Blade or Blast? Help for a new 5ed player

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all. First time in the 5ed section (I am a 3.5 player myself). This september, I will be joining my first ever 5th ed game and having scanned over the PHB, its going to be a warlock build (because warlocks finally match the fluff they have been given since 3.5 as half mad world burners). But I have a problem. After checking out the few handbooks that are around (including the one on this forum), I notice no one is providing any basic builds like the older handbooks have. So I have nothing to compare and no idea what I am doing.

My two ideas at the moment are a Tiefling Blastlock, probably either Fiend for raw power, or GOO for utility, most likely pact of the tome (agree/disagree?) and a Bladelock with Pact of the Blade, probably strength with a polearm (because I love glaive duskblades and glaivelocks from 3.5, though I have seen no one mention combat reflexes for 5th yet).

The thing is, thats about all I have. I have no idea of which things I should be picking or anything and I have no way to playtest before I sit down next autumn. So can you help me with suggested builds, feats and cantrips and stuff, little tips or full characters, anything would be great. Thanks.

[xyianth]

First things first, there isn't anything analogous to combat reflexes in 5e. No character gets more than 1 reaction per round.

Well, first question to ask is "can you multiclass?" Why? because bladelock is MUCH easier to pull off by multiclassing than being a straight warlock. If you can multiclass, there are several ways to pull off the bladelock effectively. Here are three very different bladelock builds, there are undoubtedly other possible builds as well.

Basic strength polearm build: fighter 1/warlock 19; grab polearm master, sentinel, and great weapon master feats; max your strength; use plate mail + glaive/halberd; necessary invocations: thirsting blade, lifedrinker, devil's sight; necessary spells: hex, armor of agathys, darkness, counterspell, mirror image, misty step; choose the great weapon fighting style.
This is a straightforward bladelock build. You can choose any cantrips you like. (eldritch blast is a good ranged option to have as backup) Your stat priority is: str>con/cha>wis/dex>int. I recommend variant human so you can start with polearm master at level 1. Fiend patron is best, the temp hp is really useful to front-liners.
Evil optimized charisma staff build: paladin 1/warlock 5/paladin +11/fighter 3; grab polearm master and warcaster feats; max your charisma; use plate mail, a shield, and a quarterstaff; necessary invocations: agonizing blast, devil's sight, book of ancient secrets; necessary spells: hex, armor of agathys, fireball, blindness/deafness; choose the dueling fighting style; necessary cantrips: eldritch blast, shillelagh, vicious mockery, guidance; paladin oath: oathbreaker; tome pact; fiend patron.
This is a evil paladin that uses a supercharged quarterstaff that deals 1d8(shillelagh)+1d8(improved divine smite)+2(dueling)+5(shillelagh: cha)+5(aura of hate: cha) per hit, while running around with a 20 AC. On top of this, you can smite, you have the mighty paladin auras/immunities, you have 3rd level ritual spells from all classes, and you can control undead and cast animate dead using slots that refresh on a short rest. If you want a less evil version, vengeance paladin will work too. Your stat priority is: cha>str/con>wis/dex>int. Again, variant human is recommended for polearm master at level 1.
Hit-and-run dex based build: sorcerer 1/rogue 2/warlock 17; grab the mobile feat; max your dex; use a rapier and no armor; necessary invocations: thirsting blade, lifedrinker, devil's sight; necessary spells: hex, armor of agathys, darkness, counterspell, mirror image; take expertise in stealth; learn the shield spell and the ray of frost and shocking grasp cantrips as a sorcerer; choose a dragon sorcerer for the free permanent mage armor. This build specializes in high mobility, stealth, and kiting strategies. You can choose any race, but wild elf is great for the speed boost. Stick with fiend patron for the temp hp. Your stat priority is: dex>con/cha>wis>str/int.

