposite gender, I find playing races other than human to be very difficult. Elves, to pick an example, are beings that are practically immortal and have experience far beyond that of Joe McHuman in the same sense that you and I have more experience than, say, a rabbit (in terms of life span). Wrap that up in a culture that emphasizes art and beauty and in some fashion a completely alien mindset, and it becomes difficult to play an elf with any kind of appropriate social context without slipping into Default Legolas mode. I've read most of races of the wild, but it still presents a serious barrier for me to act as an elf with a hundred years behind her would, given her culture and upbringing.

At least with playing the opposite sex, I have some frame of reference.

Reinboom
2007-04-10, 01:03 PM
I've thus far only really played with people who 'break down' somehow, when a homosexual relationship comes up in RP, usually by accident somehow, when someone cross genders characters from themselves. More so when the group is dominantly male and the characters in questions are female.
I would like to know why many people have an issue with this.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-04-10, 01:13 PM
One of my favorite directors of all time, Satoshi Kon (Perfect Blue, Paranoia Agent, Millenium Actress) was once asked why most of his protagonists are female: He responded that he had an easier time writing for them, because he tended to only see the faults in men.

I usually play male characters, but sometimes I have a concept and I really see it being played out better by a woman

I think it's hard for some people because they feel like they need to really immerse themselves in their character (method acting); personally I tend to think of my RPing as writing, I'm writing the dialogue in Real-Time, so I can be more detached from "being" the character.

In terms of people saying what "Real women" would do; it's partly irrelevant.
RPing isn't about creating people, it's about creating characters. Some characters exist to defy gender stereotypes and show the reality of the female mindset, some exist, like the female crossdressers in Shakespeare, to elicit confusion and play with roles of femininity and masculinity.

Characters are not people, they don't have complete psychologies and identities, only those pieces of them that are assigned by their writers, and what is meant by the authors for those identities to represent.

Fhaolan
2007-04-10, 01:27 PM
Characters are not people, they don't have complete psychologies and identities, only those pieces of them that are assigned by their writers, and what is meant by the authors for those identities to represent.

Well done. I agree with this one 100%.

There's another point that needs to be made, and it's one that is *very* difficult to get across even to the people in the stage-combat acting troupe I belong to:

You are not your character. Your character is not you. If things happen to the character, they are not happening to you. It is not personal, it is not an attack on your core being. It is simply what is happening to the character as part of the game/play/whatever. If a male character is transformed into a female character via a magic item that switches the character's gender, it is not an attack on the player's gender identity.

[As a side-note, this actually gets *more* difficult with actors doing a play. "My character wouldn't do that!"... In that situation, it's not 'your character'. If the character belongs to anyone, it's the writer and the director, not you. Divorce your ego from the job.]

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 01:30 PM
I've thus far only really played with people who 'break down' somehow, when a homosexual relationship comes up in RP, usually by accident somehow, when someone cross genders characters from themselves. More so when the group is dominantly male and the characters in questions are female.
I would like to know why many people have an issue with this.

Well, many heterosexual young men - particularly when in High School, when they aren't as confident in their sexuality - are afraid do anything that might be even remotely construed as homosexual, and RPing a love scene (even a hetero love scene) between characters both controlled by males crosses that line.

Maxymiuk
2007-04-10, 01:39 PM
Jumping in a bit late here, I see, but hey...

I'd try it online. I even have an idea or two knocking around my head. In ordinary tabletop I wouldn't though. I wouldn't be able to pull it off convincingly enough to be happy with it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 01:41 PM
[As a side-note, this actually gets *more* difficult with actors doing a play. "My character wouldn't do that!"... In that situation, it's not 'your character'. If the character belongs to anyone, it's the writer and the director, not you. Divorce your ego from the job.]Indeed. If the script calls for you to do something incompatible with your mental model of the character...you need to revise your mental model.

