Half-Orc vs Goliath

[Grimslade5]

The races share the stat bonuses, but from the other things each get I feel the Half-Orc is better mechanically. However, I like the Goliath very much from a RP stand point largely due to not having the outcast/Orc rape stigma.

What are other people's thoughts on the races?

[JNAProductions]

Orcs and humans (or whoever) can find love too.

Mechanically, though, yeah. Half-Orc would be my preference too.

[Rowan Wolf]

Orcs and humans (or whoever) can find love too.

Mechanically, though, yeah. Half-Orc would be my preference too.

Death by snu snu, it was always how he wanted to go.

[Tenmujiin]

Hey, humans will breed with anything, just saying (cough mul cough, who in their right mind would bed a dwarf...honestly). Along with dragons they are the most 'diverse' race when it comes to 'finding love'.


As for the half-orc vs goliath. Goliaths are much better defensively and effectively have an extra d12 hit die. Orcs are much more offensively minded. Wizards got the comparative flavor of the two races about right though I probably would have gone 2 con 1 strength on goliaths personally (no other race has those stats i think, mountain dwarves get +2, +2).

[themaque]

Hey, humans will breed with anything, just saying (cough mul cough, who in their right mind would bed a dwarf...honestly). Along with dragons they are the most 'diverse' race when it comes to 'finding love'.


You think Humans are bad? Check out the 3.5 green ronin book Bastards & Bloodlines: A Guidebook to Half-Breeds. A book dedicated to half breeds. Half-dwarf Half bulete. Weird stuff. almost all experiments from wizards or whatnot. But the elves, things like Half-Unicorns. It went out of it's way almost to say all the elf half breeds where from love.

As far as the races go, I'm really looking forward to seeing my friend resurrect his old Goliath warrior. They just inspire me a little more.

[Spacehamster]

Hey, humans will breed with anything, just saying (cough mul cough, who in their right mind would bed a dwarf...honestly). Along with dragons they are the most 'diverse' race when it comes to 'finding love'.


As for the half-orc vs goliath. Goliaths are much better defensively and effectively have an extra d12 hit die. Orcs are much more offensively minded. Wizards got the comparative flavor of the two races about right though I probably would have gone 2 con 1 strength on goliaths personally (no other race has those stats i think, mountain dwarves get +2, +2).

Earth Genesai has +2 CON +1 STR. :) Plus Goliath should not be weaker compared to a half-orc, traditionally they should be stronger even but know
they wont go over +2 on any stat in this edition so +2STR is right as it is I would say. :)

[Gwendol]

Powerful build got watered down too much in my opinion.

[BigONotation]

They need one more mechanical benefit. +3 Str would be fine with me or perhaps their weapons are slightly larger and do slightly more damage.

[Giant2005]

I think those that favour the Half-Orc are serverely underestimating how powerful being able to lift twice as much as normal is (Even more-so if you are a Barbarian that can double that amount once again).
Not only does it have significant utility uses but in combat, the simple effect of picking up something heavy and gently placing it on your enemy will win virtually any battle regardless of whether it kills the target or not. Half-Orcs just don't bring enough to the table to compete with that.

[Gwendol]

Powerful build used to be that the Goliath would count as a size larger whenever it was a benefit to the PC. Even in 5e there are situations when that would be useful (grappling, for example). To limit that to carry capacity is a little too restrictive and waters down the race.

[Giant2005]

Powerful build used to be that the Goliath would count as a size larger whenever it was a benefit to the PC. Even in 5e there are situations when that would be useful (grappling, for example). To limit that to carry capacity is a little too restrictive and waters down the race.

Goliath being less than they used to be doesn't mean they aren't powerful now.

[drrockso20]

so I haven't been keeping very good track of 5e since I got my copy of the DMG a couple months ago(outside of downloading the little Eberron pdf), where are Goliaths going to be published as a race, is this something that's going to be in that Elemental Evil supplement?

[Giant2005]

so I haven't been keeping very good track of 5e since I got my copy of the DMG a couple months ago(outside of downloading the little Eberron pdf), where are Goliaths going to be published as a race, is this something that's going to be in that Elemental Evil supplement?

Yes it was in the Elemental Evil supplement.

[Gwendol]

Goliath being less than they used to be doesn't mean they aren't powerful now.

It has less to do with power and more to give them something interesting. Right now mountain dwarf looks more powerful, and it doesn't have to be that way.