As for the blastlock: sorcerer 1/warlock 19 is hard to beat. Grab the shocking grasp cantrip as a sorcerer and choose dragon sorcerer for the mage armor. Tome pact is the most effective option. Your patron choice is up to you, but be warned: great old one is, by far, the weakest RAW. Warcaster is pretty great as far as feats go. Make sure to grab the agonizing blast, repelling blast, and book of ancient secrets invocations. Your stat priority is: cha>con/dex>wis>str/int. You can choose any race, but half-elf and variant human are hard to beat.

The various guides online describe some good tactics for the warlock. Some of my favorites are:

Darkness + devil's sight = advantage on attacks + disadvantage for attackers
Learn find familiar via the book of ancient secrets and summon owl familiars = owls can fly down, take the help action to grant you advantage, then fly up without provoking an OA
Polearm master + sentinel + reach weapon(glaive/halberd) = OA when an enemy gets within 10' that sets their movement speed to 0'
Divine smite + pact magic = divine smites that recharge on a short rest
Mask of many faces + friends cantrip = consequence free at-will charm person
Minor illusion/misty visions = create walls/fog clouds that you automatically see through, teach teammates a codeword to let them see through it too.

[Mandragola]

The blastlock with a tome is highly effective and kind of writes itself to be honest. Have a high charisma, take agonising blast at 2nd and you can't really go far wrong. Main thing is to stick hex on something and zap away till it falls over.

I think a variant human with spell sniper at level 1 might be the best way to do this. You get a precious extra cantrip (you use the feat to take eldritch blast) and don't have to worry about range or cover ever. Humans have a disadvantage normally with vision but warlocks tend to want the excellent devil's sight.

Patron choice, and even whether you go blade, chain or tome don't really affect how good you are as a blaster. Fiend is the most straightforwardly powerful I'd say, with temp hp, searing Ray and fireball all doing great damage. Book Is excellent.

If you want to go with a blade then there are really two ways to approach it. One is to play a blaster with your blade as a backup for when you get closed down and the other is to actually try and build a melee character. That's harder to do.

If you want your blade as a backup, then go with dex. You'll have a more or less ok AC and often temp hp from fiend patron. Your blade will never really be better than your blast but it won't be too far behind, so the party is not over if you get closed down. Your blast will be just as good as any other warlock's so there's no real loss there - but you're missing out on the potential flexibility you'd get from having the book or familiar instead. Note there are some cool options like taking the moderately-armoured feat that could help a bit, but which are optional really and not required.

A strength build is harder because of AC. You do need it in melee, so you need either great dex or heavy armour. So for a lot of people the best way to achieve that is with a level in fighter to start with. That also makes you proficient with con saves, which helps with concentration. A fighting style and second wind are great to have too, but going beyond 1st level probably isn't a good idea as it delays your 2nd attack etc.

A note of caution on polearm master. You'll often be using your bonus action to move hex around, so you might have to make annoying choices on whether to do that or have your 2nd attack. It's great when you get to have two attacks which both get hex added but that won't happen in the majority of rounds. My experience of Rangers and warlocks is that both have to move hex/hunter's Mark most turns, which seriously hampers dual-wield type stuff.

The other problem is that strength-based warlocks don't really have a lot of advantages over single-class fighters and Paladins. They have eldritch blast of course, but it's so good it's almost s problem. You'll find yourself wondering why you are bothering to put so much effort into melee when you could just be blasting things. It's a lot of hassle just so you can be not quite as good as a paladin or fighter at hitting stuff.

In actual gameplay I think a dex-based blade pact warlock who prioritises blasting might be the most fun. Blasting basically gets a bit boring if that's all you ever do and spell sniper, while excellent, removes any need even to care where you stand relative to the monster (other than "as far away as I can"). If you can start with cha and dex both at 16, then cap cha first as you level, you're never behind the curve on blasting but also get a good AC, initiative and the option of sneaking around - on top of your respectable blade skills. I've played in games with a halfling blade pact warlock who went for this route and she's really cool. The variant human tomelock blaster got boring pretty fast since his action every single turn was to cast hex and EB.

