You meet an old man in a bar

[themaque]

In another thread, people are saying how silly it is for high level NPC's to hire adventurers to deal with their problems. And there is a point to that but... how often does that really come up?

How often do you have lvl 15 or even lvl 10+ heroes sitting around a bar being hired by random old man to go deal with those pesky... alternate dimension armies?

[EvanescentHero]

Chances are that old man is an ex-adventurer/PC/person with PC class levels in the first place if he's hiring PCs to fight extradimensional threats, since most NPCs wouldn't know the meaning of extradimensional, much less about any threats from a different plane.

I dunno where exactly I'm going with this train of thought, but I guess it's worth discussing why your game world would be so uneventful for PCs that by the time they hit level fifteen, they have nothing better to do than sit around a tavern and listen to the raving madman down the bar.

[JFahy]

In another thread, people are saying how silly it is for high level NPC's to hire adventurers to deal with their problems. And there is a point to that but... how often does that really come up?

How often do you have lvl 15 or even lvl 10+ heroes sitting around a bar being hired by random old man to go deal with those pesky... alternate dimension armies?

By that level, I'd expect the heroes to have their own agendas and probably something other than beer to fill their daytime hours. Of course, if an alternate dimension army showed up and you were an experienced army-fighter, would they really have to come get you? Heroes worthy of the name would be contacting their old comrades and strapping up on their own.

Level 1 potential-heroes have a substantial amount of training, no heavy commitments to keep them at home, and they're very un-risk-averse. That's rare enough to be worth seeking out when you have a dangerous problem that needs solving.

People who say that you don't need adventurers because a town of 300 peasants + 300 bows = an army of 300 ready to run over the gnoll encampment (or githyanki army) are not living in any world I've ever seen or imagined. :smallconfused:

[themaque]

What about lower levels but still moderate? say 7 - 12?

Sub Question:
Do you have problems with the question "If there are Epic level people in this world, like FR, why don't THEY handle this?!?"

[TrexPushups]

By that level, I'd expect the heroes to have their own agendas and probably something other than beer to fill their daytime hours. Of course, if an alternate dimension army showed up and you were an experienced army-fighter, would they really have to come get you? Heroes worthy of the name would be contacting their old comrades and strapping up on their own.

Level 1 potential-heroes have a substantial amount of training, no heavy commitments to keep them at home, and they're very un-risk-averse. That's rare enough to be worth seeking out when you have a dangerous problem that needs solving.

People who say that you don't need adventurers because a town of 300 peasants + 300 bows = an army of 300 ready to run over the gnoll encampment (or githyanki army) are not living in any world I've ever seen or imagined. :smallconfused:


What about lower levels but still moderate? say 7 - 12?

Sub Question:
Do you have problems with the question "If there are Epic level people in this world, like FR, why don't THEY handle this?!?"

Seal Team 6 exists but we still have non-seal infantry men doing patrols and other combat missions.

It depends on the mission.

[cobaltstarfire]

Sub Question:
Do you have problems with the question "If there are Epic level people in this world, like FR, why don't THEY handle this?!?"

I do have a problem with that question, because the obvious answer to it is "the epic level people are dealing with the epic level problems"

I also have a problem with the assumption that the only thing an adventuring party can do is "handle problems" maybe they're just explorers and treasure hunters, who occasionally get caught up in something. Doesn't mean they're going to concern themselves with any given problem out there.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the rule is that the PCs are special people. For example if the Baron disguises himself once a month and visits a tavern to be among the common folk; and there are 12 taverns in town; and the chance of a brawl occurring in a tavern is one in 5 - if the party stops for one night in that town the odds of rescuing the Baron from a brawl in their tavern approaches 100% :smallsmile:

Which is another way of saying plot hooks happen and don't be a party pooper.

"There are no chance meetings in Middle Earth"

[themaque]

So what's your solution when someone says "Instead of dealing wit this, let's run away and turn it into the proper NPC?"

How DO you start a campaign for mid to higher levels?

I've never had a problem with either, i'm just curious how other people handle it generally.

[cobaltstarfire]

This first campaign I DM'd started at lv 5.

The characters were part of a traveling performance troupe, that already knew each other and each had their own reason for traveling.

And some troglodytes stole a lot of their pack animals.

It would have played out as a sandbox games. I had it planned so that their backstories would end up tying them together, and threw plot hooks across the map for them to stumble across and pursue if they wanted.

The game I'm in right now started at lv 1 but could have worked starting at higher levels too. Our characters just happened to be on the same caravan which got destroyed by an unnaturally bad sandstorm. Since we were the only really competent fighters other than some NPC's we met later, we ended up working together pretty closely for several levels and just sort of stuck together and started helping each other reach our goals.

