Need some quick Druid advice

[thecrimsondawn]

I have...*looks at time* 3 hours to make a druid for a new player for this game I am in.
He says he wants to be a human or an elf, and wants to be more melee focused
He likes the idea of casting so of course natural spell and full progression I feel would be musts in this case.

Since I lack any experience at all with Druid, and I am the one with all the source books, could I ask a few of you to lay some advice on me please? :)

I found a guide and a build online, and I was thinking of using that as a base idea to go off of.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thasar%27s_Shapechanging_Invincible_Druid_%283.5e_ Optimized_Character_Build%29

So would you guys please point me to some good options and keep me away from the bad ones please? :)

Edit
starting lv is 11 right now, and its 32 point buy 1for1, so stats are no issue. Lots of evil and undead atm, but that will change in a couple of levels provided we dont F up

[Troacctid]

What level are you? What sources are allowed? How much wealth do you have to spend?

[madtinker]

Edition, sources, level?

Ninja'd

For a new player, keep it SIMPLE. Don't need anything fancy to be a good druid, but it would be easy to overwhelm a newbie.

[eggynack]

You seem to want a pretty wide range of information, so I could always just send over the handbook I'm working on. Pretty sure it's the most comprehensive guide to the stuff out there, though getting through all of it might take more time than you have. Still, can't go too far off course just picking out the best options for now, and then spending some more time with it later.

[thecrimsondawn]

Edition, sources, level?

Ninja'd

For a new player, keep it SIMPLE. Don't need anything fancy to be a good druid, but it would be easy to overwhelm a newbie.

He is not a new player, just new to druids. He was the DM for the numenera game that I completely dominated through the use of physics and we both agreed that the spellcasting type for that game just may be the most unbalanced thing ever made.

Starting wealth is by starting wealth by level +8000gp

All sources from 3.0-3.5 are allowed, so quite a few of us have dragon mag related stuff ;-)

[thecrimsondawn]

I just talked to him a bit more, it seems he likes the shifter race as well.

Im thinking about going for that pre made build I linked above, only taking flaws for extra feats

[eggynack]

I just talked to him a bit more, it seems he likes the shifter race as well.
Shifter's pretty great, but it does its best work as applies to summoning. What you really want is something like druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8 running the first and fourth shifter druid substitution levels.


Im thinking about going for that pre made build I linked above, only taking flaws for extra feats.
You don't need to have a really powerful build for druidry, but it's still worth note that that build isn't all that powerful. The itemization is weirdly AC oriented where you can achieve similar results through a monk's belt and luminous armor, and most of the feats aside from natural spell are worse than things you can do otherwise. I mean, jeez, he's specifically running book of exalted deeds, so luminous just seems like an obvious grab. If you just want to get it done with, which is an entirely understandable thing, then go ahead, but a druid can be built much better than that.

[thecrimsondawn]

Shifter's pretty great, but it does its best work as applies to summoning. What you really want is something like druid 8/moonspeaker 4/druid 8 running the first and fourth shifter druid substitution levels.


You don't need to have a really powerful build for druidry, but it's still worth note that that build isn't all that powerful. The itemization is weirdly AC oriented where you can achieve similar results through a monk's belt and luminous armor, and most of the feats aside from natural spell are worse than things you can do otherwise. I mean, jeez, he's specifically running book of exalted deeds, so luminous just seems like an obvious grab. If you just want to get it done with, which is an entirely understandable thing, then go ahead, but a druid can be built much better than that.

This is exactly the kinda insight I was looking for! Its something that comes from either experience or research - something I have little of when it comes to druid.

Let me look at moon speaker, I hear its name come up a lot reading up on druids...

[BilltheCynic]

I don't have too much experience with druids, but from what I've heard the Vow of Poverty form BoED is amazing for them. It gives them a huge amount of scaling bonuses over the levels at the cost of not being able to own or use items, which they can't do anyway while Wildshaped and Druid spells can take care of most things you would need magic items for anyway. Also gives bonus exalted feats, some of which are very nice like Nymph's Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice.

[eggynack]

I don't have too much experience with druids, but from what I've heard the Vow of Poverty form BoED is amazing for them. It gives them a huge amount of scaling bonuses over the levels at the cost of not being able to own or use items, which they can't do anyway while Wildshaped and Druid spells can take care of most things you would need magic items for anyway. Also gives bonus exalted feats, some of which are very nice like Nymph's Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice.
Not exactly. Vow of poverty is better for a druid than for any other class, for a number of reasons, but it's still significantly worse than proper itemization across all levels. You can absolutely use items while wild shape'd, first of all, due to wilding clasps from the magic item compendium and the trappings of the beast from complete champion, as well as ioun stones if ya want. Lotsa options to pull that off. Second, while various abilities do take care of most of the things you need, they don't take care of a lot of the things you want. You can fly no problem, but stuff like a belt of battle, rods of extend spell, the ring of the beast, they're just much better than VoP stuff.