[drrockso20]

Yes it was in the Elemental Evil supplement.

didn't know that was out already, good to know

[holygroundj]

Honestly, The only real (imo) mechanical advantages are dark vision and brutal crit. While these are actually quite powerful, Sometimes it's the RP flavor that pushes me over the edge. I'm not sure I would play a half orc, but I'm actually switching to a Goliath Barbarian in my current game (from a human cleric of all things).

Goliaths are my favorite race, and I don't even know why.

[DireSickFish]

Brutal Crit and there ability to survive at 1hp aren't even guaranteed to show up or be useful every session. In contrast the Goliath effectively will always have 1d12+Con mod more hit points every rest. The fact that the player can activate it makes itmuch more reliable. I've seen the 1hp thing screw over players before, you are at the perfect amount of hit-points to be killed by overwhelming damage. This is most prevalent at low levels when an unlucky crit against you could do all of your hp.

I don't really know the weight carrying rules so I'd have to look up how much powerful build is getting you in the 16-20str range that they'l normally be played at.

[Gwendol]

The 1d12+CON mod HP are great early on, but I imagine the usefulness tapers off approximately following the 6+CON/Total HP formula.

Simply giving them the ability to grapple huge creatures would be cool compared with an increased carrying capacity.

[Giant2005]

I don't really know the weight carrying rules so I'd have to look up how much powerful build is getting you in the 16-20str range that they'l normally be played at.
You can carry your PS*15 lbs and lift twice that. A Goliath can lift/carry double that amount and a Barbarian can double both of those amounts once again.
With 20 Str, a Goliath Barbarian can carry 1200 lbs and lift 2400.
A Fighter of any other race with 20 Str can carry 300 lbs and lift 600.
The Goliath could easily carry around an anvil heavy enough that if he places it on an enemy of medium size or smaller, they can't hope to lift it regardless of how strong they think they are.


I don't understand what people think a Half-Orc brings to the table that competes with that? If it is a case of vastly overrating Brutal Critical, I can dispel those illusions right now. Even with a 1D12 weapon (Which has the greatest percentage increase of damage from Brutal Critical), the damage increase is so miniscule it isn't even worth considering. An increase of 2D12+5 (Average 18 damage) to 3D12+5 (Average 24.5 damage) is only a 36% damage increase that procs 5% of the time. That is an average damage increase of 1.8%. That number is far too small to be worthy of sacrificing so much for.

[M Placeholder]

I like the Goliath Fluff and the look of the Goliath, but I have a hard time forgiving them for replacing the Half-Giant in the 4th edition Dark Sun setting. Ive got other that now, and they are a worthy race, and very good stat wise for playing barbarians. I would like to one day play a Goliath Skald in Eberron or Greyhawk.

Just keep them off Athas, please (Along with the Dragonborn, Tieflings and Eladrin).

[Gwendol]

You can carry your PS*15 lbs and lift twice that. A Goliath can lift/carry double that amount and a Barbarian can double both of those amounts once again.
With 20 Str, a Goliath Barbarian can carry 1200 lbs and lift 2400.
A Fighter of any other race with 20 Str can carry 300 lbs and lift 600.
The Goliath could easily carry around an anvil heavy enough that if he places it on an enemy of medium size or smaller, they can't hope to lift it regardless of how strong they think they are.


I don't understand what people think a Half-Orc brings to the table that competes with that? If it is a case of vastly overrating Brutal Critical, I can dispel those illusions right now. Even with a 1D12 weapon (Which has the greatest percentage increase of damage from Brutal Critical), the damage increase is so miniscule it isn't even worth considering. An increase of 2D12+5 (Average 18 damage) to 3D12+5 (Average 24.5 damage) is only a 36% damage increase that procs 5% of the time. That is an average damage increase of 1.8%. That number is far too small to be worthy of sacrificing so much for.

You can go crit fishing also in 5e, and for those the half-orc will work out well. Brutal critical is always on after all. Relentless looks weaker than Stone's Endurance, but has a more predictable outcome. The difference in recharge rate tilts the balance in the goliath's direction.

I don't see where you are going with the idea that anvils can be placed on foes easily? Unless the target is immobilized in some way it should always be able to step out of the way.

[DireSickFish]

You can go crit fishing also in 5e, and for those the half-orc will work out well. Brutal critical is always on after all. Relentless looks weaker than Stone's Endurance, but has a more predictable outcome. The difference in recharge rate tilts the balance in the goliath's direction.

I don't see where you are going with the idea that anvils can be placed on foes easily? Unless the target is immobilized in some way it should always be able to step out of the way.

