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hewhosaysfish
2007-04-10, 11:10 AM
Just reading the "AfterLife of the Stick" thread on OoTS board got me thinking about how stupidly the afterlife has been handled in every D&D setting that I know of.

The Lower Planes are horrible places. If you don't think about it, it makes sense: demons and devils live there, evil people go there whan they die, they are the hells of D&D. Only they're not Hell, in the Christian/Jewish/Muslim sense of the term. Real world religions conceptualise Hell as a prison, a banishment, an exile and a punishment, the place where The Guy In Charge sends his enemies; in D&D pantheons there is no single guy in charge, the gods are roughly equal and the Lower Planes are not the dumping grounds of the Upper Planes but effectively seperate countries with their own rulers, citizens and borders, warring and cold-warring with eachother and their celestial counterparts.

So why are the filled with lakes of fire, seas of biting insects, soul-sapping grey wastes and other such unattractive afterlives? You could suggest that this is a reflection of the inherently evil nature of the planes: that brimstone and scorpions grew out of the pure rage and spite that the plane embodies, just as the Elemental Plane of fire is full of fire for no more reason that, duh, it's the Elemental Plane of Fire.
But these planes are all divinely morphic. The Evil gods can reshape them as they see fit! They must like it this way... but surely the whole point of evil is making things better for yourself at the cost of making things worse for others. Sitting in a cesspit and throwing stones at the Good guys as they sun themselves in the glades of Bytopia and Arborea isn't quite the same...

Why would anyone but the insanely short-sighted serve an evil god when that is the retirement plan? Wouldn't they be better served to forswear all evil and spend their afterlife on the gravy-train? Even if the Good gods turn away those who do good for selfish reasons, surely they could turn to a neutral deity and get into the Outlands?
Unless you plan to become immortal, Evil is dumb. And when the afterlife provably exists, good afterlives as well as bad, living forever seems pointless especially if you have to risk going to Hell to achieve it.

Under the accepted cosmologies, shouldn't fiends be out-numbered 10-1 by celestials (and all have -8 Int)?

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 11:16 AM
This has come up a few times, and is a good question. My take on it (and I think there's some backup in the planar books) is that the people who actively serve evil gods (or demon princes, etc) don't end up in the lake of fire and fry, as it were. Rather they become some sort of lesser/greater demon or devil, depending on their power and how useful they were in life. Also, many evil GODS, as opposed to devils/demons, have their own little sub-planes where their followers may be properly rewarded with evil power. On the other hand, the hells DO serve as punishment for evil souls, but that gets reserved for the generally-evil. The corrupt backstabbing vizier? Consigned to eternal flame. The High Priest of Demogorgon? Probably ends up as a Vrock or something.

Morty
2007-04-10, 11:23 AM
It's problematic, actually; in Forgotten Tealms, for example, where gods manifest themselves on a daily basis, how many people would actually dare to be evil knowing that there is hell where they're going to go after death?

Person_Man
2007-04-10, 11:25 AM
Evil people assume they will be in charge or otherwise in a position of power. 1,000 succubus (succubi? succubusses?) to pleasure them every night, 10,000 peons to serve act out their will. 100,000 gp for every Paladin they killed for their dark master. Etc.

But Evil is Evil, and they screw over people when they die, and then laugh at them. And the Evil wizards who are smart enough to figure this out then make the mistake of assuming that since they're smart enough to know how things really work, then they're smart enough to somehow game the system when they die, or they become an immortal Lich because they fear the ramifications of an Evil death.

The Vorpal Tribble
2007-04-10, 11:29 AM
There are a great many people who would do anything for power, wealth and the like. Even if it meant torture later. This is also assuming they believe in a hell or think they that it will be that bad. Many 'live for the moment'.

I mean, alot are not willing to lead a decent life, they are too selfish or nasty or whatnot. So they wouldn't be going to the heavens, and possibly wouldn't want to, so they probably think they might as well live good beforehand, and so they make a deal with evil.

But really, desperation or greed, and/or stupidity are all viable possibilities.


I can only comprehend this attitude in the abstract however.

Also, as person man says, the hells are all about lies and deciet. The demons/devils will tell you ANYTHING to bring you over to their side and corrupt you.

hewhosaysfish
2007-04-10, 11:34 AM
Also, many evil GODS, as opposed to devils/demons, have their own little sub-planes where their followers may be properly rewarded with evil power.