Third, while druids do have just about the best exalted feat list of any class, with exalted wild shape, exalted companion, and words of creation, in addition to stuff that works well with natural weapons, you're still going to be running dry before you close out a build. That's even true when adding in the champions of valor material. Vow of poverty being good on a druid means that it only makes them a little worse, where for another class it could make them either a little more worse or completely destroy them. I wouldn't begrudge anyone for taking it, cause it allows for some cool stuff and takes away some of the intense book keeping that is a druid, but it's not a beneficial thing.

[thecrimsondawn]

The animal companion hit dice is throwing me off a bit. Could someone give me a quick breakdown? :)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you can take two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) for two extra feats, get Bestial Instinct and Love of Nature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30) (-2 and DC 14, respectively).

Never take Vow of Poverty, and ignore dandwiki's existence, the only things remotely credible there have been reposted from somewhere else.

Here's how I would make a melee-combat-focused 11th level Druid:

NG Human, Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) 1/ Druid 10
Trade the free Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion in CC. Cleric domains are Planning and Undeath (which is fitting for enemies of the undead if they only get 1st level spells from it).
Feats, with two flaws: Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell, and Extra Turning; Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a), Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Multiattack, Craft Rod.
Ability scores are Wis > Con > nothing else matters, since he'll always be in wild shape form.
Skills: Get at least one rank in Knowlege: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, and The Planes, so Knowledge Devotion always gives at least +1 against every type of opponent. Keep max ranks in Concentration, Handle Animal, Survival, Spot, and Listen, if his Int is high also consider Kn: Nature, Hide, and Move Silently.

Wild Cohort specifies that it grants you an animal cohort in addition to your animal companion, but there's no prohibition on dismissing both creatures and recruiting a new animal follower that benefits from both. You can get a 'level -3' companion and Natural Bond will cancel out that penalty, since you can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. Your companion should be a Fleshraker dinosaur in MM2, which has Druid 10 animal companion benefits and 8th level Wild Cohort benefits. Say you used Handle Animal to give it the Warbeast template in MM2. That will be a 15 HD Fleshraker, you'll want to give it two cross-class ranks in Spellcraft so it can take Mage Slayer, and the other feats from the Mage Slayer line in CA are also useful. Ability Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#abilityFocus): Poison and Virulent Poison in Savage Species are decent choices. Consider giving it Power Attack and Leap Attack, and give it Armbands of Might in MIC, so when it Power Attacks for -2 to hit it gets +4 damage, which Leap Attack increases to +8.

I'm going to recommend a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp, for multiple reasons. The Monk's Belt gives him the unarmed strike and AC bonus of a 5th level Monk, which means he can full attack with unarmed strikes and make natural weapon attacks as secondary attacks. He also gets to add his Wis bonus to his AC, in addition to the +1 that a Monk 5 gets. Furthermore, an item with a Wilding Clasp 'continues to function' when you Wild Shape, which would include both magic and mundane functions. One function of a belt is to hold other items, so with the Wilding Clasp it will continue to serve this function when you wild shape. That means any other items on your belt, such as metamagic rods, will also be usable when you wild shape.

I'm going to recommend a standard Strand of Prayer Beads that has the Bead of Smiting removed. The DMG's pricing puts this at only 9,000 gp, despite the SRD pricing telling a different story. Note that the DMG errata did not change this, and per primary source rules, the DMG will take precedence in games of Dungeons and Dragons. The standard strand without the smiting bead still contains the Bead of Healing and the Bead of Karma. Of course you should use the Bead of Karma just before casting your daily buffs. The strand can be held on your belt along with other items.

I'm also going to recommend putting Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) on bones that serve as spell foci for Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) (turning). The bones' passage of time will be 365 times slower, so the spell should last that much longer when using one of those as the focus. The unguent never wears off, and the same bones can be reused for the spell as many times as you want. Number them and thread them onto a string, and arrange them from longest to shortest remaining duration. When you use one, use it from the shortest duration side, then move it around to the top of the loop and put a twist in the loop to hold it separate from the rest, when you recast it on one, move it around to the end with the longest duration. You can keep this on your belt as well. At your current level, you'll have a caster level of 14 if cast while the Bead of Karma is active. You can use a Lesser Rod of Extend with it, in which case the duration will be just under 71 days. I'll budget nine Unguent of Timelessness, enough for 72 bones. Prepare and cast that once per day to always have 71 ready for use and one unused, assuming you only spend one per day. If you always use them from the shortest duration side and always cast it once per day, you'll never have fewer due to the duration expiring.

