Learning the rules - does this work?

[MrStabby]

So rolling up my first character of the edition and I was thinking of doing a rogue - probably a back-alley thug type character with a focus on Str rather than Dex (requirements for sneak attack require a finesse weapon but don't require you to use dexterity with it).

My plan is to take, eventually the Dual Wielder and polearm mastery feats and dual wield a whip and a quarterstaff. This should let me hide behind front-line fighters to make my attacks able to be sneak attacks and the polearm master should allow me to make reaction attacks on my opponents turns with the whip to do 2*sneak attack damage per turn.

If the enemy does get upclose I can use disengage as a bonus action, move back, attack and get an opportunity attack all over again if they close with me.

Does this work?

My problem is that I think I may need to multiclass to get the martial weapon proficiency I need for the whip. I dont know what class to go for the get this ability and how far to go. The two Weapon fighting fighting style seems worth sticking in a class for a second level if I go ranger and some of the skills/spells would make the character more fun to play. Going hunter and getting the colossus slayer ability could make up for a sneak attack die (especially given the lengths I am going to to try and get reaction attacks) although horde breaker could also work.

Much as I would like to smite things I am not sure the paladin fits role play wise with the character core I want.

Fighter could be hard to say no to. A splash would give me heavy armour (if I began with it), TWF fighting style, second wind (quickly less use), and a second level would give Action surge which looks quite useful (although possibly only really worth a lot if I go assassin or if I miss with both attacks.) If I did take two levels I might then be tempted by a third to get an archetype: Improved critical isnt that exciting but given more of my damage comes from dice than for most combat characters this is quite nice, combat manuvers look fun and give me a resource to have to manage which should keep things interesting. Eldrich knight would give me two cantrips and a couple of level 1 spells (I don't really get a sense of how they scale in this edition though, even if I didn't have low/medium intelligence only). Of course if I went to 3rd level I would take the 4th for the feat.

Cleric could give me some of the same things with the appropriate domain (tempest/war). This is also going to give me guidance to help with the skill-monkey role. I actually think this is a pretty strong addition but I cant really see myself role playing this character.

Bards are interesting as a means to get martial weapon proficiency - Valor bard at lvl 3 gives me most of the armour as well. In addition I get a couple of levels of spells, another incidence of expertise, jack of all trades and a little help to the party's healing.

Barbarian also works for me if I can re-style it as a nasty, angry bar-room brawler type element to my character. Rage + high strength + expertise should give me awesome athletics check results, unarmored defense may be useful, Reckless attack would be superb if I need a reliable way of getting advantage for sneak attacks - especially if I can use reach to get out of range of being hit back.

Finally, I could take a pact of the blade warlock and take the whip as the pact weapon to be proficient in it. Again with 3 levels it would be worth taking the 4th for the feat. This seems a lot of an investment for not much return but a lot of the warlock invocations and low level spells could be useful in the right situation. Again I am not quite sure that it would directly fit my character concept but I am open to this one.

Which way do people think would be the best way to take it? Personally I am liking the Barbarian/Rogue option for character but I wonder if it would be fun to play. Battlemaster/Rogue, Valor Bard/Rogue or Ranger/Rogue would give me a few more abilities to play with and might be more fun.

Next question... which way to take the rogue side of the idea? Do I go arcane trickster (I can't see many spells I really want- am I missing some?), or do I go assassin (character-wise assassin seems much more my vision for the character than a rooftop scurrying nimble "second story work" type thief.

[Chronos]

If you really want to play a Str-based character, an alternate option might be to just go fighter or barbarian in the first place, and get your roguishness from the Criminal background. The drawback to trying to make a Str-based rogue is that multiclassing rogue requires Dex 13, and many roguish skills are also Dex-based, so you need to put decent stats into both Str and Dex.

Another alternative, of course, is just to forget about Str, and be Dex-based. Since you're using finesse weapons anyway to Sneak Attack with, there's almost no downside. There's no reason you couldn't be an agile thug instead of a strong thug.

[Kane0]

I believe sneak attack damage can only be applied once per round, which would mean that you won't get it to opportunity attacks if you hit during your turn. I'm afb right now though, could somebody verify?

Otherwise the idea is solid. You could focus dex and still be a thug, i'd probably dip into ranger, barbarian or warlock instead of fighter.