[Myzz]

I'll add for Blast Lock if you can multi Class, Trickster Cleric can be quite good. Invoke Duplicity is amazing... and if you take a little stealth and only wear medium armor you could probably pull off lots of Shenanigans. With DM permission you could even have your Deity be an ArchFey to help with any of those issues that might crop up!

Dependent on what level ranges you are likely to play at... I think Trickster Cleric 6 / Archfey TomeLock X, would be very fun to play... Although you are slightly MAD: Charisma (min 13, main stat for EB), Wisdom (min 13, cleric spell DC's), Dex (want 14 for AC and stealth), Con (to stay alive).

Level 6 Cleric, for 2 Channel Divinity per short rest (Invoke Duplicity).

btw Invoke Duplicity as far as I know is the only way to cast spells through your Illusions, having them originate from the Illusion!

this is actually the next character I'm gonna play in our HoTDQ game. Just had a TPK, so starting where the other characters left off... I chose a lightfoot halfling, for bonus stealth behind Medium creatures shenanigans... My ArchFey Deity is Squelaiche, the Leprechaun Deity of Trickery and Illusions =) <assuming the DM doesn't let me play a Homebrew Celestial Warlock>

[Oscredwin]

I want to cast a vote against Variant Human. It can be stronger at early levels (with polearm master or spell sniper) but at some point you're planning on bumping CHA (likely level 4 or 8), after that point the Half-Elf version of the same character is better (same feats/stat boosts, same bonus prof, but all the other Half-Elf goodies).

[Mandragola]

I want to cast a vote against Variant Human. It can be stronger at early levels (with polearm master or spell sniper) but at some point you're planning on bumping CHA (likely level 4 or 8), after that point the Half-Elf version of the same character is better (same feats/stat boosts, same bonus prof, but all the other Half-Elf goodies).

Half-elves are very good for warlocks, certainly. I think that the advantage for a variant human is in having a character that works right from the start at full effect. If you want to play polearm mastery you certainly don't want to wait till level 12 before your charisma is capped and you can spend an ASI on a feat. Variant human means playing levels 1-11 with that feat.

You can certainly argue that a half-elf is a bit better at level 20 than a variant human. But it's not a huge difference. It's less of a difference for warlocks, due to devil's sight duplicating darkvision.

[Strill]

I highly recommend Pact of the Tome. Eldritch Blast is better than Pact of the Blade in every way except that you get disadvantage if an enemy is in melee range. Pact of the Tome can solve that - take Find Familiar as one of your spells, and have your familiar use the Help action to give you advantage whenever you need to hit an adjacent enemy. Take Repelling Blast, and your first hit will knock him 10 ft. away, keeping you safe.

[Galen]

Pact of the Tome only grants you Cantrips, which Find Familiar is not.

[Strill]

Pact of the Tome only grants you Cantrips, which Find Familiar is not.

Book of Ancient Secrets. Honestly, why else would you be choosing Tome Pact anyway?

[TheOOB]

Look at what your party is playing. Pact of the Tome is great is you have no other good arcane caster. Pact of the Chain is AMAZING if you have no good stealther. Going blast or blade is often a choice that depends on if your party needs more melee or ranged.

[Kerleth]

I've been working on an idea for warlock(blade pact) barbarian. A savage warrior who makes a pact with a spirit spoken of in tribal legends. The gist of the mechanical part is this. Barbarian rage + Armor of Agathys means that you get temporary hp up to twice per short rest (at warlock levels 3-10), and each one of those points of hp requires 2 points of damage to remove while you are raging. Whenever an enemy hits you with a melee attack and you have at least one of that temporary hp left, you deal cold damage to them. (Exact numbers dependent on the level that armor of agathys is cast at). When not raging you can use the armor to help buttress your hp. You can't cast spells while raging, but you can focus your spell selection on things that you want to do while not raging. Eldritch blast + Agonizing Blast makes a great option for combats against flying opponents, as an example. Versatility is a good thing. Also, taking barbarian at 1st level gave you medium armor and shield proficiency AND martial weapon proficiency, so that you can play a warlock warrior sooner than going straight warlock. There's also some other synergies, like at high levels being able to Rage+Frenzy and gain your strength, charisma, and rage bonus to the damage of 3 attacks a turn. Great for an all in, we have to kill this guy sort of fight.

