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View Full Version : Any Games Where Characters Lose Humanity by Taking Supernatural Forms?



Vrock_Summoner
2015-03-16, 12:20 AM
It's kind of specific, but basically, I was wondering if there are any games where the players have characters with "normal" forms (usually just humans, but might include nonhumans in certain genres, like elves and dwarves in fantasy and whatever) that are not especially powerful, and who are most likely pitted against things that far outstrip them in every way in their "normal" forms, but who have the ability to transform into a significantly more powerful form (monstrous, eldritch, whatever) pretty much at their discretion, with the associated cost of taking these forms being that the character slowly loses their sanity/humanity/etc. the more they use the form. Does anything come to mind that fits the bill for this?

SowZ
2015-03-16, 01:06 AM
It's kind of specific, but basically, I was wondering if there are any games where the players have characters with "normal" forms (usually just humans, but might include nonhumans in certain genres, like elves and dwarves in fantasy and whatever) that are not especially powerful, and who are most likely pitted against things that far outstrip them in every way in their "normal" forms, but who have the ability to transform into a significantly more powerful form (monstrous, eldritch, whatever) pretty much at their discretion, with the associated cost of taking these forms being that the character slowly loses their sanity/humanity/etc. the more they use the form. Does anything come to mind that fits the bill for this?

There's systems within World of Darkness fairly similar to what you are describing.

IZ42
2015-03-16, 01:10 AM
I suppose the taint system from 3.5 or 3.0(forget which) could work with some adaptation, but I haven't read through it enough to tell you definitively.

Arbane
2015-03-16, 01:31 AM
The Japanese RPG Double Cross (which has been translated into English) sort of has that - people infected with the Renegade Virus gain superpowers, and overuse of them leads to insanity and monstrousness. And one or two of the powers let you transform into a monstrous form.

comicshorse
2015-03-16, 07:25 AM
There's systems within World of Darkness fairly similar to what you are describing.

Indeed 'Werewolf : The Apocalpyse' for OWoD (which also has rules for playing the other Changing breeds) and 'Werewolf : The Forsaken' for NWoD.
However only speaking for first one (as that one I've played) transforming into a Werewolf doesn't destroy the P.C.'s Humanity as such, the violent actions they may perform when turned into a huge beast filled with primal rage might

Geostationary
2015-03-16, 02:26 PM
Indeed 'Werewolf : The Apocalpyse' for OWoD (which also has rules for playing the other Changing breeds) and 'Werewolf : The Forsaken' for NWoD.
However only speaking for first one (as that one I've played) transforming into a Werewolf doesn't destroy the P.C.'s Humanity as such, the violent actions they may perform when turned into a huge beast filled with primal rage might

Demon: the Descent is rather literal about it; demons can do what's called "Going Loud" and assume a powerful version of their true demonic form for a scene, but it comes at the cost of literally destroying their human Cover and drawing the attention of their hunters. If you don't have another Cover to assume afterwards you're in for a world of hurt and an awful lot of running.

kaoskonfety
2015-03-16, 02:52 PM
Could be fairly easily modelled as a use flaw (mental disadvantages) on "alternate form" in GURPS.

Not sure how drastic to actually make it - it would vary from slow constant erosion (quirks add up to minor flaws add up to...) or small chances of significant change.

Karl Aegis
2015-03-16, 04:33 PM
The Samurai from Tenra Bansho Zero lose their ability to have children, but have the ability to turn into a One-Man Army capable of fighting 25 foot tall Yoroi Armours. They are pretty much the only thing that can fight off Asura Samurai, which are normal Samurai that have lost any semblance of humanity after their surgery and are notable in just how much dice (and therefore damage) they can actually throw out. Overuse of Samurai abilities can also make you become an Asura Samurai.

mikeejimbo
2015-03-16, 04:56 PM
Could be fairly easily modelled as a use flaw (mental disadvantages) on "alternate form" in GURPS.

Not sure how drastic to actually make it - it would vary from slow constant erosion (quirks add up to minor flaws add up to...) or small chances of significant change.

GURPS Horror has a Corruption system to model this. You can add the Corrupting, -20% modifier to Alternate Form and Corruption eventually builds up to thematically appropriate Disadvantages.

TheCountAlucard
2015-03-16, 04:58 PM
I wanna say Mythender, but it's been a while since I've read it.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-16, 07:17 PM
The Dresden Files RPG, IIRC (it's been a while). Basically the more powerful critters run out of free will: so e.g. the Winter Queen would be powerful enough to do whatever the heck she wants, but because of all the restrictions and rules around her she's effectively only ever got one possible course of action open at any time. It's not explicitly losing "humanity", but because the rules tend not to lead you in the direction of "I am a nice, rational person, full of good human vibes" it amounts to the same thing.