Oh and don't forget some of the nice things that a thief gets, i believe he has a use-all-magic-items-ever ability later on thats a godsend in the right game.

[Naanomi]

STR rogue is doable but i would do a level or two in fighter to round it out: a Multiclass build answers almost all your problems. May I recommend a shield, shield mastery, and shove-n-Stab?

[Person_Man]

Here's a guide to the 5E Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395706-Person_Man%92s-5E-Rogue-Guide) that you may wish look through, that weighs the benefits of the different sub-classes, Feats, etc.

Strength Rogue is do-able but not necessarily optimal. A lot depends on your ability scores and build goals.


My plan is to take, eventually the Dual Wielder and polearm mastery feats and dual wield a whip and a quarterstaff.

Quarterstaff is not a Finesse or Ranged weapon, and thus does not function with Sneak Attack. And by Extension, you can't use Sneak Attack with Polearm Mastery, or the combo you describe. This was probably intentional on the part of the designers. The worded Sneak Attack in such a way that it can't be combined with Monk unarmed attacks, Wildshape, Heavy Weapon Mastery, or Polearm Mastery, in order to avoid high damage at-will combos.



My problem is that I think I may need to multiclass to get the martial weapon proficiency I need for the whip.

You do not need to multiclass with Rogue. A strait Rogue is quite good at dealing high damage to single targets, it is very difficult to kill, is highly mobile, and is excellent at Skills.

On the flip side, it can multi-class effectively with a variety of different classes in some situations if you have different build goals, but it depends on the specifics.

What are your ability scores and build goals?

[holygroundj]

I believe sneak attack damage can only be applied once per round, which would mean that you won't get it to opportunity attacks if you hit during your turn. I'm afb right now though, could somebody verify?

This is not correct. Sneak attack is once per turn, so it can apply during OAs, or something along the lines of a Battlemaster's Commander's strike.

[MrStabby]

STR rogue is doable but i would do a level or two in fighter to round it out: a Multiclass build answers almost all your problems. May I recommend a shield, shield mastery, and shove-n-Stab?

Hmm. I like this. I am not sure if it is quite the build I am going for this time but I will certainly put this away for the future.


Here's a [URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?395706-Person_Man%92s-5E-Rogue-Guide"]
Quarterstaff is not a Finesse or Ranged weapon, and thus does not function with Sneak Attack. And by Extension, you can use Sneak Attack with Polearm Mastery, or the combo you describe. This was probably intentional on the part of the designers. The worded Sneak Attack in such a way that it can't be combined with Monk unarmed attacks, Wildshape, Heavy Weapon Mastery, or Polearm Mastery, in order to avoid high damage at-will combos.

Ah, in this case I am not making the attack with the quarterstaff, I am just using the ability to make a reaction attack when someone comes within range. Normally I don't think this would work as the other weapon would be out of range but the whip (which is a finesse weapon) also has reach so I don't see why it can't be used.

Also thanks for the rogue guide - I will read through that and see what jumps out as being useful for my Mr Whippy.


Regarding multiclassing generally, I like it as I think if you do it well it adds more depth to a character. A touch of fighter turns you from being a Cleric to a martial cleric whose faith takes him to the front-lines. Add a bit of barbarian to get a cleric that rages at injustice in the world, a spot of rogue to create an inquisitor who uses social skills to find and hunt down heretics... Where feasible I always like to add a little touch of multiclass to my characters (much easier now than 3rd ed with all those XP penalties!)

[Myzz]

My plan is to take, eventually the Dual Wielder and polearm mastery feats and dual wield a whip and a quarterstaff. This should let me hide behind front-line fighters to make my attacks able to be sneak attacks and the polearm master should allow me to make reaction attacks on my opponents turns with the whip to do 2*sneak attack damage per turn.

Double Check with the DM, that indeed they will work this combo the way you think it should work. Per RAW, your probably right that this combo works... As a DM, I'd not allow it. Quarterstaves only trigger PM in my games when wielding 2 handed. Also, in my games, PM only triggers an AoO with the weapon that is a polearm (unless you also have WarCaster, in which case you can substitute your Cantrip attack for the AoO).



Next question... which way to take the rogue side of the idea? Do I go arcane trickster (I can't see many spells I really want- am I missing some?), or do I go assassin (character-wise assassin seems much more my vision for the character than a rooftop scurrying nimble "second story work" type thief.