[Albions_Angel]

Thanks for all the help, guys. New to this so lots of questions.

First up, looks like I am going Blastlock. Bladelock just isnt as good as I thought it was and Id rather focus. The RP value is better than fights being entertaining for me (currently a guisarm duskblade in 3.5 and I am enjoying fights despite all of them being "Move with in 10 feet, channel shocking grasp, smack for stupid damage, rinse, repeat") so doing the same thing over and over isnt an issue, and may even be a benefit.


As for the blastlock: sorcerer 1/warlock 19

Why? As a warlock 1 I can still take shocking grasp and the dragon variant still leaves me with one less HP than max warlock 1. Seems like a waste, but I may just not be getting it.


You get a precious extra cantrip (you use the feat to take eldritch blast)

There is a feat that lets you get eldritch blast instead of taking it as a cantrip? I am new to 5th ed and havnt seen that, can you point me to it? Also, you dont get a regular feat at level 1 now, so how am I supposed to get both that, and spell sniper? Or have I read the emphasis wrong and you are saying use the extra cantrip provided by spell sniper to take eldritch blast?


snip

Not happening I am afraid. party starts at lvl 1, unlikely to see much past 7th. I am not spending all my time as a cleric when I am playing a warlock. Not that you were to know that, thanks for the tips.

As for the race discussion, probably go with Half-Elf given that our DM just told me he may not be allowing feats at all. Not one of you mentioned Tiefling, not even to say dont take it. Seems like its built for warlocks to me. Any thoughts?

[xyianth]

Why? As a warlock 1 I can still take shocking grasp and the dragon variant still leaves me with one less HP than max warlock 1. Seems like a waste, but I may just not be getting it.

Warlocks have their own spell list, which does not include shocking grasp. Shocking grasp is recommended because you can use it in melee without disadvantage and it prevents reactions, which allows you to walk away without provoking an OA.

There are six main reasons to take sorcerer as your first level:

Sorcerers get Constitution save proficiency, which affects your concentration checks (concentration is no longer a skill you pump as a caster, so bonuses to it are valuable)
Dragon sorcerers get permanent mage armor that cannot be dispelled (this is better than one of the warlock's possible invocations and you get it free)
Sorcerers start with 4 cantrips, allowing you to take and use a lot more utility cantrips (sorcerer 1/tome warlock 4 knows 10 cantrips; compared to the 6 of a tome warlock 5)
The sorcerer spell list contains better first level spells (my recommendation for spells as a sorcerer is shield and sleep; you can cast these from pact magic slots as well)
Starting as a sorcerer gives you 2 daily first level spell slots (think of this as a reserve for when you are out of pact magic slots but need to cast hex, shield, sleep, etc...)
Because dragon sorcerers get +1 hp, you only lose out on 1 max hp at level 1


There is a feat that lets you get eldritch blast instead of taking it as a cantrip? I am new to 5th ed and havnt seen that, can you point me to it? Also, you dont get a regular feat at level 1 now, so how am I supposed to get both that, and spell sniper? Or have I read the emphasis wrong and you are saying use the extra cantrip provided by spell sniper to take eldritch blast?

The spell sniper feat lets you pick a cantrip from any class spell list and learn it as one of its benefits. The only way to get a feat at 1st level is to be a human(variant) and select it as your racial feat.


As for the race discussion, probably go with Half-Elf given that our DM just told me he may not be allowing feats at all. Not one of you mentioned Tiefling, not even to say dont take it. Seems like its built for warlocks to me. Any thoughts?

Well, if feats are off the table, variant humans are too. In that case, the 'best' warlock race is probably the half-elf. (they are seriously amazing in 5e) Tiefling isn't a bad choice, but their int bonus goes to waste as a warlock, and most of their racial abilities are easily duplicated by warlock spells and invocations. Their best feature is fire resistance. (which fiend patron warlocks can get at 10th level) You can certainly play an effective tiefling warlock though, so if that is what you want, go for it. 5e is pretty good about balance, (way better than 3.5) you don't have to optimize every aspect of your character to be effective.