For D&D, though, it IS your character, so the rule needs to be flipped: If someone else (the DM, another player, etc) tries to tell you "your character wouldn't do that!" there is a problem.

Furthermore (and I still have trouble with this myself) it is not your job in D&D to simulate a fully-developed real person "accurately." This is what ArmorArmadillo was talking about above, but I'll take it a little further. While it is your role as a player to decide what Archeus the Mage would do in the current situation, it's not a test. You're not going to "get it wrong" and thereby fail at D&D. It's your character.

Besides, real people are complicated. Very complicated. It's sometimes possible to guess what a stranger is going to do, but you will very often be surprised. Guessing some else's motivations is even shakier. My point is, what you're doing in an RP situation is revealing the character, not simulating the character. Did Muro the Angry Monk just run from ghasts? The proper reaction to that is "Hmm, that reveals a side of him we didn't know before," NOT "That was wrong! Muro wouldn't do that!"

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 01:48 PM
Indeed. If the script calls for you to do something incompatible with your mental model of the character...you need to revise your mental model.

This is why I compare RPG gaming to improv instead of acting.

...man, I'd love to game with Ryan Stiles or Eddie Izzard. I bet they'd be awesome.

Roethke
2007-04-10, 01:49 PM
Indeed. If the script calls for you to do something incompatible with your mental model of the character...you need to revise your mental model.

For D&D, though, it IS your character, so the rule needs to be flipped: If someone else (the DM, another player, etc) tries to tell you "your character wouldn't do that!" there is a problem.

Furthermore (and I still have trouble with this myself) it is not your job in D&D to simulate a fully-developed real person "accurately." This is what ArmorArmadillo was talking about above, but I'll take it a little further. While it is your role as a player to decide what Archeus the Mage would do in the current situation, it's not a test. You're not going to "get it wrong" and thereby fail at D&D. It's your character.

Besides, real people are complicated. Very complicated. It's sometimes possible to guess what a stranger is going to do, but you will very often be surprised. Guessing some else's motivations is even shakier. My point is, what you're doing in an RP situation is revealing the character, not simulating the character. Did Muro the Angry Monk just run from ghasts? The proper reaction to that is "Hmm, that reveals a side of him we didn't know before," NOT "That was wrong! Muro wouldn't do that!"

I think we're veering a bit OT here, but most of the time when I've encountered the "Your PC wouldn't do that!" (either on the giving ro receiving end) it's not so much a criticism of the player's literary/acting ability as it is a reminder not to let mechanics be the sole dictator of actions.

For your 'Muro the Angry Monk' example, if running away happened to be the best tactical move, but prior to this Muro had been played as a beserker type, it does seem like convenient timing for Muro to suddenly develop depth and introspection.

That being said the DM, should rarely, if ever, just declare by fiat that a PC can't take an action solely on RP grounds. In my experience, a friendly "Are you sure Muro would do that?" is enough for the player reflect and decide.

Krellen
2007-04-10, 01:53 PM
My last tabletop character was female. She was female because the concept - a gypsy dancer (and nature-witch, since she was a druid) - only really worked as a female. The two women at our table both played male characters.

Aquillion
2007-04-10, 01:59 PM
I would play female characters I just prefer not to be a PC. That and a lot of men in computer games look stupid so I end up playing a female character (ie KOTOR has only 1 decent male head and I don't want my Str 8 NWN wizard to be built like that).Computer games are a bit different. As Sharkey put it in one of his comics, about third-person shooters: It's a third-person shooter, so either way you're going to be staring at someone's ass 95% of the time. It isn't exactly surprising that so many guys prefer female characters when you look at it like that.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 02:04 PM
Computer games are a bit different. As Sharkey put it in one of his comics, about third-person shooters: It's a third-person shooter, so either way you're going to be staring at someone's ass 95% of the time. It isn't exactly surprising that so many guys prefer female characters when you look at it like that.

Exactly. Why do you think Lara Croft is so popular?

