Polymorphed Objects and Souls

[Maglubiyet]

(re-posting from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?403459-Human-Elf-Romance-and-Life-Extension) because it's way off topic from the OP's question)

If you cast Polymorph Any Object on an inanimate object and turn it into a sentient being, does it possess a soul?

Specifically, what happens if you kill it and then cast Animate Dead on its corpse? Or Raise Dead?

What happens if you cast Trap the Soul on it? Will it work? And what happens inside the gem after the spell duration elapses?

What about Magic Jar?

[Jack_Simth]

Specifically, what happens if you kill it and then cast Animate Dead on its corpse? Or Raise Dead?Polymorph Any Object inherits a clause from Polymorph: "If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead."

So a block of stone polymorphed into a person and then killed... reverts to a block of stone (a shattered block of stone, but still). It's not a "dead creature" or a "corpse" anymore, and is not a valid target for Animate or Raise dead.

Trap the Soul will still work (despite the name, it doesn't actually operate on souls per se) so it'll continue to function. Presumably, like with most spells where the target is invalid post-cast, the gem will continue to exist just fine, and the block of stone will be released when you break the gem.

The other questions are a bit more interesting, but are not specified in RAW, so you're in "ask your DM" territory.

[Maglubiyet]

I don't see anything that says you couldn't polymorph something into a dead body. Unless that doesn't count as an object. One of the examples is "wolf fur" though, which is dead material, so "skeleton" might work.

I would assume you can't create an Undead creature because of the prohibition on creating magic.

[Curmudgeon]

I don't see anything that says you couldn't polymorph something into a dead body.
Actually, that's the only sort of "creature" you can create from an object. Polymorph Any Object has no ability to create life or Hit Dice except where duplicating a spell like Stone to Flesh, so creatures created from non-creatures are actually corpses.

[Maglubiyet]

Actually, that's the only sort of "creature" you can create from an object. Polymorph Any Object has no ability to create life or Hit Dice except where duplicating a spell like Stone to Flesh, so creatures created from non-creatures are actually corpses.

Well, it grants an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma score if the original object didn't have those, so I think it can create living from unliving. The example in the text specifically says "pebble to human".

[Jack_Simth]

Well, it grants an Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma score if the original object didn't have those, so I think it can create living from unliving. The example in the text specifically says "pebble to human".In the tables, you've also got "wolf fur to wolf" and "Marionette to human", yes. It's very clear that the intent is to give you a live creature in such cases, even though it doesn't tell you what to do about hit dice, BAB, skills, saves, and a fair number of other things.

[Maglubiyet]

In the tables, you've also got "wolf fur to wolf" and "Marionette to human", yes. It's very clear that the intent is to give you a live creature in such cases, even though it doesn't tell you what to do about hit dice, BAB, skills, saves, and a fair number of other things.

I would guess that it follows the Polymorph rule: "The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level."

But does that mean you can't create a creature that is normally more than 15HD? Or does it mean that if you do, that creature is capped at 15HD? So many variables...


What I really want to see is polymorph a stone into a skeleton, then Create Greater Undead on the skeleton and create a spectre. Now you have an incorporeal undead. Then Raise it.

[Jack_Simth]

I would guess that it follows the Polymorph rule: "The assumed form can't have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject's HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level."

But does that mean you can't create a creature that is normally more than 15HD? Or does it mean that if you do, that creature is capped at 15HD? So many variables...
Objects do not generally have hit dice. The spell is clearly intended to let you turn objects into creatures. The specific mechanics are left undefined, and are thus up to the DM. There is no real rules-based answer to what happens when you do.

I'm personally fond of using Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, and Polymorph Any Object to create lesser Stone Golems - you are in all senses the creator of the resulting creature, and the golem type entry explicitly grants control of golems to their creators with the option of passing off that control. Kingdom (Mineral), Class (Stone), Size (Large - you can explicitly shape the results of a Wall of Stone spell however you like, and can do so again with Stone Shape), same or lower Int (-) = +11 Duration Factor = Permanent. Call them "siege golems" and sell them to the town guard for cheap, letting the guard know all the drawbacks relative to a standard stone golem, so that there can be nothing said about tricking them. Sell them porters to the harbor master. Sell them to travelling merchants as horses which will never need feed or rest, and can aid the merchant in combat to boot. Sure, they're slower... but something with a move of 50 that works 8 hours a day vs. something with a move of 20 that works 24 hours a day? The horse gets 40 miles, the golem gets 48 (and can hustle for 96 miles a day or run for 192 miles/day if needed at no penalty... so really, the siege golem towing your wagon can actually get you considerably farther in a day; it also never spooks). Moreover, you don't need as many seige golems as you do horses. A heavy horse is a Large Quadruped with a strength of 16. A Seige Golem is a Large biped with a strength of 29. Per Carrying Capacity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/carryingCapacity.htm#liftingandDragging), this means the heavy horse can drag 3,450 pounds (6,900 with "favorable conditions"), while the golem can drag 14,000 pounds (28,000 with "favorable conditions"). That's the towing capacity of four horses. As to their HP, they keep that of the original block of stone. The Wall of Stone spell specifies the HP of a wall of stone: 15 HP per inch of thickness. Fold the Wall over onto itself repeatedly to make your block, and at caster level 16, that 16 squares of 4 inches each works out to 64 inches or 960 hp. Even without DR, these things are pretty durable.