ETA: although it's a continuous passive effect so a werewolf always has a lower FATE point cap and refresh then a regular human, regardless of what form it's in. So maybe not quite what you were looking for.

ReaderAt2046
2015-03-16, 08:35 PM
The Dresden Files RPG, IIRC (it's been a while). Basically the more powerful critters run out of free will: so e.g. the Winter Queen would be powerful enough to do whatever the heck she wants, but because of all the restrictions and rules around her she's effectively only ever got one possible course of action open at any time. It's not explicitly losing "humanity", but because the rules tend not to lead you in the direction of "I am a nice, rational person, full of good human vibes" it amounts to the same thing.

ETA: although it's a continuous passive effect so a werewolf always has a lower FATE point cap and refresh then a regular human, regardless of what form it's in. So maybe not quite what you were looking for.

Though the DFRPG does have a couple of effects more along the lines of what the OP seemed to be talking about. First we have the Human Form "power", which basically reduces the free-will cost of a supernatural power by stipulating that it's not available in the PC's baseline form, they have to shift into a more magical form to use it.

The other one are the changelings. In the book lore, changelings are the children of humans and Fae. Every changeling is torn between their Fae and human natures. A changeling can draw power from their Fae side, but every time they dig deeper for power, they grow more Fae, both in body and mind. Eventually, a changeling who follows this path will Choose the Fae, giving up her last bit of humanity and transforming fully into one of the Fae. Short of that final Choice, a changeling can use their human free will to instead Choose humanity, permanently loosing all fae influence and becoming fully human.

In game mechanics terms, changelings can essentially get appropriate new powers (and loose the appropriate amount of free will) at any time. If they pick up so many powers that their free will goes below zero, they become an NPC fae. Short of that, a changeling may instead choose to give up all supernatural powers, gaining the "human" template in their place.

ClockShock
2015-03-16, 08:43 PM
Call of Cthulhu, if you want some very short games :smallbiggrin:

Necroticplague
2015-03-17, 04:56 AM
Cthulutech has something similar with the Tagers, people who can physically transform into monsters. I don't recall the mechanics forcing them to grow less human over time, but their encouraged to do so by their method of advancement (i.e, upgrading their monster form requires not only a bunch of skills, but a ridiculous devotion to hunting their evil counterparts and a distinctly inhuman mindset).

Kiero
2015-03-17, 08:07 AM
Werewolf: the Forsaken 2nd edition does this. Your main "power stat" Primal Urge makes it harder to live like a human the higher it goes. Plus Harmony tracks your balance between Flesh (ie human) and Spirit (ie not). It's not a downward spiral as in other nWoD lines, but an equilibrium; there's good and bad things about any end of the spectrum, or being in the middle.

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-17, 11:45 AM
Not quite what you're after, as it's not strictly supernatural (only superhuman) and can't be done at will, but still worth of mention: Cyberpunk, with its rules for cyberization and losing humanity for extensive transhuman modifications. The more of your flesh you replace with steel or bioengineered components, the less you can relate to rest of humanity (=loss of empathy) and your sanity may detoriorate to the point of violent psychosis. The game uses humanity points to track where you stand on the ladder.

comicshorse
2015-03-17, 12:22 PM
On that idea Cyberpunk and Shadowrun both have various nasty combat drugs that temporarily give superhuman boosts at the cost of the users sanity/humanity

Eisenheim
2015-03-17, 04:37 PM
If you wan't a campaign focused on the loss of humanity, rather than just having it as an element, you might think about hacking Don't Rest Your Head.

Knaight
2015-03-17, 04:49 PM
Mythender does this. The normal form is still pretty powerful, but the other forms get up to borderline gods - which is helpful, as the antagonists are actual gods. They also put your humanity at risk, and one of the ways to lose a character is through their apotheosis to an actual god.

ondonaflash
2015-03-17, 08:07 PM
From a strictly mechanical perspective the D&D Monk becomes successively less human, becoming immune to disease, poison, supernaturally charming, and immortal. Shedding off humanity one layer at a time to transcend into something alien and perfect.

TheCountAlucard
2015-03-17, 08:26 PM
Depends on edition - 3.5's Monk is still vulnerable to the supernatural stuff, and does die of old age - he just doesn't suffer the infirmities of aging first.