Perhaps some sort of super-strong glue is involved.

[Giant2005]

You can go crit fishing also in 5e, and for those the half-orc will work out well. Brutal critical is always on after all.
Yes Half-Orcs are far better suited to being Assassins than Goliath are. Although I'm not sure that Half-Orcs make a better Champion - lowbie Champions have an increased dps of 3.6% by being a Half Orc and high level Champions 5.4%. The latter might be worth it in the end but even that is debatable. What is less debatable is whether or not it is still considered worth it when you have to endure playing as a less capable character for so many levels before it finally starts paying dividends.

Relentless looks weaker than Stone's Endurance, but has a more predictable outcome. The difference in recharge rate tilts the balance in the goliath's direction.
Relentless is far inferior to Stone's Endurance. With 3 short rests per day, Stone's Endurance is the equivalent of an extra 3D12+conmod*3 HP per day. With a Con of 16, that is an average of of 28.5 which is more of a difference than 9 levels of Barbarian vs 9 levels of Wizard. That is an incredible difference in survival rate.
Relentless on the other hand can possibly protect you from being knocked unconscious once per day but at the expense of almost certainly dying on the next hit. Personally I would much rather be knocked unconscious one turn and take my chances with death saves than stay on my feet for one extra turn and then be denied those death saves. I would quite genuinely rather have no ability at all than have Relentless.

I don't see where you are going with the idea that anvils can be placed on foes easily? Unless the target is immobilized in some way it should always be able to step out of the way.
Yes. Unless a target is somehow restrained already (in which case you wouldn't need to restrain them further), then you would have their AC to contend with. Still, I'd much rather beat their AC with an attack that guarantees victory like dropping an anvil on them than beat their AC with an average attack; one of many that would otherwise be required to drop a foe.

[Gwendol]

Huh? Not even giants can do anything other than deal bludgeoning damage with their boulders (and in the case of stone giants, knock the target prone).

Pinning an enemy under a heavy object may be feasible, but it will require the enemy to be severely restrained first.

As for relentless, I guess it depends on the build and the situation. It is certainly not without merit.

[Submortimer]

Yes. Unless a target is somehow restrained already (in which case you wouldn't need to restrain them further), then you would have their AC to contend with. Still, I'd much rather beat their AC with an attack that guarantees victory like dropping an anvil on them than beat their AC with an average attack; one of many that would otherwise be required to drop a foe.

Unfortunately, this is totally subjective and based off the DM. D&D combat is vague and not big on the simulation, so in most cases I don't see this being an available option for winning. Mechanically, I still like the idea that the Goliath's Powerful build also lets them wield weapons suited for large creatures with ease, and i'm gonna be rolling with that in my game.

Large weapon
Weapon cost x4, Damage die increases by 1 step (1d4 -> 1d6, 1d6 -> 1d8, 1d8 -> 1d10, 1d10 -> 2d6, 1d12/2d6 -> 3d6), Weapon gains the "Large" Quality.

Large - This weapon is oversized, designed to be wielded by a Large-sized creature. A small creature takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls when using a Large weapon. If a weapon has both the Large and Heavy or Two-handed properties, a medium sized creature takes a -2 to attack rolls when using that weapon, while a small creature takes a -4.

Example: Large dagger -> 1d6 Piercing, Large, Light, Finesse
Large Longsword -> 1d10 / 2d6, Large, Versatile
Large Greataxe -> 3d6, Large, Two Handed, Heavy

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Both seem like good choices for filling a similar niche. The half-orc is a bit more wily and more vicious (darkvision, social skill prof., extra crit, death resistant) whereas the goliath is the ol' dependable wilderness strong-man. I think they did a great job giving two similar races a nice flavor difference and a subtle but tangible mechanics difference.

Edit: On Stone's Endurance vs Relentless: SE absorbs d12+CON (0 to 17, likely more like 9 to 11 on average) a few times a day, and Relentless nullifies 1 to (MAX HP*2)-1 damage once a day. So theoretically Relentless could absorb a metric tonne of damage, but since it's out of the players control it's most likely to be at the lower end of the scale. Also in fights where damage approaching MAX HP*2 is being thrown around, it's probably safe to stay down than to be walking around with 1HP.
SE is the better ability I'd say, though it does eat one's reaction, which is a small mark against it.

[Unoriginal]

This thread is 3 years old.

[HolyDraconus]

This thread is 3 years old.

And in AL half-orcs are vastly superior