But talk with your DM before you pull these sorts of shenanigans.

Makes fun world-building, though; the market price of a casting of Polymorph Any Object (I'm assuming someone simply quarries the stone, and that the cost for a large block of simple rough stone is negligible) is only 1,200 gp. In 3.5, NPC level 2 wealth by level is 2k. In Pathfinder, NPC wealth for level 4 basic (3rd Heroic) is 1,650 gp. These things are less expensive than the +1 bows/swords the average town guardsman are expected to have. As a logical consequence of a proliferation of magic, a city big enough to have a reasonably trusted 15th level Wizard would quite reasonably have several of these things under the command of the shift captain backing up the town guard at each gate and at every location that actually needs to be defended (A Wizard-15 can make one or more a day during down-time, as can a Cleric-15, with the right domain or UMD and a domain staff, and they last until destroyed, so there could be a rather lot of them). If the 15th level wizard is not reasonably trusted, or if the town does not have a 15th level wizard, this does not apply. But the party might get a teensy bit nervous when they walk into a town and see what looks like stone golems everywhere (guarding doors, carrying loads, patrolling under the direction of the town guard, et cetera). Oh yes, and the appearence can be customized per the description ("Its body is frequently stylized to suit its creator."), so the Wizard making them can put on, oh, the crest of the noble who's house they are guarding, the sigil of the town guard, or whatever.



What I really want to see is polymorph a stone into a skeleton, then Create Greater Undead on the skeleton and create a spectre. Now you have an incorporeal undead. Then Raise it.
Then you've got a bizarre case the rules never intended. This is not uncommon in D&D 3.5.

Strictly speaking:
0) Starting state: You have a Stone
1) Cast Polymorph Any Object: Now you have a corpse (probably)
2) Cast Animate Dead / Create [Greater] Undead / Similar: You now have an undead (better than average odds)
3) Cast Resurrection on the undead: Error. The rules state "These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead." - and while you just hit an Undead with a Resurrection spell, the creature was never a living creature to begin with.

Places the DM can interrupt prior to rules error at the end of step 3 without being remotely out of line with the rules:
Step 1: A "Dead Creature" is, by definition, dead, and Polymorph Any Object expires when the target does. Corpse immediately reverts to stone.
Step 3: Soul is not available or willing to return (never existed), so the Resurrection spell fails, and you've got an undead on your hands, still.

Places the DM can interrupt prior to rules error via reasonable world-building:
Step 2: Undead are actually powered by the enslaved and tortured souls of the slain tricked into thinking they were being resurrected. No soul, so no animation is possible.

Or the DM can just give you an arbitrary adult commoner-1 who has no past, no skills, no feats, and no memories at the end of step 3 (deities in D&D are generally considered permitted to create souls, so letting the Divine Magic pull it off isn't out of line). And he reverts to a stone (but remains alive and maintains his intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores) when dispelled.

[Maglubiyet]

I'm personally fond of using Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, and Polymorph Any Object to create lesser Stone Golems

Doesn't this violate the "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell" clause?


Places the DM can interrupt prior to rules error at the end of step 3 without being remotely out of line with the rules:
Step 1: A "Dead Creature" is, by definition, dead, and Polymorph Any Object expires when the target does. Corpse immediately reverts to stone.


I think you'd be okay through at least Step 1. This would seem to follow the rules for Stone to Flesh -- "The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)"

It begs the question where the "vital life force" comes from with Polymorph Any Object, though. Lesser versions of Polymorph, like StF, can't create it.

[Jack_Simth]

I think you'd be okay through at least Step 1. This would seem to follow the rules for Stone to Flesh -- "The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.)"

It begs the question where the "vital life force" comes from with Polymorph Any Object, though. Lesser versions of Polymorph, like StF, can't create it.
There are a few spells that create a temporary creature that has Con, Int, Wis, and Charisma scores. Phantom Steed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm), for instance. Shambler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shambler.htm) is another.

As a temporary creature that lasts until the spell duration runs out, I generally just assume that the "vital life force" is a construct of magic as much as the rest and runs out when the magic does.

Doesn't this violate the "A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell" clause?Golems are made in the same way as magic items, but they are very much not themselves magic items. A real golem cannot be dispelled via Dispel Magic, and can pound things just fine inside of an antimagic field.