Drow vs Deep Gnome

[Spacehamster]

So both gets better darkvision but the deep gnoam does not get the sensitivity, does it make sense
to remove that sensitivity from the drow since no other race has such disabilities?

[Gritmonger]

So both gets better darkvision but the deep gnoam does not get the sensitivity, does it make sense
to remove that sensitivity from the drow since no other race has such disabilities?

Drow also gets innate magic with progression, gratis... if you take away the sun-sensitivity, you'd be better making the spells a feat similar to the Deep Gnomes as well.

Edited to add: remember that Deep Gnomes are small, so they get the 25 speed and the disadvantage with heavy weapons on top of that.

[Spacehamster]

True, just curious if anyone plays Drow at all with that big problem they have? Disadvantage on pretty much
anything during bright light seems kinda harsh and it does not make sense either. If you are a surface drow you
will gradually have been getting used to the sun. :)

[Kryx]

Deep Gnomes are worse versions of Forest Gnomes. They're not good mechanically. Definitely should've kept their unique stats as given in the DMG and kept some spells.

Surface Drow: Remove sunlight sensitivity, decrease darkvision to 60ft. That's what PF did with a racial trait.

[ChubbyRain]

The disadvantage from direct sunlight isn't as bad of a problem. Most of the time you wont be in direct sunlight such as when you are in buildings, caves, forest, and such. Even if you have an umbrella you can get around the direct sunlight issue.

Princess Peach as a Drow sounds like a cool concept.

[Mandragola]

Depends on the class. I have a drow sorceror for hotdq (formerly a silver dragon who got put in a drow's body by Bahamut to teach her a lesson, which complicates matters!). On the plus side I hardly ever roll to hit, because I mostly cast spells at people. These require that the baddies take saving throws rather than me make attack rolls, so it's no biggie that I can't see well. Things would obviously be very different if I played a rogue or something.

Sunlight sensitivity has always been a thing for drow. Not so much for deep gnomes - if ever. So really it would be odd if they didn't have it.

[SharkForce]

The disadvantage from direct sunlight isn't as bad of a problem. Most of the time you wont be in direct sunlight such as when you are in buildings, caves, forest, and such. Even if you have an umbrella you can get around the direct sunlight issue.

Princess Peach as a Drow sounds like a cool concept.

that helps somewhat, but you still have problems if your target is in direct sunlight too.

[ChubbyRain]

that helps somewhat, but you still have problems if your target is in direct sunlight too.

Nope, you have to be in direct sunlight (your eyes). D&D has a long standing issue with sight being based on where you are at not where your target is at.

Even in this game, if you are in nonmagical darkness you are blind even if there is a light source down a hallway. You can't see that light cause you have the blind condition.

The that same principal and apply it to Drow.

But even outside this the effect says if you are in direct sunlight not what you are looking at.

[SharkForce]

Nope, you have to be in direct sunlight (your eyes). D&D has a long standing issue with sight being based on where you are at not where your target is at.

Even in this game, if you are in nonmagical darkness you are blind even if there is a light source down a hallway. You can't see that light cause you have the blind condition.

The that same principal and apply it to Drow.

But even outside this the effect says if you are in direct sunlight not what you are looking at.

no, it's quite explicit. if you or your target are in direct sunlight, you have a harder time perceiving (with sight) or making attack rolls against them. for basically every other effect, you're right. only the light around you matters. but sunlight sensitivity (or at least the one in the PHB drow racial description) very specifically calls out the location of your target as being important.

[Rowan Wolf]

Or you could run something like this:

Optional Feat
Surface Adaptation
Prerequiste: Elf (Drow)

Through tenacity and time you have adapted to the rigors of life on the surface, choose one ability score you gain the following benfits:
You increase the chosen ability score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You no longer suffer from sunlight sensitivity.
You gain proficiency with one skill or tool of choice. Or you learn one language of choice.

If you think the feat is too strong tone it down.

[Kryx]

Or you could run something like this:
Optional Feat
Surface Adaptation
Prerequiste: Elf (Drow)

A feat is too large of a tax. And you're really just throwing in the ability score improvement and the skills to make it somewhat worthwhile. They don't fit thematically.

If they want to play a surface drow just drop the darkvision to 60 and remove light blindness. Maybe have this happen after level 4 or something so it takes time.

[Rowan Wolf]

If that is how you feel then house rule it for your games however you want, but is the issue that the drow have a game mechanic penalty while other races do not?
I was just putting out an option.

[Spacehamster]

A feat is too large of a tax. And you're really just throwing in the ability score improvement and the skills to make it somewhat worthwhile. They don't fit thematically.

If they want to play a surface drow just drop the darkvision to 60 and remove light blindness. Maybe have this happen after level 4 or something so it takes time.

I would say the feat fits very well if you make it fit, say as asi you pick STR, and for skill/tools you pick athletics. So basicly your pc has been on the surface for a couple years and during that time his adventures involved lots of climbing, lifting and other heavy things thus giving him 1STR and athletics. :)

[M Placeholder]

Deep Gnomes are worse versions of Forest Gnomes. They're not good mechanically. Definitely should've kept their unique stats as given in the DMG and kept some spells.


This. You lose the Minor Illusion Cantrip, and most importantly, a Pet.

[Fyorl]

True, just curious if anyone plays Drow at all with that big problem they have? Disadvantage on pretty much
anything during bright light seems kinda harsh and it does not make sense either. If you are a surface drow you
will gradually have been getting used to the sun. :)

The Drow were cursed with sunlight sensitivity by Corellon Larethian. They aren't sensitive to sunlight because they've been living underground, they live underground because they're sensitive to sunlight. So it wouldn't make sense that they would gradually 'get used to' the sun since they're cursed to forever be vulnerable to it.