Jannex
2007-04-10, 02:05 PM
I think it's hard for some people because they feel like they need to really immerse themselves in their character (method acting); personally I tend to think of my RPing as writing, I'm writing the dialogue in Real-Time, so I can be more detached from "being" the character.

Interestingly enough, I'm very much a method actor, and yet have no problem playing male characters. I suppose I feel that as long as there's some element of my personality in the character, I don't need to be the same gender as the character in order to immerse myself in his/her mindset.

Daneel the Sane
2007-04-10, 02:06 PM
Well... I HAVE to play characters of the opposite gender... I am the DM.
However, as rarely as I play, I have played characters of the opposite gender. Mostly because the theme of the character would be more easily played as female. For instance, a Malkavian who is deluded into believing that everyone she meets is her child, or something else along those lines. I am an actor in RL, so I see it as a challenge.
The trick is, of course, not to act "like a woman", but to act like THIS woman. Just like playing a male character is not to act like a stereotype of a man, but to play THIS man. The example given on "Goblins" of a female played by an immature horny teenager ("Want to see my boobies?") is an obvious example of someone who probably should not be playing a female, and is destined to be creepy.
Once, whilst DMing, a male player playing a male character decided to get romantically involved with a female NPC. That was a bit challenging, because like most men, sometimes a woman's motivations in a relationship mystify me. However, thanks to remembering that I was RPing who THIS woman is, I managed to muddle through, and they actually became quite a pair.
Then a female character played by a female player decided to snare a male NPC. That was a lot of fun, since the fellow she was interested in was a chaotic neutral elven thief who was a spy for the elven royal family. She wooed him by out-spying and out-stealing him. :)
I guess the basic point is to remember that you are not playing a man, or a woman, but rather a PERSON who is a man or a woman.

Reinboom
2007-04-10, 02:14 PM
Well, many heterosexual young men - particularly when in High School, when they aren't as confident in their sexuality - are afraid do anything that might be even remotely construed as homosexual, and RPing a love scene (even a hetero love scene) between characters both controlled by males crosses that line.

Ah, but the issue is that we are all college students and even when it's two females or a male and female RPing it, even if it's only suggestive, they still suddenly freak out. Actually, the group has a much easier time dealing with homosexual relationships between male characters more so. So I don't think it's what you said.

Holocron Coder
2007-04-10, 02:24 PM
Dang, I had it in my mind the whole time and it gets posted in the last couple posts before I get to the last page :). I am, of course, speaking of the console/pc game "staring at their backside all the time" bit.

As another point, though, I decided to come up with a character role that would be BEST fit by a female, since there is no absolute-has-to-be, short of a character in a religion/society/social group of males/females.

Concept: A Twi'lek Jedi's background, timeline setting in the future after NJO. Now, given that the character is born on the homeworld, there are really only two ways to get off the planet: become a smuggler or be a slave ("only two" representing about 99% of the possibilities, with the last 1% being just off the wall). Since the character isn't a smuggler, but a Jedi, that leaves the slave route. In Twi'lek society, the male gender takes on the main role, with the woman often being very little more than property. Thus, a male is extremely unlikely to become a slave. Thus, the end result is a Twi'lek Female Jedi.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-10, 02:25 PM
Computer games are a bit different. As Sharkey put it in one of his comics, about third-person shooters: It's a third-person shooter, so either way you're going to be staring at someone's ass 95% of the time. It isn't exactly surprising that so many guys prefer female characters when you look at it like that.

While that is a very valid point that does contribute to my choice it wasn't what I was trying to emphasise. Male character models in games tend to be rediculously muscular while female character models tend not to have any "unsightly evidence that they work out". Therefore if I want a character who isn't muscular I usually have to pick a female character model. Non-elven characters tend to be very muscular despite the fact that many characters will have strength as a dump stat.

Also a lot of women like Tomb Raider games.

