VOP at a later level

[graeylin]

I am joining a low magic, low gold game, with a Vow of Poverty PC. However, my PC did not take the vow until 12th level.

At that level, my pc had 20,000 gold to spend (wbl, in this game). Other than spending 3000 for the Oytugh Hole trick, to get Iron Will as a feat, are there any other permanent items a PC could buy for under 20K, that would not be a material possession when they took their vow, and would be retained after?

20K isn't enough for a tome to bump an ability score, nor a wish spell. Are there any good spells I could purchase and have permanencied? There's always the potential loss of those, however, with a dispel magic, but it's something.

What about grafts or things that become part of me?

[Jack_Simth]

I am joining a low magic, low gold game, with a Vow of Poverty PC. However, my PC did not take the vow until 12th level.

At that level, my pc had 20,000 gold to spend (wbl, in this game). Other than spending 3000 for the Oytugh Hole trick, to get Iron Will as a feat, are there any other permanent items a PC could buy for under 20K, that would not be a material possession when they took their vow, and would be retained after?

20K isn't enough for a tome to bump an ability score, nor a wish spell. Are there any good spells I could purchase and have permanencied? There's always the potential loss of those, however, with a dispel magic, but it's something.

What about grafts or things that become part of me?
Poorly defined, ask your DM. There are a lot of grafts (if those are permitted, they may or may not be), and quite a few spells that can be made permanent; specific recommendations can really only be made after we have a rough idea of the character. It's usually best just to have the feat at 1st to avoid these questions.

However: If it's a low wealth game, Vow of Poverty is probably an overpowered feat. It's designed to let a character keep up with a party with standard Wealth by Level. It is intended to map the AC, save, stat, and magic weapon boosts that a WotC expected standard (read: "Low optimization") character would have at those levels so that a character with no wealth is at least viable. Unless the rest of the party is doing that sort of optimization, using Vow of Poverty mostly as listed is very likely to result in your character outshining everyone else's, especially if you squeeze in the effects of a hefty amount of wealth prior to taking the feat in such a way that you don't lose them afterwards.

[Jowgen]

You can get yourself some skill focuses, a luck feat, and a few other minor feats via the handful of other magical locations that are lying about. This link's list is probably not exhaustive, but non-obscure sources can be a good thing.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268363-Permanent-Magical-Locations

Other than that, you might be able to swing for grafts, based on how they're explicitly not magic items. Sadly, the alignment requirements for VoP will rather make some of the nicer (i.e. Fiendish) grafts rather impractical for you, but here you go: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12154.0

[Curmudgeon]

Grafts aren't magical — except where they explicitly are. For instance, the Deathless Visage (Magic of Eberron, pages 128-129) and Scorching Gaze grafts (page 133) give you gaze attacks.
Gaze attacks not produced by a spell are supernatural.

[Jowgen]

Grafts aren't magical — except where they explicitly are. For instance, the Deathless Visage (Magic of Eberron, pages 128-129) and Scorching Gaze grafts (page 133) give you gaze attacks.

Well spotted.

[Necroticplague]

Grafts aren't magical — except where they explicitly are. For instance, the Deathless Visage (Magic of Eberron, pages 128-129) and Scorching Gaze grafts (page 133) give you gaze attacks.

Just because the graft gives you a supernatural ability doesn't make the graft a magic item.

[sideswipe]

take VOP. take leadership before hand and give your 20000 gold to your cohort. kit him out in bling.

[EyethatBinds]

take VOP. take leadership before hand and give your 20000 gold to your cohort. kit him out in bling.

Pretty sure that VoP explicitly states that you don't give your wealth to party members. It all goes to them poor orphans or whatever losers the character chooses to subsidize.

I would say with feats such as VoP anyone attempting to circumvent the rules in this manner would not be eligible for any exalted feats.

[Necroticplague]

Pretty sure that VoP explicitly states that you don't give your wealth to party members. It all goes to them poor orphans or whatever losers the character chooses to subsidize.

Actually, that's not stated in VOP. The Vow only states you can't own or use items not on a small list, no statement about where your money must go. Leave it where it lies or turn it to ash for all your Vow cares.

[EyethatBinds]

I'll re-read the feat (can't currently since I'm working), but I'm fairly certain it does state you still collect a share of the treasure and then must in some way give that share to charity.

[Necroticplague]

I'll re-read the feat (can't currently since I'm working), but I'm fairly certain it does state you still collect a share of the treasure and then must in some way give that share to charity.

Here, to save you the trouble, here's a copy-paste of the 'special' section of the feat.

To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: you may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.

If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.

Nothing about donating jack squat.

[sideswipe]

Pretty sure that VoP explicitly states that you don't give your wealth to party members. It all goes to them poor orphans or whatever losers the character chooses to subsidize.

I would say with feats such as VoP anyone attempting to circumvent the rules in this manner would not be eligible for any exalted feats.

well actually it would go like this.

your whole adventure you never had an affinity with any material wealth, so you just store your money for a rainy day.

a little bit later you have a weaker mini-me appear, you feel like he will just get killed around you due to his weakness so you spend your life savings on him to beef him up. later (after your money is gone) you decide to forgo wealth forever and give your share split between your cohort and some orphans/ beggers/ chapels.