[SharkForce]

The Drow were cursed with sunlight sensitivity by Corellon Larethian. They aren't sensitive to sunlight because they've been living underground, they live underground because they're sensitive to sunlight. So it wouldn't make sense that they would gradually 'get used to' the sun since they're cursed to forever be vulnerable to it.

why not? there's a goddess whose explicit goal is essentially to redeem drow from Lloth. she's not exactly a major goddess, but i don't imagine she'll have a hard time convincing her dad to remove the curse from her followers.

[M Placeholder]

why not? there's a goddess whose explicit goal is essentially to redeem drow from Lloth. she's not exactly a major goddess, but i don't imagine she'll have a hard time convincing her dad to remove the curse from her followers.

I would imagine she would have quite a hard time convincing her dad, considering shes dead.

[Fyorl]

why not? there's a goddess whose explicit goal is essentially to redeem drow from Lloth. she's not exactly a major goddess, but i don't imagine she'll have a hard time convincing her dad to remove the curse from her followers.
As Dark Sun Gnome mentioned, Eilistraee is dead but it is of course possible that Corellon could lift the curse from those he deems worthy. My issue was with the idea of 'getting used' to the sun as though the Drow developed sunlight sensitivity because they lived underground, which is not the case at all.

[Spacehamster]

But I guess you could just wear a pair of sunglasses to overcome the issue. :D

[Gwendol]

And look sharp while doing so!

[SharkForce]

As Dark Sun Gnome mentioned, Eilistraee is dead but it is of course possible that Corellon could lift the curse from those he deems worthy. My issue was with the idea of 'getting used' to the sun as though the Drow developed sunlight sensitivity because they lived underground, which is not the case at all.

I kinda stopped paying attention to the fluff when it started looking like WotC didn't give a crap about what fans liked about various settings. not to mention that it's highly doubtful she's dead in every single setting.

besides which, turns out that in FR dead gods are only mostly dead the vast majority of the time anyways.

[Chronos]

Yeah, how many times has Mystra died now?

[Rowan Wolf]

Also noted Elistraee didn't die in her home plane so... It is possible I kind of remember Perkins or Mearls mentioning that fact in a video or a thread. I really need to hunt it down.

[jazzymantis]

Yeah, how many times has Mystra died now?

Well she has died several times, and I know that at least a few of those times mortals or other gods assumed her portfolio and along with that her name.

So it is almost like Mystra is the title of the goddess of magic, not that Mystra is a continuous single entity.

[xroads]

This. You lose the Minor Illusion Cantrip, and most importantly, a Pet.

Pet? I don't have the PHB in front of me, but I don't recall forest gnomes having any pet feature.

If memory serves, they have

+1 dex,
minor illusion cantrips,
and the ability to talk to small furry woodlands critters.


Did I miss something?

[M Placeholder]

Pet? I don't have the PHB in front of me, but I don't recall forest gnomes having any pet feature.

If memory serves, they have

+1 dex,
minor illusion cantrips,
and the ability to talk to small furry woodlands critters.


Did I miss something?

In the description, it states

"Forest Gnomes love animals and often keep squirrels, badgers, rabbits, moles, woodpeckers and other creatures as beloved pets"

For my Gnome bard, I chose a Badger as a pet, and my DM sent me a message asking if I had chosen a name for my animal companion, so its now treated as one in game. As its only got one bite attack and has 1 hit die, I haven't found a use for it as yet, but you never know when it will come in handy.

[Shining Wrath]

I have homebrewed surface drow - no innate spellcasting, 60' darkvision, no sunlight sensitivity.

To me it makes sense that the following process might happen:
1) Drow matriarch realizes her entire clan is on the losing end of Drow politics, which means she is about to die - and yes, all her clan, too, but especially her
2) Matriarch makes a break for the surface as an alternative to death, and a large part of the clan follows her because they don't have a backup plan they can rely on
3) Desperate gambit succeeds!
4) Lolth abandons them because that's how she rolls
5) Priestesses perforce choose new deity or deities
6) Over time, if the surface colony survives, alignment drift is possible, even likely

And therefore you wind up with drow adapted to surface life and not necessarily evil.

[Fyorl]

I have homebrewed surface drow - no innate spellcasting, 60' darkvision, no sunlight sensitivity.

To me it makes sense that the following process might happen:
1) Drow matriarch realizes her entire clan is on the losing end of Drow politics, which means she is about to die - and yes, all her clan, too, but especially her
2) Matriarch makes a break for the surface as an alternative to death, and a large part of the clan follows her because they don't have a backup plan they can rely on
3) Desperate gambit succeeds!
4) Lolth abandons them because that's how she rolls
5) Priestesses perforce choose new deity or deities
6) Over time, if the surface colony survives, alignment drift is possible, even likely

And therefore you wind up with drow adapted to surface life and not necessarily evil.

Step 5.5) New deity petitions Corellon Larethian to lift the curse on their drow followers.

[Shining Wrath]

Step 5.5) New deity petitions Corellon Larethian to lift the curse on their drow followers.

Might be 6.5. If the drow are still CE ol' CL is not going to look with favor on Erynthul asking for a curse-lift.

[JAL_1138]

Playing a Deep Gnome means you get to make other players and the DM try to pronounce Svirfneblin. "Correct" their pronunciation each time, even if they're spot-on. *Especially* if they're spot-on.

[Rowan Wolf]

Playing a Deep Gnome means you get to make other players and the DM try to pronounce Svirfneblin. "Correct" their pronunciation each time, even if they're spot-on. *Especially* if they're spot-on.

You tempt them to just say smurfnablen (or just smurf) and call it done.