The "insecure about sexuality" thing is a stereotype that I have never seen in real life. Apart from the use of 'gay' as a random cussword with no real context (not that this is a good thing). I think many people would find it hard to roleplay romance at all and some would feel more comfortable doing it if there wasn't anyone of the opposite gender around..


Concept: A Twi'lek Jedi's background, timeline setting in the future after NJO. Now, given that the character is born on the homeworld, there are really only two ways to get off the planet: become a smuggler or be a slave ("only two" representing about 99% of the possibilities, with the last 1% being just off the wall). Since the character isn't a smuggler, but a Jedi, that leaves the slave route. In Twi'lek society, the male gender takes on the main role, with the woman often being very little more than property. Thus, a male is extremely unlikely to become a slave. Thus, the end result is a Twi'lek Female Jedi.

Oh no, that dreaded stereotype.

Marvel Writer: "Our female characters have no Depth"

Marvel Editor: "I know, we make them all former slaves"

I think it would be a very brave thing to make a male character who's been a slave. I'd almost want to question why you felt the need to create an ex-slave character in the first place but I recognise that I'm best off not knowing. The idea that a man would never end up as a slave is wrong (men are preferred as slaves because they're believed to be better at hard labour) and based of a stereotype from real world earth that can easily be ignored in a fantasy game. Of course you're playing a Twi'lek, the race apparently invented to be an alien while conforming to human ideals of sexual attractiveness as much as possible.

Twi'lek are a common race in the Star Wars universe so I'm sure there are quite a few Twi'lek jedi, many of them female. They can't all be slaves.

Fhaolan
2007-04-10, 02:26 PM
Indeed. If the script calls for you to do something incompatible with your mental model of the character...you need to revise your mental model.

For D&D, though, it IS your character, so the rule needs to be flipped: If someone else (the DM, another player, etc) tries to tell you "your character wouldn't do that!" there is a problem.

True. My point was more... Hmmm... Let me try a series of examples: You're playing a character in an RPG. The character is cowardly. This doesn't mean that *you* are cowardly. You are not your character, your character is not you.

If you're playing a Wizard, this does not mean you believe you can really cast spells. You are not your character, your character is not you.

If a male player is playing a female character, this does not mean the player desires to be a woman. To turn this around, just because a player is running a hetrosexual character, it doesn't somehow prevent the player from being gay.

You are not your character, your character is not you.

You can play 'yourself' in a game, but it's still not you. It's still a character. If you attach enough of your self-worth into this character it's incredibly unhealthy, but it's still not you. The *second* you are no longer playing make-believe, you need to back off and go seek professional help.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 02:27 PM
While that is a very valid point that does contribute to my choice it wasn't what I was trying to emphasise. Male character models in games tend to be rediculously muscular while female character models tend not to have any "unsightly evidence that they work out". Therefore if I want a character who isn't muscular I usually have to pick a female character model. Non-elven characters tend to be very muscular despite the fact that many characters will have strength as a dump stat.Good lord, yes. Witness the ubiquitous WoW - the wizards look like freaking weightlifters! Well, the human ones anyway.

edit:
True. My point was more... Hmmm... Let me try a series of examples: You're playing a character in an RPG. The character is cowardly. This doesn't mean that *you* are cowardly. You are not your character, your character is not you.

If you're playing a Wizard, this does not mean you believe you can really cast spells. You are not your character, your character is not you.

If a male player is playing a female character, this does not mean the player desires to be a woman. To turn this around, just because a player is running a hetrosexual character, it doesn't somehow prevent the player from being gay.

You are not your character, your character is not you.

You can play 'yourself' in a game, but it's still not you. It's still a character. If you attach enough of your self-worth into this character it's incredibly unhealthy, but it's still not you. The *second* you are no longer playing make-believe, you need to back off and go seek professional help.Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I just kind of went off in a different direction with that :smallbiggrin:

Jayabalard
2007-04-10, 02:31 PM
The "insecure about sexuality" thing is a stereotype that I have never seen in real life. Apart from the use of 'gay' as a random cussword with no real context (not that this is a good thing). I think many people would find it hard to roleplay romance at all and some would feel more comfortable doing it if there wasn't anyone of the opposite gender around..Really? I've seen it quite a bit, but then again, I've got a good friend who is incredibly comfortable with his sexuality and occasionally goes off the deep end while messing with others who aren't.