[Doctor Awkward]

Rules for donations are covered in Chapter Two, under Variant Rules, right after the section where VoP benefits are listed.
They aren't required for someone taking a Vow of Poverty. They are all at the DM's discretion.

EDIT: After actually reading the entire entry...

[eggynack]

Here, to save you the trouble, here's a copy-paste of the 'special' section of the feat.

To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: you may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf -- you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion's ebony fly. You may not, however, "borrow" a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.

If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.


Nothing about donating jack squat.
Wrong place. You want other ramifications of poverty under voluntary poverty on page 30. To quote:

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be
as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor).

[EyethatBinds]

It is certainly RAI, but I tend to enforce the exalted feats as they tend to offer more potent abilities than normal feat choices. If someone is specifically tailoring the situation so they can avoid giving up the least of their possessions possible, they're clearly just going for power which isn't really in the spirit of a good character.

Just comes off a bit saccharine.

[eggynack]

It is certainly RAI, but I tend to enforce the exalted feats as they tend to offer more potent abilities than normal feat choices. If someone is specifically tailoring the situation so they can avoid giving up the least of their possessions possible, they're clearly just going for power which isn't really in the spirit of a good character.
That's not really true, for the most part. First, considering the vows aside from poverty, peace, and non-violence, the benefits tend to be much less than those of good feats, even without considering the drawback. Next, considering poverty, peace, and non-violence, the benefits are good, sometimes better than what's available otherwise (But not always. Not even always with VoP), but the drawbacks are so ridiculous that the feats are active reducers of character power. Vow of poverty in particular ranges from absolutely crippling to a character to only a bit worse than normal, and it never really breaks even, and definitely doesn't push ahead outside of particular game circumstances (low wealth or low optimization).

Finally, considering the rest of the exalted feats, there are absolutely some gems, but many of the feats are just awful. Like, without looking at the exalted drawback, they're much worse than other feats that are already horrible. So, in conclusion, being somewhat lenient with exalted drawbacks tends to be more of a power equalizer than a key to massive greatness. It makes sense to consider circumstances outside of the feats, like the character's tier placement, before allowing craziness, but if someone's running a vow of poverty monk, then just let them have their frigging grafts.

[graeylin]

Thanks for the input folks...

actually, several of us are taking VOP or related feats, kind of a one-shot, suicide mission thing. So, we don't expect to survive the run. I think that's one reason, IRL and in game, that our PC's are giving up possessions. We don't have many to begin with (20K gold at 12th level?), so why not give them up, and walk into hell with some exaltedness?

[EyethatBinds]

Finally, considering the rest of the exalted feats, there are absolutely some gems, but many of the feats are just awful. Like, without looking at the exalted drawback, they're much worse than other feats that are already horrible. So, in conclusion, being somewhat lenient with exalted drawbacks tends to be more of a power equalizer than a key to massive greatness. It makes sense to consider circumstances outside of the feats, like the character's tier placement, before allowing craziness, but if someone's running a vow of poverty monk, then just let them have their frigging grafts.

While I don't completely agree about the feat power to drawback ratio, I wasn't really arguing against grafts. More giving all your possessions to a cohort so you DON'T have to give any to charity or anyone but someone who can directly benefit you. That's ignoring the spirit of the rules far more than grafts.

[eggynack]

While I don't completely agree about the feat power to drawback ratio, I wasn't really arguing against grafts. More giving all your possessions to a cohort so you DON'T have to give any to charity or anyone but someone who can directly benefit you. That's ignoring the spirit of the rules far more than grafts.
I mostly mean bypasses in the general sense, as opposed to in the graft sense, though basically keeping all of your gold is getting rid of too much of the drawback. There are good in between places, however, and it's a bad idea from a balance perspective to take the hardest possible line, or I suppose the second hardest possible line, because the hardest line kills the vow if you stare at a painting. VoP is just usually not a good tool for power gaming, outside of methods that bypass all issues.

As for the ratio of power to drawback, the best base for vow of poverty is almost certainly druid, and even for them there is nearly no level where vow is better than no vow. At early levels, where the drawback from poverty is minimal, you're still down a decent amount more than a feat in value (trading two normal feats for one or two exalted feats), in exchange for very limited bonuses, and at later levels, where the bonuses start coming into their own, gold becomes ridiculously powerful. The only level where I think an argument might exist to any extent is eight, because you can pick up exalted wild shape a level early, and even that is a toss up.

[Necroticplague]

Wrong place. You want other ramifications of poverty under voluntary poverty on page 30. To quote:

Having a character in the party who has taken a vow of poverty should not necessarily mean that the other party members get bigger shares of treasure! An ascetic character must be
as extreme in works of charity as she is in self-denial. The majority of her share of party treasure (or the profits from the sale thereof) should be donated to the needy, either directly (equipping rescued captives with gear taken from their fallen captors) or indirectly (making a large donation to a temple noted for its work among the poor).