Ok, I think I see. The fire and brimstone are just the bit the general public see; there's another couple of rooms 'backstage' where they keep their palaces made of gold and their slave-concubines kidnapped from the material plane.
These never seem to get a mention. Presumably if any source book described evil people as getting opulent rewards in the next world, then maniac shrieking "D&D promotes Satanism!" would pop out of the woodwork.

Aquillion
2007-04-10, 11:59 AM
Another possibility to consider: Many of the evil planes are horrible not by choice but because of endless conflict. The Blood War is one of the main sources of torment and horror awaiting evil creatures when they die, and it's not like any evil entity ever sat back and thought "Oh, I think I'll start an endless futile war to despoil the evil-aligned planes and suck up everyone who ends up here." Likewise, evil deities often have lesser conflicts going on that make their domains into horrible places and will become the fate of anyone unfortunate enough to end up there. They end up sculpting their planes to suit this, turning them into nasty warlike realms.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-10, 12:10 PM
Ok, I think I see. The fire and brimstone are just the bit the general public see; there's another couple of rooms 'backstage' where they keep their palaces made of gold and their slave-concubines kidnapped from the material plane.
These never seem to get a mention. Presumably if any source book described evil people as getting opulent rewards in the next world, then maniac shrieking "D&D promotes Satanism!" would pop out of the woodwork.Heheh, good point.

But also, even the evil gods are EVIL. I know there's an explicit description in one of the Fiendish Codices (II, with the devils, I think) of a "pleasure garden" where you starve to death because the food/drink/women are illusory. So the rewards might, as others have said, be illusory.

It might also be a case where only the very few, top-of-the-line evil guys really get much. Similar to some organized drug gangs, where the low-level "soldiers" are willing to put up with their small cuts, chance of being shot or arrested, and the fact that they're contributing to destroying lives, all in the hopes of making it to the level of a big-shot eventually. And of course the head devils would not disabuse them of this notion...

I also really like the idea of "things would be great here if not for the Blood War." Maybe not as the reality of how things are, but definitely as a propaganda device for the princes.

Lapak
2007-04-10, 12:14 PM
Evil people assume they will be in charge or otherwise in a position of power. 1,000 succubus (succubi? succubusses?) to pleasure them every night, 10,000 peons to serve act out their will. 100,000 gp for every Paladin they killed for their dark master. Etc.

But Evil is Evil, and they screw over people when they die, and then laugh at them. And the Evil wizards who are smart enough to figure this out then make the mistake of assuming that since they're smart enough to know how things really work, then they're smart enough to somehow game the system when they die, or they become an immortal Lich because they fear the ramifications of an Evil death.This is the right answer, I'm pretty sure. They assume that they will get their reward of power after death, not thinking about the fact that the lower planes are even more of a dog-eat-dog world than the Prime.

Heck, in the Lower Planes you might reasonably think that you could topple one of the Princes of Hell and rule forever in his stead, whereas the upper planes tend to frown on overthrowing the boss. Now, pretty much no one actually has a shot at that, but a lot of the committed Evil folks probably think they could outsmart the devil if it came down to it.

Then they end up as the lowest demons in the ranks of the Blood War, or as paving stones in the palace of death.

Matthew
2007-04-10, 05:07 PM
Yeah, I think Spider Brigade and company have the answer right there. It's also worth considering that it is quite hard to be a faithful follower of a Deity or be true to an Alignment. A lot of afterlives are probably not that great.

Indon
2007-04-10, 05:30 PM
I also really like the idea of "things would be great here if not for the Blood War." Maybe not as the reality of how things are, but definitely as a propaganda device for the princes.

"Things would be great here if not for the gods not running this plane. I mean, we run this place superbly, really, everyone else just screws it up!"

But in any case, I see Hell populated not only with just short-sightedness (Sure, I'll get years of prison if I get caught, but murder is so fun!), but self-deception (Well, yeah, I serve the Hell Lord Xagoth, but I'm his favorite, he said I won't be tossed in the lake of fire even if it wasn't specified in the contract, and he's trustworthy!) as well.

Matthew
2007-04-10, 05:36 PM
I also highly doubt that Devils, Demons and other Evil Powers tell their followers the truth about what awaits in the afterlife... once they find out, it is likely too late.

ocato
2007-04-10, 05:37 PM
Well, you also have to consider the fact that evil gods are probably, at least on some level, sadists. So you die and they get to play with you, get you good and hatefilled, then they use said hate to build you into a real monster.