Holocron Coder
2007-04-10, 02:33 PM
Good lord, yes. Witness the ubiquitous WoW - the wizards look like freaking weightlifters! Well, the human ones anyway.

Which is exactly why I have a night elf priest. At least he LOOKS properly muscle-less.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-10, 02:36 PM
Which is exactly why I have a night elf priest. At least he LOOKS properly muscle-less.

Except that the male Night Elves in the stratergy game are all incredibly muscular. Then again, they're probably a limited picture of male night elves.


Really? I've seen it quite a bit, but then again, I've got a good friend who is incredibly comfortable with his sexuality and occasionally goes off the deep end while messing with others who aren't.

I won't claim to be an expert on social interraction.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-04-10, 02:49 PM
Ah, but the issue is that we are all college students and even when it's two females or a male and female RPing it, even if it's only suggestive, they still suddenly freak out. Actually, the group has a much easier time dealing with homosexual relationships between male characters more so. So I don't think it's what you said.

Oh, well in that case I don't know.

Nahal
2007-04-10, 04:03 PM
This is certainly a fascinating discussion (especially after a couple fem theory courses), and though I've played a grand total of 3 characters (one in each campaign, since the GM wasn't big on character death. killing the PLOT however, proved far too easy) I've actually wondered about this since I've played with guys who cross genders.

In my case I don't have any objection to it, I just haven't run across a character concept that both jumped out at me and required it to be female. For simplicity's sake then I just play males since it makes my job as a PC easier (and because I wind up devoting more of my brainpower to problem-solving and plot analysis than RPing anyway. My GM's campaigns are very cerebral).

As for roleplaying tabletop romance, meh. It's nothing two well-adjusted adults shouldn't be able to handle. I've sat through enough joke flirtation from french canadian friends that I really think I'd mostly just find it funny in a game.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 04:06 PM
Oh, another valid reason to play a specific gender would be to qualify for specific feats and PrCs (such as Sherem-Lar/Sherezem-Lar Sorcery, the Eunuch Mage, etc.). They do exist, though they are rare.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-10, 04:41 PM
Then there's always the Dromite route. Filling in a Dromite physical description is a never-ending series of comedy. Eyes: compound, Hair: not a one, Skin: exoskeleton, actually, Gender: no.

More to the point, how would playing a genderless character affect your playing style? It might be a good way to see what sort of behaviour your characters trend towards by default.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 04:54 PM
I play dromites whenever possible, actually, since I lovez the little ant peoples. I play them as rather androgynous, but they also have the added difficulty of not thinking in the same thought patterns that individualist creatures do; dromites, being social (and nearly hive) creatures, have different concepts of good, bad, order, chaos, etc. than most other creatures do.

Aramil Liadon
2007-04-10, 10:28 PM
I am doing so ATM, but I just can't really get into the right mindset. I can imagine what it would be like to be a dwarf because those are largely stereotyped, no-one is going to say "You're playing that dwarf wrong. A real dwarf would..." because there are no real dwarves. Are females real? I hope so. I really don't have much experience with the fairer sex, and don't want to screw up. Also, females don't get those nice typed up "Dwarves like to be underground, and have an affinity for metalworking" kind of notes. Things that could end up in a lawsuit, but make my RPing much easier.

Woot Spitum
2007-04-10, 10:42 PM
That's what I love about fantasy races. Don't like the default dwarven look and accent? Make him talk like Edward G. Robinson. While I suppose you could do the same thing with a female character, a woman that sounds like Edward G. Robinson is beyond weird.