[Ralanr]

Sub Question:
Do you have problems with the question "If there are Epic level people in this world, like FR, why don't THEY handle this?!?"

Reminds me of a character I loved writing lines for in a story. She had pretty much enough power to solve a lot of the problems that I would have had the characters faced. If ever asked why she wouldn't fully fix something personally I'd have her respond with something along the following:

"How can the generation of the present learn anything if the generation of the past keeps fixing everything?"

[Slipperychicken]

In another thread, people are saying how silly it is for high level NPC's to hire adventurers to deal with their problems. And there is a point to that but... how often does that really come up?

Not silly at all. An NPC might be able to do the quest himself, but that doesn't mean he enjoys trudging through dungeons and getting eaten alive by monsters. I'm sure there's a long list of things an NPC would rather do with his time. Even if the NPC might want to do it, he might not have the time, or he might be too important to risk on it, or he might have other obligations (i.e. family, work, research) which mean he can't just run off and adventure. He might have low Con or something like that, which makes any adventure a very risky business. Also, NPCs might value their lives a lot more than PCs do.

It's kind of like why I call experts when things need to be fixed. Often times, I technically could spend an afternoon or a weekend with Google/Wikihow and a set of tools and do the job myself (and risk screwing it up even more), or I could pay a specialist to do the job while I relax and enjoy leisure activities.

[Rowan Wolf]

Its Elminster and at this point we all know he isn't completely sane so why not have him hire some 'kids' to clear up his extra dimensional 'lawn' for whatever villians (read vermin) that he doesn't feel like dealing with.

[themaque]

Its Elminster and at this point we all know he isn't completely sane so why not have him hire some 'kids' to clear up his extra dimensional 'lawn' for whatever villians (read vermin) that he doesn't feel like dealing with.

You mean something like this?


"Yes yes greetings friends! I need you to handle this goblin, orc, THING that's going on at silverstream. I've got a hot date with an elvin Demi-god. and I want her to show her my rod of glory. If you know what I mean. :smallbiggrin:"

[coredump]

So what's your solution when someone says "Instead of dealing wit this, let's run away and turn it into the proper NPC?"

How DO you start a campaign for mid to higher levels?

I've never had a problem with either, i'm just curious how other people handle it generally.
Normally, timing. By the time you can tell the Big Shot in Baldurs Gate or Waterdeep that a dragon is attacking Greenest.... its several weeks too late.

Plus, presumably the PCs *want* to be adventurers..... they *want* to explore and rescue people. Yes its dangerous and crazy....but for whatever reason, they gave up farming or whatever to go do it.

Then you have to make it worthwhile for the Big Shot. Sure, if its some invasion where you are protecting innocents...but what about the Baron that wants the abandoned Keep cleared out....

[YossarianLives]

Why do people hire servants? These npcs are obviously very high level and have better things to do.

[goto124]

Do you have problems with the question "If there are Epic level people in this world, like FR, why don't THEY handle this?!?"

'Because my knees hurt. Now move along and solve the problem.'

[SiuiS]

By the time extra dimensional armies are involved, you're moving into "chess" territory.

The old man is hiring a group of adventurers to clear something out because he needs it cleared out and also has to be somewhere else – even if it's right here. Scrying, divination, magical lie detection and mind reading come into play.

Perhaps this old man knows the kobold warren is part of an old splintered clan that maybe has a sacred dragon bloodline. He knows through divinations that in three years that will lead to an apocalypse scenario. He knows that the cult that a I'll bring about that apocalypse is actively looking for any interference. So he hires adventurers and then shadows them, defeating inter dimensional magic assassins that go after the party – or hiring another party to protect the first one and maintain his anonymity.

Past level 10, you start getting things like the assassin'a guild head hiding who they are by givig orders to their lieutenant, who gives orders to them (in disguise), and they give their orders to their alternate is entity's lieutenant, who gives orders to the assassin in a third guide, who gives orders down a chain to the lower levels to get things done. This way, the assassin guild leader knows;
-who is doing a bad job of passing down orders
-who is trying to twist orders for their own use
-that if anyone can locate them, they've pierced layers of ablative misdirection
-that they can always defer responsibility up the chain because evenif they started the order cycle, they still recieved orders from a superior
-that even in magical scrying, they can still defer scrutiny up the chain unless the scryer has already figured out the number and type of fractalated iterations of technical obscurity used

And that's not even if you are a caster! I've seen someone with permanent true sight driven bonkers because a clever illusionist used disguise self to make himself look... Exactly the same but only 97% identical. The guy with true sight couldn't figure out why the guy was registering as transformed but was also no different! Lots of resources burned just to try and figure that out.