[Person_Man]

My suggestions:

I personally wouldn't multi-classing for your first character. Its not needed in 5E, strait Warlocks play fine as-is, and a strait Warlock is one of the most powerful builds at mid levels due to the way their Pact Magic scales.

Race: I suggest Half-Elf. It gets the best ability score bonuses for a Warlock, and its racial abilities will most frequently get used. Tiefling, Variant Human, Aasimar, and Aarakocra (Elemental Evil supplement) are also respectable choices.

Pact of Blade is probably best if you don't have other front line warriors in your party and you're likely to find a magical weapon in your treasure. Pact of Tome is probably best if you don't have other full casters in your party and are likely to find a lot of ritual spells in your treasure. Pact of Chain is best if you don't have another scout/sneak in your party, is generally my preferred option, since in addition to being an amazing scout, your Invisible Familiar is can Help on its own action to give you Advantage to most kinds of rolls once per turn.

Great Old One is my preferred Patron for Telepathy and my preferred spells added. But they're all respectable choices.

[holygroundj]

So let's talk about my character, Silver. She's a variant human 4/4 Bladepact GoO warlock/Tempest Cleric. Cleric 1st level, 4 levels of warlock, 3 levels of cleric.

This only works if you go RAI that invocations are based on "character" level not class level. Technically RAW, but RAI seems to go against this. I don't mean to make a debate of this, but simply why my character works at my table and not at others. This is not as focused as a 1/x fighter warlock, but there are reasons for that.

14 st, 10 dex, 12 con, 8 int, 16 wis, 16 cha. Warcaster and Polearm Master. +2 wis for 2nd ASI. +1 Glaive found at level 5.

So, Silver can:

Heal well.
Do 1d10+3 twice with the glaive, then 1d4+3 on a bonus action.
do 1d10+3 twice with eldritch blast.
Has adv on conc checks (hex).

etc, etc.


So while at this point a fighter/warlock or a straight warlock can dish out slightly more damage, I have a range that is pretty awesome. Due to RP reasons, I'll probably end up going 4/16 warlock.

[Myzz]

Not happening I am afraid. party starts at lvl 1, unlikely to see much past 7th. I am not spending all my time as a cleric when I am playing a warlock. Not that you were to know that, thanks for the tips.

As for the race discussion, probably go with Half-Elf given that our DM just told me he may not be allowing feats at all. Not one of you mentioned Tiefling, not even to say dont take it. Seems like its built for warlocks to me. Any thoughts?

Yeah... Blastlock IMO if your NOT going past 7th... and Half Elf is the Good Go To Option... I'd personally take Tiefling over Half Elf for RP and fun reasons...

I'd also stay straight Warlock, at that point too... For casting versatility I always prefer Tome. If you want to start with an awesome Familiar then chain might be better... To me though the few things it offers at those lower levels are not worth it to me... You can get (reg) Familiar at level 3 with tome, and a nice DM might even let you grab an Imp if your Fiend, or Pseudodragon if your Fey, etc...

Invisible Familiar giving Help advantage... I'd not allow an invisible familiar to give help. The purpose of the familiar giving you advantage is that its becoming a threat source to your target, even if its not really attacking its assumed to be making a feint of some sort (mostly so it won't die). If the familiar is invisible, then its not threatening the target, which means you don't get advantage...

[Yagyujubei]

theres a cheesy "thorns" build that takes advantage of armor of shadows/armor of agathys and arcane ward from. abjuration wizard that works pretty well with glaivelock but that is more of a wizard build than a warlock build..

anyway glaivelock is pretty straight forward. grab polearm master, a level or two into fighter for heavy armor (first level for con proficiency) and action surge, armor of agathys and flameshield from fiendpact. and i like crowd controlly spells to compliment.