The Demented One
2007-04-10, 11:03 PM
I was a bit disappointed when I found out this wasn't literal...I had hoped to see pics of are beloved Tribble gaming in a dress. Now I can only imagine how amazing they would be...

Phoenix Talion
2007-04-10, 11:10 PM
I usually play girls, but I have two guys at the moment. Just... because that's what they are. I create a character, and they're a certain way. I don't really have a reason, male characters happen and female characters happen. Same when I write. I don't really conciously decide things about the characters, they decide things for themselves. Who am I to argue.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-10, 11:35 PM
I was a bit disappointed when I found out this wasn't literal...I had hoped to see pics of are beloved Tribble gaming in a dress. Now I can only imagine how amazing they would be...

Yeah, that'd be terror on a whole new level.

Starsinger
2007-04-11, 12:06 AM
I play females because it's easier for me and the people I game with. For some reason, they can deal better with me playing a female than me playing a homosexual male, so the vast majority of my characters are female. And I've been told that I do it extremely well.

Ashdate
2007-04-11, 12:14 AM
I've played a female druid before, but that's pretty much it. The only reason I did was because I had been playing a lot of Final Fantasy Tactics and liked how the female Geomancer's coat looked.

I don't have a problem with dudes playing females, but I've got a dude friend who ONLY plays females, and frankly it kind of creeps me out. D&D, Shadowrun, World of Warcraft... all female characters...

- Eddie

Scorpina
2007-04-11, 12:24 AM
I mostly play females. I have nothing against playing male characters, except that I'm not (as anyone who posted in the same threads as me during GB week will testify) very good at it and I tend to lapse into stereotypical 'male' behaviour (almost all of my male PCs spend their gold on ale and wenches...). I've noticed the same thing happen with guys playing female characters (well not ale and wenches, but being stereotypically feminine).

Of course, some characters do only work with one gender (my opinion), especially in fantasy/historical settings. I mean, the Drow (the real ones, in Faerun...) have a very matriarchal society, so a male and female character from that background are not interchangable. The same applies to several other societies in several other settings - yes, such differences and gender roles aren't necessarily always true, but they're social constructs, and as such have their place in a pre-existing fantasy world with pre-existing social structures.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-11, 12:32 AM
...I tend to lapse into stereotypical 'male' behaviour (almost all of my male PCs spend their gold on ale and wenches...).

That's not stereotypical. That's reality. You talked to nine out of ten guys in a college recently? The majority have nothing better to talk about getting hammered and laid.

TheOOB
2007-04-11, 12:32 AM
As a male, I usually end up playing male characters, primarly because I have more experiance being that gender and thus I am much better able to role play a male. I have no problum playing a female character, I have done so before once or twice, but my lack of personal experiance in that area makes me fairly weak in that aspect of role play.

Generally I don't mind if other people "play in drag", so long as they do it seriously, I've seen a few of the uber slutty lesbian female characters played by males in my time and I find them quite offensive, and I'm not even female.

Scorpina
2007-04-11, 12:35 AM
That's not stereotypical. That's reality. You talked to nine out of ten guys in a college recently? The majority have nothing better to talk about getting hammered and laid.

Yeah, fair enough for a college student (drunken bastards that we are), but an elven wizard or a dwarf cleric? Not so much.

Dhavaer
2007-04-11, 12:43 AM
I've said it before, but I'll never get tired of saying it. I only play females. Why? Who knows. Probably because I'm practically swimming in oestrogen, what with having two female humans and one female cat but no other males in the house.

Pauwel
2007-04-11, 12:44 AM
I would play in drag were it not for my bass-baritone voice that would probably sound rather weird with a female character. I've never tried, though, so I have no idea of how good/bad I am at it.
I could play a transvestite, and have considered doing it several times.

Starsinger
2007-04-11, 12:44 AM
I'm not sure about wenches, since female dwarves are an urban legend, but it's totally stereotypical for a dwarf to spend all his money on ale... in fact, as far as stereotypes go, it's frowned upon for a dwarf not to spend all his money on ale.