Edo
2007-04-10, 06:38 PM
So why are the filled with lakes of fire, seas of biting insects, soul-sapping grey wastes and other such unattractive afterlives?Don't look at me. They came that way.


You could suggest that this is a reflection of the inherently evil nature of the planes... But these planes are all divinely morphic. The Evil gods can reshape them as they see fit!Why should they?


Why would anyone but the insanely short-sighted serve an evil god when that is the retirement plan?Lakes of fire aren't the "retirement plan." They're the severance plan for the mediocre laid-off employees.

If you're hardcore enough to approach a devil for contract negotiation, and you're capable enough to be worth their time, then by definition you should be smart enough to have planned out your full medical and dental insurance, your product endorsements, and your 401k plan. If you're not, then you deserve to get screwed.

Krellen
2007-04-10, 06:54 PM
The latest issue of Dragon talks about Malcanthet, Queen of Succubi. Her realm, one of the layers of the Abyss, is not a hellscape, but rather a pastoral playground of idle sin, sensuality and perversion. While this is not the norm for descriptions of Abyssal layers, there really is nothing preventing this in any realm.

Overall, however, I think the layers of the Abyss (and the other Lower Planes, for that matter) are the way they are largely because of sadistic and cruel natures of their stewards, the various fiends. Most evil servants probably assume they'll become one of the higher-standing fiends (the ones that worry about their afterlives, anyhow), while in reality most become petitioners (those in the lakes of fire) and grunt-level fiends. It takes a lot of power and evil to be granted fiendhood. The majority of evil beings, however, likely put no thought at all into their afterlife. Evil, as detailed in D&D, tends to be more the short-sighted, instant-gratification-keyed alignment.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-10, 07:13 PM
As everyone else said, the real big evil guys, the powerful clerics of evil deities and the loyal servants get nice ranking positions in the hells, so, when the adventurers come into the lair of the Cult of Dispater and start slaughtering mook cultists, and eventually have their final showdown with the Dark High Priest, the afterlife for these guys looks like this:

First, a guy who lost initiative to the PCs and died flat-footed comes before Dispater.
D: You have failed me for the last time. Into the Lake of Fire with you!

Next, a guy who managed to get into melee with the wizard, but then died of a fatal head-bashing from the cleric:
D: You're better than the last guy. For that I will turn you into a Bearded Devil. Teleport to yonder portal; here are your orders.
BD: Thank you, mighty one! (teleports)
Imp: Let me see those orders. . . (stamps) Alright, in you go, then teleport to this place (indicates) once you're out the other side.
BD goes in the portal and teleports.
Balor: Hello! I was just killing this lemure, and luckily for you, I've got Cleave! (cleaves)
BD: This is not my lucky day.

Finally, the High Priest shows up.
D: You were the terror to millions, and have given me thousands of sacrifices and stolen hundreds of souls for me. For that I will. . .
(If feeling mean and HP didn't specify in the contract) shorten your sentence in the lake of fire to a mere thousand years.
(If feeling like rewarding minion, or trying to maintain a reputation to attract future minions, or if the contract says so) transform you into a Bone Devil. Your first job is filling out these forms and going over these specifications, then keeping the lake of fire at exactly 892.372 degrees. Oh, and make sure to stir it to spread the suffering around.

I also like the idea that part of the reason the Lower Planes suck so much is because they're a warzone. The lakes of fire aren't just for the people condemned there, they're for deserters, spies, traitors, failures, and the like, and they make mighty fine moats to block off invaders (naturally, though, you need to clear your torture lakes and relocate the prisoners elsewhere when expecting attack). Also because the planes are full of sadists, and with the evil of their denizens impressed on them so fully that they become inhospitable and sadistic themselves.

Da Beast
2007-04-10, 08:37 PM
You should look into Eberron's afterlife. Everyone goes to the same, barren plane were their memories gradually fade away untill they disappear and become part of the plane itself, sort of like Elysium or Hades.

illathid
2007-04-10, 08:42 PM
I kinda like the idea that the reasons the 9 hells look the way the do is that it is aesthetic choice made by the current ruler.