Equipment (66,000 gp at ECL 11):
Monk's Belt (13k) + Wilding Clasp (4k)
Circlet of Rapid Casting (15k) + Enhancement bonus to Wis +2 (4k, MIC p234) + Wilding Clasp (4k)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend x2 (3k gp, 240 xp, crafted)
Night Stick x3 (11,250 gp, 900 xp, crafted)
Standard Strand of Prayer Beads missing the Bead of Smiting (9k per DMG pricing)
Unguent of Timelessness x9 (1350)
Wand of Lesser Vigor (750)
650 gp remaining, with no gear for your animal companion. Get rid of the Enhancement to Wis if you want to give it Armbands of Might.

Buffs are what makes this character powerful. With three Night Sticks (which don't have a benefit expresses as a bonus, so the rule on bonuses stacking doesn't apply), Extra Turning, and Cha 14 you'll be able to DMM: Persist three spells per day. Those three spells should be Bite of the Weretiger, Mass Lesser Vigor on the whole party, and Superior Magic Fang. As I said, always use the Bead of Karma before casting them. You should actually cast your buffs just before you rest, so you have them all prepared again while adventuring in case you get dispelled. There are also a few hour/level buffs you should use every day, which will last 28 hours (Lesser Rod of) Extended, or naturally 24-hour duration spells. These include Heart of Air, Heart of Water, maybe Heart of Earth/Fire, Longstrider, Endure Elements, Greater Resistance, and Greater Luminous Armor in BoED. Note that the Str damage sacrifice that occurs when that ends applies to your normal form, you'll still have the Str score of whatever form you take when you Wild Shape. Also note that to cast Sanctified spells such as Greater Luminous Armor you must be good-aligned, but it does not state that you must be exalted. Many of those long duration buffs can also be cast on your animal companion.

Check here for Wild Shape forms to use (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.0), don't forget to cast Enhance Wild Shape beforehand, and Bite of the Weretiger will still provide its bonuses to whatever form you're currently in. Other spells to keep prepared include Kelpstrand, Lesser Creeping Cold which should always be cast (Lesser Rod of) Extended, Kelpstrand, Dispel Magic, Kelpstrand, Daylight, Kelpstrand, extra Heart of Air/Water/Earth in case you need to use its emergency mode, and especially Kelpstrand since you can use the Circlet of Rapid Casting with it to crowd control multiple opponents. Note that its grapple bonus instead of BAB+Str+Size is BAB+Wis+CL, which means you're almost guaranteed to win that contest against all but the biggest/strongest opponents.

[Hiro Quester]

The good thing about druid is that it is easy to adapt as you learn. Prepare different spells. Get a different animal companion. Choose a different wildshape form next time. Summon different nature's ally.

The overheads for druid can be very time-consuming. Esp for a player new to druid. They have to run the PC and animal companion, and summoned animals.

Like others have said, WIS>CON>everything else. A little INT for skills doesn't hurt. CHA matters a tiny bit for social skills which also apply to animals. Dump str and dex, since wildshape makes them irrelevant.

Because CON matters, a race with +con is good (elves not so much, then). If nonhuman, then consider Forest Gnome. +CON, and a language you share with forest creatures.

Keep it simple as possible at first. I men that. So choose a couple of likely wildshapes and stick to them (flier, swimmer, grappler, pouncer). And choose a couple of SNA summonses and make sheets for them, so you have the stats handy.

Decent early feats should be spell focus conjuration and augment summoning, extend spell if you have another feat before 6th. You MUST take natural spell at 6th. Companion Spellbond (PHB2)is good for 9th. Or one that improves wildshape options (multiattack, for instance). Or extend if you haven't taken that already.

If you put a few skill ranks into knowledge religion, spontaneous healer feat can be useful, since in wildshape you can't use wands, and it saves you from having to devote prepared spells to heals ( and don't forget that when you heal yourself, share spells makes it apply to your AC for free, too).

For animal companion the druid handbooks's guide is good. Fleshraker dinosaur is most powerful if MM2 is on the table. Or for simplicity choose a grappler (brown bear or crocodile), pouncer (big cat, like a tiger).

Which spells the player prepares doesn't matter that much, since they can be converted to SNA, which is often better than anything a spell could do. Certainly better than many of your blasting spells until you get higher levels.

But prepare spells that buff self (and AC) or other party members. Everyone appreciates barkskin, since few PCs get natural armor. And speak with animals is important for giving complex commands to summoned animals.

Learn all the languages that Elementals speak (ignan, auran, aquan, terran) since elenomental summonses are very useful, if you can give them detailed instructions.

[Bronk]

You seem to want a pretty wide range of information, so I could always just send over the handbook I'm working on.

Could I take a look at the handbook too? I've been super curious about it for a while now and I'd love a new resource...

[atemu1234]

I don't have too much experience with druids, but from what I've heard the Vow of Poverty form BoED is amazing for them. It gives them a huge amount of scaling bonuses over the levels at the cost of not being able to own or use items, which they can't do anyway while Wildshaped and Druid spells can take care of most things you would need magic items for anyway. Also gives bonus exalted feats, some of which are very nice like Nymph's Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice.

Not perfect, but definitely better than average.