IF your DM is cool with the use of the combo you want to use... Sneak attack works on your turn attacks, and on their turn when they approach using your AoO. If your First in Initiative, move in and attack (gets sneak attack if you have advantage), take bonus action to disengage, move back and when they move in to attack on their turn you get an AoO that gets your sneak attack (if you have advantage...)

Arcane Trickster L 13: Versatile Trickster gives you free advantage on targets using your Mage Hand Legerdemain...

Of note... Barbarian would be a decent MC aspect with this build. If your not going to have other ways to gain advantage to get your sneak attack in during your turn and during AoO's, then L2 Reckless Attack might be a decent option (you don't even need to be raging to do it, but it does use Str based attacks). If you start as a Barbarian you'd get 4 extra HP's at level 1, Medium armor and Shields, AND Martial Weapons... Could also eventually get to L5 for Extra Attack...

Might actually Play it as a Barbarian until after Level 4 (ASI), then get Rogue, (can go back and get extra attack at any point). L3 Bear Totem would be quite sweet. (although not just getting L5 Extra Attack before starting as a rogue would be awefully hard...)

IF you MC into Barbarian from Rogue, you do get Martial Weapons and Shields, but NOT Medium Armor...

[Person_Man]

Ah, in this case I am not making the attack with the quarterstaff, I am just using the ability to make a reaction attack when someone comes within range.

As Myzz stated, that is not the RAI for the Feat, and the designers have Tweeted such. They specifically did not want players to be able to combine Polearm Master with a whip, finesse weapon, heavy weapon, etc. And in general, the design philosophy behind 5E is that rules do only what they say they do (and not what you think they might do when combined in unexpected ways), and are not intended to require a high level of rules mastery to understand or use. This is different from 3.X or 4E, where players were assumed to spend a ton of time on their build finding rule synergies.

If your DM rules otherwise, then obviously you could. But that's probably a losing bargain, because then you'll have to worry about enemies who are pulling out weird combos out against you that you can't intuit through observation.




Regarding multiclassing generally, I like it as I think if you do it well it adds more depth to a character. A touch of fighter turns you from being a Cleric to a martial cleric whose faith takes him to the front-lines. Add a bit of barbarian to get a cleric that rages at injustice in the world, a spot of rogue to create an inquisitor who uses social skills to find and hunt down heretics... Where feasible I always like to add a little touch of multiclass to my characters (much easier now than 3rd ed with all those XP penalties!)

Fair enough. Just note that multi-classing often screws up your Ability Score (which can strongly effect to-hit rolls, AC, etc)/Feat progression, which is a very big deal in 5E, and multi-classing can seriously screw up your expected damage from your at-will attacks (because you miss out on Extra Attack or Sneak Attack progression).

[Easy_Lee]

Quarterstaves don't have reach, so you wouldn't need to use a whip. That said, few if any DMs are going to let you opportunity attack with a weapon other than your polearm if you're getting the attack from polearm mastery. The common tactic of combining polearm mastery with warcaster to fire off a cantrip is, similarly, technically possible while neither intended (according to dev twitters) or likely to be allowed depending on your DM.

If you want to get lots of sneak attacks as reactions, here are some better ways to do it:

Sentinel and Mage Slayer feats, which can grant extra opportunities for reaction attacks
Take the marital adept feat or multiclass into fighter BM for riposte and some other useful maneuvers.
Have a BM fighter companion use commanding strike and give you the extra attack

[coredump]

Few issues you may need to discuss with your DM.

Will he allow a ton of SA damage from a whip?
Will he allow you to use a quarterstaff one handed?
If allowed 1-handed, will he allow the extra bonus attack from PAM?
Will he allow the whip to be used for the AoO caused by the quarterstaff and PAM?
Will he allow the Whip reach** to be used for the 'reach' of PAM and AoOs?


**Now, if you want to ride the edge of RAW.... also realize that technically, for PAM AoO purposes, your reach is still only 5'. Technically, by RAW, a Reach weapon only increases your Reach "when you attack with it". So PAM will only ever trigger a AoO when someone moves within 5' of you. (which actually makes sense, since you are hitting them *before* they get to that range.)