Dhavaer
2007-04-11, 12:46 AM
I'm not sure about wenches, since female dwarves are an urban legend, but it's totally stereotypical for a dwarf to spend all his money on ale... in fact, as far as stereotypes go, it's frowned upon for a dwarf not to spend all his money on ale.

If Rei Jin were here, this would be a good time for him to start talking about Drinky, the sentient, indestructable, everfull barrel of ale.

belboz
2007-04-11, 12:56 AM
Been a while since we've had this discussion. It's nice that it's a lot more...equanimous this time around.

For some reason, I've never had a particular desire to play a female character. It's certainly not that the idea bothers me; I'll happily play female characters in, say, CRPGs where I don't have a choice, and I played one the one time I played in a tournament (and a *very* long time ago that was) with no trouble. It's just that PCs that occur to me when I'm a player have always happened to be male.

But that's just me--I might also note that I basically never play non-human characters, either, and it's not because I think there's anything wrong with doing so. There certainly are legitimate reasons--or, rather, there's just one legitimate reason, but it's perfectly adequate--for playing a character of the opposite gender from your own, and it's the one VT mentioned at the very beginning of the thread: You have an idea for a fun character to play, and that idea happens to be of the opposite gender. As he said, it's just the same impulse that drives writers to create characters of the opposite gender (usually): Characters often spring into your mind, if not fully-formed, than at least well-formed, and gender may just be a part of this.

I have known of cases (second-hand, but thankfully never first-hand) when a player had problematic reasons for playing a character of the opposite gender: They wanted to act out their idealized sexual fantasy (such players, of course, are either hetero- or bisexual; I imagine the problem could occasionally come up with non-heterosexual players without the gender switch). This is fine if you have the sort of gaming group that appreciates it, but most--including any that involve me--do not. Frankly, I don't think this is an issue that comes up frequently with players who are otherwise mature. And it's definitely not fair to tar all players who have characters of the opposite gender with this brush.

Dervag
2007-04-11, 02:36 AM
I'm not sure about wenches, since female dwarves are an urban legend,Or you can go the Pratchett route and say that roughly half of all dwarves are female, but their culture expects them to act more or less the same as males in all regards.

Pratchett books which make extensive mention of dwarves frequently footnote that dwarven courtship consists mainly of an extended, very careful and diplomatic, process of finding out whether the other dwarf is male or female.

Wehrkind
2007-04-11, 02:51 AM
I know this sort of got answered earlier, but I wanted to chime in. Probably will get pilloried, but as a disclaimer, I don't mean that this applies to everyone, though in a broad sense it does. Broader than the examples given here though.

I think part of the reason some concepts fit one gender better than the other is that even though D&D is officially gender neutral, it is so in the same way the US is officially gender neutral. That is to say, yes, women can be boxers, but it is uncommon enough that they want to be that a female prize fighter is recognized as unusual. Similarly, I thin most players, if confronted with a town say where all the guards were described as female, would instantly think "must be amazons" not "nothing out of the ordinary here". Not that it is bad or good, just that it is. So while a woman could be a bruiser who can bench press a portcullis, and a man could be a stay at home dad, waiting for his heroic wife to bring home the gold, to our minds this would be out of the ordinary, thus interesting (and possibly good or bad, depending.)

So as to why people think one gender fits a concept better or worse, it is just how they see the world, and likely how they see their game world.

It would be funny to play Julia Caesaria. Presumably she would have a little bit of a mustache. :-P

bladesmith
2007-04-11, 02:58 AM
For me, I play females fairly often online. Over a tabletop, a couple times with only one long-term character, but probably not much after this last time.

Basically, my problem is that I can get into a female mindset, but it takes me a while. That time I don't have while playing tabletop. This could just be linked to me being a horrible tabletop roleplayer in general(all my characters eventually devolving back into just whatever I would do in the situation), but I find it especially difficult to get into even the "tough girl" act. Online, however, I can take a bit, and get into character before posting. Which usually works out pretty well.