Mephistopheles: Well, I would get rid of the lake of fire... I mean, it's really impractical here in the frozen city of Mephistar. But the ambiance the light from the lake makes as it's filtered through the blood soaked ice in my palace just cant be recreated any other way.

jjpickar
2007-04-10, 10:20 PM
Didn't WotC say (in the complete divine I think) that souls in the D&D cosmology slowly become a part of the planes themselves? That would explain why the evil planes are so horrible. They're made of horrible people.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-04-11, 07:57 AM
Next, a guy who managed to get into melee with the wizard, but then died of a fatal head-bashing from the cleric:
D: You're better than the last guy. For that I will turn you into a Bearded Devil. Teleport to yonder portal; here are your orders.
BD: Thank you, mighty one! (teleports)
Imp: Let me see those orders. . . (stamps) Alright, in you go, then teleport to this place (indicates) once you're out the other side.
BD goes in the portal and teleports.
Balor: Hello! I was just killing this lemure, and luckily for you, I've got Cleave! (cleaves)
BD: This is not my lucky day.
*ahem*
Not an Imp stamping those forms. Amnizu. Literally, a Bureaucracy Devil. And, Imps aren't even Baatezu.

And on another note, Dispater is EXTREMELY paranoid. More so than those Wizards who sleep in a Rope Trick in a Magnificent Mansion in another Rope Trick in a Private Sanctum on their own personal demiplane. NO-ONE "appears before" him.

This has been an announcement by the Getyourfactsright Department of Baator. Have a Lawful Evil day.

Talanic
2007-04-11, 08:24 AM
I remember in sequel to the D&D-based trilogy about the Time of Troubles, it went into detail about the system in Myrkul's (then Cyric's) realm, the land of the dead.

The only souls that showed up there were these:
1. Those who followed Myrkul or whoever the current god of death was. They were the overseers; basically, "Welcome to hell, here's a whip, there's the ones you whip, have fun."

2. Those who had no faith in any deity. These were the slave laborers for all eternity.

3. Those who betrayed their deities in life. Faithless priests, hypocrites, et cetera. These ones wound up being used as living 'bricks' and sealed permanently into the city walls.

In that book (if I could remember its title I'd tell you) was pretty specific on how service to an evil deity had its rewards...at least, compared to its alternatives.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-11, 08:36 AM
And that's why my settings almost never have lower planes.
Traditional? Yes.
Logical? Not so much.

Some of the lower planes, like Carceri and Acheron, make slightly more sense, though.

Theodoxus
2007-04-11, 08:51 AM
Ah yes, Divine Comedy - how thou hast completely snared us in thine grasp.

So many ways to go with this...

Personally, I think it'd be more fun to have a campaign world that has no gods - not even 'sorcerer-kings'. When you die, you just cease to exist.

Ethdred
2007-04-11, 09:39 AM
It might also be a case where only the very few, top-of-the-line evil guys really get much. Similar to some organized drug gangs, where the low-level "soldiers" are willing to put up with their small cuts, chance of being shot or arrested, and the fact that they're contributing to destroying lives, all in the hopes of making it to the level of a big-shot eventually. And of course the head devils would not disabuse them of this notion...

I also really like the idea of "things would be great here if not for the Blood War." Maybe not as the reality of how things are, but definitely as a propaganda device for the princes.

Have you read 1984?

Also, I like the idea of the drugs gang analogy - there are always people who will put up with stuff in order to become the person doing the stuff to others (I could also raise the old tradition in English public schools of fagging, but the Yanks amongst you might misunderstand)

After all, in the days when people did have a pretty total belief in the reality of the afterlife, there were still plenty of people (even those who'd read Dante) doing evil things. Humankind is just very bad at weighing up future consequences against current pleasure.

Habzial
2007-04-11, 10:03 AM
... the people who actively serve evil gods (or demon princes, etc) don't end up in the lake of fire and fry, as it were. Rather they become some sort of lesser/greater demon or devil, depending on their power and how useful they were in life. Also, many evil GODS, as opposed to devils/demons, have their own little sub-planes where their followers may be properly rewarded with evil power. On the other hand, the hells DO serve as punishment for evil souls, but that gets reserved for the generally-evil. ...I love this idea. The corrupters are rewarded while the corrupted are punished. That makes sense on a lot of levels.