[MrStabby]

Double Check with the DM, that indeed they will work this combo the way you think it should work. Per RAW, your probably right that this combo works... As a DM, I'd not allow it.

Yeah, worth checking then.

If not then maybe shield and whip loadout with a slavedriver backstory. I can knock people to the ground and whip the crap out of them. Maybe war cleric (1) for the bonus action, martial weapons and heavy armour (if I took arcane trickster for the spell slots I should be able to keep shield of faith up most combats - guidance to help with occasional athletics checks couldnt harm either) . Possibly later add fighter for riposte attacks or barbarian to help with athletics checks.

I have to say that this use of the polearm feat didn't strike me as particularly bad. For example it did not seem worse than using it with sentinal and Tempest cleric (anything that tries to get to you gets stopped if you hit it, anything that you miss you can push back on your next turn).

[Chronos]

Some feats and multiclass options are highly valued for giving you something to use your bonus action on... but rogues really don't need that. You already have multiple good uses for your bonus action, every round, consistently. Any round you attack with the haft of your polearm, or shove someone with your shield, is a round that you're not hiding, dashing, or disengaging, or possibly using an item or picking a pocket.

As for the rogue subclasses, if your goal is just to do tons of damage in combat, well, that's pretty much what Assassin is designed for, and it does it well. Arcane Trickster mostly adds utility (very nice utility, mind you, but mostly out of combat), and Thief is a bit underwhelming (Use Magic Device is unlikely to actually come up, since magic items are rare to begin with, most can be used by anyone anyway, and the ones that can't can likely be used by some other party member).

[Easy_Lee]

Some feats and multiclass options are highly valued for giving you something to use your bonus action on... but rogues really don't need that. You already have multiple good uses for your bonus action, every round, consistently. Any round you attack with the haft of your polearm, or shove someone with your shield, is a round that you're not hiding, dashing, or disengaging, or possibly using an item or picking a pocket.

I believe he was more looking for ways to get reaction attacks, since those can add SA damage if they qualify due to the wording of sneak attack (once per turn). That said, there are sometimes situations where a rogue would want to bonus action attack; for example, when one misses with the attack action.

[MrStabby]

Actually it is the Reaction rather than the Bonus action I care about if I am using the dual wielder.

The bonus action was something I saw as important for the strength build so I could push people over for sneak attack advantage then still hit them before they got up.


Edit: and this is what happens when I post an hour after writing it...

[Myzz]

Actually it is the Reaction rather than the Bonus action I care about if I am using the dual wielder.

The bonus action was something I saw as important for the strength build so I could push people over for sneak attack advantage then still hit them before they got up.


Edit: and this is what happens when I post an hour after writing it...

As I noted in my first post... You can get the advantage with Reckless Attack from Barbarian, but give attackers advantage when they attack you too...

That would free you from having to spend an action to put someone on the ground to get your sneak attack in...

I'd recommend Battlemaster for tripping attack or something similar, but the fact is you Superiority Dice will likely run out before you finish a fight just utilizing them to get sneak attacks in.

Shield Master could work, if you want to go that route... But again using an attack that could be put towards dmg to maybe get your advantage...

[Yagyujubei]

I believe sneak attack damage can only be applied once per round, which would mean that you won't get it to opportunity attacks if you hit during your turn. I'm afb right now though, could somebody verify?

Otherwise the idea is solid. You could focus dex and still be a thug, i'd probably dip into ranger, barbarian or warlock instead of fighter.

Oh and don't forget some of the nice things that a thief gets, i believe he has a use-all-magic-items-ever ability later on thats a godsend in the right game.

once per turn. so once during the attack on your turn, and again on an OA during an enemy turn.

[MrStabby]

I think the better use of superiority dice would be in repostes.

Yeah, barbarian(2) is probably a more efficient way of getting advantage. I do see the bar-room-brawler as potentially being pretty good.

[Naanomi]

Rogue 18/Barbarian 2.... Free advantage, no drawback?

[SharkForce]

https://twitter.com/SatsumaOranges/status/514447654328483840

not official, but one of the lead developers specifically said he'd allow monk/rogue multiclass to sneak attack with monk weapons. monks multiclass reasonably well with rogue already, so if you want a PAM build that uses a quarterstaff and gets sneak attack, this is the route I would probably go (after consulting with your DM).