Once you get into the mental game, the answer is always "there's an answer, it's only a matter of whether you give up disgusted before figuring out the root". A DM can always just keep juggling.


So what's your solution when someone says "Instead of dealing wit this, let's run away and turn it into the proper NPC?"

How DO you start a campaign for mid to higher levels?

I've never had a problem with either, i'm just curious how other people handle it generally.

You roll with it.

Duke Carlstrad blinks at you. Clearly, this is an important issue! You've run up on him (after being cleared of course, lest he cut you down) as he ungirds himself, home from campaign against the Red Ledger bandits on the furthest edge of his territory. He holds his helmet – the Langstrader, a magical iron full helm made of a slain nemean's head, won at the war of three cliffs by his uncle Medry – and listens carefully to your tale.

"Let me get this straight." He says, turning. His horse whickers, still needing to be dressed down. "You heard that the baron strahsovich is planning a coup, and is raising several warrens of stone orcs in the caves outside Strahsoland? He plans to strike in 'three weeks', discounting the ten-day journey you took here?"

The duke's eyes roll over your weapons. Your polished armor. Your magical trinkets. After a moment you begin to fidget as all adventurers do, antsy, longing for the road. Your lithe and hale bodies flexing and swaying, well toned and reay for action.

"Why the hell did you waste my time rising out here instead of torching the stone Orc pits?! Dammit man, we have four damn days to fix this!"

[randomodo]

Regarding the question of "Why would a high-level NPC hire low-level PCs to do stuff," I've had two recent campaigns which began with PCs being hired/directed to go do something by more powerful NPCs. In both cases, I thought it made story sense.

In the first game, the PCs were to investigate a situation in a neighboring country that was occupied by their home country. There were a LOT of different ethnic, racial and religious factions involved in the process, and each PC had ties to a different faction.

The PCs were sent precisely BECAUSE they were low-level nobodies. That is, if any one of the factions had sent someone high level/promient, every other faction would have felt compelled to do so as well. Thus, the high-level NPCs thought it made sense to avoid escalatory behavior, so they got novices to go.

Second (my current game), a Thyatian noble has been granted title to lands in northwestern Karameikos. The PCs are hired to scout the land, survey the old castle which may (or may not) be the new home of the noble's family, and get a sense of what we might call the "human terrain" of not-very-welcoming Traladaran natives.

Again, my thoughts are that it makes sense for the nobility to send in a pathfinding team first. The new Baron isn't going to go move his entire retinue (and a couple villages worth of colonists) without knowing what he's getting into first.

--
As an aside, time is a valuable commodity for anyone, especially someone who in the real world or a fantasy world is actually powerful. There are many demands on such a person's time, and to the extent that things can be outsourced to a staff, they will be.

[kaoskonfety]

Generally everything past level 7 or so is "big leagues" in my games. You no longer need to go seeking adventure - it seeks you.

If the party, approached (in a bar, sure) by a cloaked aged looking Solar (Elminster, 20th level DOOM fighter- lets call him Conan) and tasked with a quest to strike down the minions of the Yu-anti Snake Gods before they rise from their tombs to strike down all that men have built these past thousand years... and they say "na, lets go kill orcs and buy more beer with their pocket money..."

Well, The Yu-anti Snake Gods rise from their tombs and begin striking down all that men have built these past 1000 years...

The Solar wasn't asking because he's lazy, he cannot get involved because of *REASON* (Gods cannot fight on the Primes, Angels are to direct a proxy, Elminster is busy **being an idiot Mary Sue better modelled by being a god than a character sheet**, Doom fighter is fighting the actual gods of the Yu-anti in Bator to give you any chance at all)

I'll have singular individuals notably stronger than level 9 scattered about a setting, chasing their agendas as archmagi, world druids, chief war lord or the invincible iron hordes - they may even have been a party back in the day. But they are not united any longer, they are aging and they are busy with grand agendas - and heaven hasn't asked nicely yet - "someone else will deal with it" mindset (sound familiar?). Each will make a grand showing of themselves as the end of the world marches on and over them - but march on it shall.

I'm sure the PC's will step up any minute now...

The general "high powered NPC" angle, when it does come up, is usually in the "I am busy" to "this task is trivial, I'm paying gold to make it happen, I'd rather read/spell research/continue sitting in the bar looking mysterious"