The corrupted are the short-sighted people who were driven by their base desires. They're not particularly useful for their minds, but they are needed and wanted. The sadists get a steady flow of new victims. The hedonists get a steady flow of new toys. Warring parties get a steady flow of new grunts. Everyone at the top of the bottom is happy just to have new souls under them.

Of course, everyone down below needs devious minds working for them. They need people to keep that flow coming, manage it, and keep things running smoothly. What evil deity is going to want to micromanage their entire plane, recruitment, and wage war on the upper planes? That's what skilled minions are for, and you don't get those without a clear punishment-reward system. Someone who has to choose between agony and delight is going to work much harder to stay in your graces than someone picking between agony and less agony.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-11, 03:19 PM
Have you read 1984?

Also, I like the idea of the drugs gang analogy - there are always people who will put up with stuff in order to become the person doing the stuff to others (I could also raise the old tradition in English public schools of fagging, but the Yanks amongst you might misunderstand)

After all, in the days when people did have a pretty total belief in the reality of the afterlife, there were still plenty of people (even those who'd read Dante) doing evil things. Humankind is just very bad at weighing up future consequences against current pleasure.Yeah, it is pretty similar to the propaganda in 1984...or other places, but we won't get into it.

That's not exactly what I meant by the analogy (that was more about deluding yourself that you'll be in charge) but your point is also valid. And don't kid yourself, we have that kind of hazing in the States as well. The newbies get various ritual punishments, or serve the older members in various menial ways, but they deal with it because later, THEY get to do it. Yeah, I can see evil people working that way.

Finally, there's a little bit of a difference between medieval religion and a D&D setting. We're talking about a world where you more than just fervently believe in devils etc...you probably know a guy who was killed by one. You also have clerics who can very observably call on divine power to heal or smite. I don't want to continue this line of reasoning too much because it could eventually get into real-world religion issues, but suffice it to say I think a D&D peasant has way more concrete reasons to fear the afterlife than a real-life medieval one.

I_Got_This_Name
2007-04-11, 04:18 PM
*ahem*
Not an Imp stamping those forms. Amnizu. Literally, a Bureaucracy Devil. And, Imps aren't even Baatezu.

And on another note, Dispater is EXTREMELY paranoid. More so than those Wizards who sleep in a Rope Trick in a Magnificent Mansion in another Rope Trick in a Private Sanctum on their own personal demiplane. NO-ONE "appears before" him.

This has been an announcement by the Getyourfactsright Department of Baator. Have a Lawful Evil day.

My mistake regarding Dispater. I hereby retcon him to have been an illusion (maybe, if the high priest was particularly loyal, a Simulacrum). That would also explain how he deals with all of the new souls in Dis personally much better anyway, so of course he had to be an illusion. I don't have access to most of the old Planescape stuff, or the Fiendish Codices, and they have a lot of stuff ahead of them on my list of what to buy.

Would there be a particular reason why the Baatezu wouldn't have imp employees/slaves?

Ethdred
2007-04-11, 10:07 PM
Yeah, it is pretty similar to the propaganda in 1984...or other places, but we won't get into it.

No, let's not :)


That's not exactly what I meant by the analogy (that was more about deluding yourself that you'll be in charge) but your point is also valid. And don't kid yourself, we have that kind of hazing in the States as well. The newbies get various ritual punishments, or serve the older members in various menial ways, but they deal with it because later, THEY get to do it. Yeah, I can see evil people working that way.

I think we are in very much argreement (and that's probably why neither of us got into the 'cool' clubs :) ) Glad there was someone who could translate the practicefrom over here to over there - I knew about hazing but hadn't made the connection - I think of hazing as being a college (18+) practice, rather than a 11+ thing


Finally, there's a little bit of a difference between medieval religion and a D&D setting. We're talking about a world where you more than just fervently believe in devils etc...you probably know a guy who was killed by one. You also have clerics who can very observably call on divine power to heal or smite. I don't want to continue this line of reasoning too much because it could eventually get into real-world religion issues, but suffice it to say I think a D&D peasant has way more concrete reasons to fear the afterlife than a real-life medieval one.

True enough - I am actually working on a theory about how (un)fervently people believed in those years (hampered by a lack of evidence to support my prejudices). I did read a good explanation (I think on these boards but maybe not) about how you could still be an atheist in D&D. The gods don't manifest so you only know them by their clerics' power and that's very similar to wizards' power so maybe this is all a delusion - the clerics think they have divine power when actually they are just a variant of sorcerors.