So, my two cents.

JadedDM
2007-04-11, 03:48 AM
And also, I didn't want to have to try to figure out the anatomical issues of female minotaurs. That would have been utterly pointless.

Don't you mean udderly pointless? :smalltongue:

I mostly just DM, so I often play females as NPCs. But I just treat them as people. My NPCs have their own agendas, goals, likes and dislikes, and personalities. Their gender does not really play any role in this.

Now I play online, so if a player 'crossplays', it's not as awkward. In fact, I even once roleplayed a romance between an NPC (a female) and one of the male controlled PCs.

Overall, though, I agree with Cyborg Pirate. I don't see much reason or incentive to play females in those rare instances where I'm a player. Unless you're playing in a setting that has strict gender roles, that is. But in default D&D, women and men are completely equal. This is how it is in my own games, too.

To suggest that your character's gender makes any difference at all suggests that the differences between men and women are larger than they really are. For example, I've noticed several people say something to the effect of "I'm told I play the opposite gender quite convincingly." Okay. Define 'convincingly'. If I were to make a female character...is there anyway I could have her act that would be 'unconvincing'? Is there anything I can make her do that would cause people to say, "A woman wouldn't do that"?

If I make a female character who is timid, weak, gentle and kind, is that the 'right way' or 'wrong way' to play a female? Likewise, if I make her sleep with every man she sees and prance around in minimal clothing, or I have her act tough and aggressive...would this be convincing or unconvincing? What does this mean, the 'female mindset?' When I roleplay a female, I don't ask myself, "What would a woman do in this situation?" I ask myself, "What would this character do in this situation?"

CockroachTeaParty
2007-04-11, 04:06 AM
I once played a changeling that switched between male and female quite a bit. It forgot what gender it originally was, so I don't know if that counts as playing in drag...

Edo
2007-04-11, 05:38 AM
My willingness to play in drag is really a function of whether I'm a DM or a player.

As a player, I only started playing my first female character a few weeks ago. As a DM, 90% of the NPCs that I'm most proud of creating are women.

I think it's a function of not being able to get into character. I have serious problems with thinking as my character in general; blogging as myself helps a good bit, but spending more than an hour in-character seriously slows down my reaction times, and the more the persona diverges from my own the worse it gets. For better or worse, I'm used to thinking as a male.

As a DM, I don't need to spend as much time thinking in character on the spot (since I have to manage the rest of the world), and it isn't an issue.

Or something like that. Yay, sleep deprivation.

Zincorium
2007-04-11, 05:44 AM
Personally, I've never had a real need to, and the one major thing holding me back from trying just for the heck of it is a persistent worry might get it wrong. Silly, I know, but I just feel much more comfortable as either male or genderless. I don't have a problem with other gamers doing it, although it often comes off as badly melodramatic in the wrong hands.

Pocket lint
2007-04-11, 07:07 AM
I play women at times. Mostly lithe, fairly bright, but somewhat prickly ones; rogues or spellcasters. Haven't gone for the athletic type yet, even though I have a friend who's the perfect role model for such a character - she's a stage hand and could probably break me in half. I know for a fact that she could pick me up and carry me with one hand...

As people have said, it's about what suits the character. I went with a guy this time, but the next concept I have thought out is a woman. Most characters I play have a fair amount of reserve, so I haven't played out any romantic angles yet. (And given the general level of *role*playing we do, it's not likely to happen).

As a DM, I've become aware that most of my NPCs are guys. Perhaps it's because the most memorable of them are pretty far out in their personalities, and I have difficulty coming up with a woman who is quite that paranoid/geeky/insensitive/whatever I want to emphasise. Perhaps looking at Nausicaa is a good idea - you can't go that wrong with introducing Kushana into a campaign. Any campaign.