The part about not just giving it to your party members is merely a suggestion. Note that the only 'must' in their is that they must be charitable (and giving to the other party members is still charity). All else is 'should', indicating mere suggestion. Even taking that into account, it doesn't say that you can lose the benefits of your Vow for not following those guidelines. So still, the only way to lose your vow is to posses or use material possession not on the whitelist.

[atemu1234]

The part about not just giving it to your party members is merely a suggestion. Note that the only 'must' in their is that they must be charitable (and giving to the other party members is still charity). All else is 'should', indicating mere suggestion. Even taking that into account, it doesn't say that you can lose the benefits of your Vow for not following those guidelines. So still, the only way to lose your vow is to posses or use material possession not on the whitelist.

Also, it never said who runs the charity, what the proceeds need to go towards, etc...

[Curmudgeon]

Just because the graft gives you a supernatural ability doesn't make the graft a magic item.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Certainly looks that way to me.

[Necroticplague]

Certainly looks that way to me.

How so? It gives you a magic ability, that much is very clear, and I agree on that point. However, that does not make the graft, itself, a magic item.

[Curmudgeon]

How so? It gives you a magic ability, that much is very clear, and I agree on that point. However, that does not make the graft, itself, a magic item.
Really? What other non-magical items in D&D grant magical abilities without being magic items?

[eggynack]

Really? What other non-magical items in D&D grant magical abilities without being magic items?
That's not really an argument in and of itself. If supernatural grafts just happen to be the only only item that grants magical abilities without being a magic item, then so be it. It might not be the case that supernatural grafts aren't magic items, but it being a potentially unprecedented case doesn't make it a non-existent case.

[Metahuman1]

Thanks for the input folks...

actually, several of us are taking VOP or related feats, kind of a one-shot, suicide mission thing. So, we don't expect to survive the run. I think that's one reason, IRL and in game, that our PC's are giving up possessions. We don't have many to begin with (20K gold at 12th level?), so why not give them up, and walk into hell with some exaltedness?

Buy a Candle of Invocation and chain wish the stat boosts you'd get form Tome's instead. Can be done for 9,000 GP.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you don't plan on ever making any Cha-based checks to deal with NPCs, consider acquiring the Feathered Wings graft in Fiend Folio. You'll also want a way to heal ability damage quickly, such as Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody), since a good aligned character with a fiendish graft could be taking 1d3 Wis damage per day if you're bad at rolling Will saves.

Check out Table: Special Ability Types (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm), specifically this part: "Antimagic Field: Does an antimagic field or similar magic suppress the ability?" If the answer to that is yes, then it's either spell-like or supernatural; if the answer to that is 'no', then it's extraordinary.

The benefit of the gaze attack grafts goes away in an AMF, but it would continue to function if it was extraordinary, therefore it's magical.

[Curmudgeon]

That's not really an argument in and of itself. If supernatural grafts just happen to be the only only item that grants magical abilities without being a magic item, then so be it. It might not be the case that supernatural grafts aren't magic items, but it being a potentially unprecedented case doesn't make it a non-existent case.
You've just identified these grafts as being magical by the bolded term. :smallbiggrin:

If you could find any other example it would help your case. I'm more interested in getting to the truth of the rules rather than being right already.

[eggynack]

You've just identified these grafts as being magical by the bolded term. :smallbiggrin:

If you could find any other example it would help your case. I'm more interested in getting to the truth of the rules rather than being right already.
True and fair enough, respectively. Closest I can think of offhand is those BoED relics, though those have that whole weird "not magic in the traditional sense" deal. Never thought that crazy VoP argument from way back when would come in handy.

[Doctor Awkward]

I would try to look at things thusly:

An argument which suggests grafts might not be magical items also suggests that there exists a world wherein a piece of monster carcass sewn onto your flesh that grants you a superpower is not considered by that world's inhabitants to be a magical item.

[Troacctid]

Really? What other non-magical items in D&D grant magical abilities without being magic items?

That's a really interesting question. Hmm. What about nonmagical abilities that grant magical abilities? Fell Conspiracy (EoE) is a feat (extraordinary ability) that allows ritual participants to cast message at will (spell ability).

Also, wouldn't the normally magical nature of a gaze attack (general rule) be superseded by the text that says grafts are not magic items and are unaffected by antimagic fields (specific rule), so the gaze would be an extraordinary ability, not a supernatural ability? Or, even if that's not the case, the text is still quite clear that grafts are not magic items (I quote: "Grafts are not magic items."), so even if the gaze attack is supernatural, it would still be created by a nonmagical item.


I would try to look at things thusly:

An argument which suggests grafts might not be magical items also suggests that there exists a world wherein a piece of monster carcass sewn onto your flesh that grants you a superpower is not considered by that world's inhabitants to be a magical item.

I might have argued the same thing, except that there is text that says very explicitly that grafts do not count as magic items, do not radiate magic, do not have a caster level, do not turn off in an antimagic field, are extraordinary (not supernatural) in nature, and so on.