Zyzzyva
2015-03-17, 08:29 PM
Depends on edition - 3.5's Monk is still vulnerable to the supernatural stuff, and does die of old age - he just doesn't suffer the infirmities of aging first.

Yeah, but I'd certainly buy the "high-level monk is losing Humanity points" argument. Not necessarily mandatory, but if someone wanted to play that way I'd be down with it.

Milo v3
2015-03-17, 08:42 PM
Yeah, but I'd certainly buy the "high-level monk is losing Humanity points" argument. Not necessarily mandatory, but if someone wanted to play that way I'd be down with it.

Alternatively, the player might be losing Humanity points by continuing to take levels in it.

Vrock_Summoner
2015-03-17, 11:54 PM
Mythender does this. The normal form is still pretty powerful, but the other forms get up to borderline gods - which is helpful, as the antagonists are actual gods. They also put your humanity at risk, and one of the ways to lose a character is through their apotheosis to an actual god.

Oooh... This sounds quite interesting! Higher-power than I was looking for, but definitely seems like where I was headed. Though, is it gradual, or is it more like a risk of sudden boom from fully human (in mind, though clearly not body) to apotheosis?

Knaight
2015-03-17, 11:56 PM
Oooh... This sounds quite interesting! Higher-power than I was looking for, but definitely seems like where I was headed. Though, is it gradual, or is it more like a risk of sudden boom from fully human (in mind, though clearly not body) to apotheosis?

It's gradual. There are always three forms accessible, human, near-god, and a sort of hybrid between the two. You can get kicked up from one to another, or choose to go up from one to another. If you get kicked up while already in near-god form, welcome to godhood, make a new character.

Sith_Happens
2015-03-18, 05:33 AM
Cthulutech has something similar with the Tagers, people who can physically transform into monsters. I don't recall the mechanics forcing them to grow less human over time

They have to make a [Will save equivalent] every [period of time I don't remember] or suffer SAN loss. Seeing as [Wisdom equivalent] is not only Cthulhutech's god-stat in general but specifically the stat that most other Tager-related things key off of, though, in practice you'll pretty much always pass.

goto124
2015-03-18, 05:59 AM
So all of these is basically 'gain combat ability, but lose out on social situations, also if you overdo it roll a new character'?

How well it goes can depend on how much the campaign depends on social stuff probably? Other concerns can appear- if one PC is enough of a monster to get constantly attacked, it can make the rest of the party very frustrated both IC and OOC.

Imagine if a player did this as an excuse to avoid roleplay...

Necroticplague
2015-03-18, 06:48 AM
They have to make a [Will save equivalent] every [period of time I don't remember] or suffer SAN loss. Seeing as [Wisdom equivalent] is not only Cthulhutech's god-stat in general but specifically the stat that most other Tager-related things key off of, though, in practice you'll pretty much always pass.

I know, after posting that I read back up on my cthulutech. The period of time is one month. They also have to roll vs. two insanity points when they undergo Metamorphosis, and automatically have one insanity point.

Eldan
2015-03-18, 07:06 AM
Dresden files doesn't really work like that.

Characters have an amount of Fate points (it's the FATE system), which are called Will in DF. The more magic and power a character has, the fewer Will. Perfectly normal humans have a lot.

Will can be spent in several ways, but the basic one is getting either a reroll or a +2 to a roll, which is a lot in FATE. That's your basic "grit your teeth and get through it", but can also sometimes be seen as luck, defying fate, etc.

Second, they can be used for a declaration, changing a small and theoretically posible thing about the world. Your friend just happens to be driving by with his car to give you a lift. The guardsman just happens to be distracted by a loud noise. By happy accident, you brought a lighter and a bottle of strong alcohol, just whne you need a lot of fire. So the universe sometimes just goes out of its way to help the mundanes.

Thi, these points are regained by giving in to a compulsion. The game master proposes that one of your character aspects or powers might be a disadvantage in the current situation, or might make you act in a certain way. If you take that disadvantage, you get your fate back. So mundanes can go a lot longer without giving in to compulsion.

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-18, 10:41 AM
The Monk archetype is an excellent example of positive transhumanism. Points to ondonaflash for bringing it up.

---


So all of these is basically 'gain combat ability, but lose out on social situations, also if you overdo it roll a new character'?

Not quite. For example, Cyberpunk has plenty of modifications which are geared towards social skills and information gathering. In LotR and Conan, you net Corruption points for using sorcery, but combat ability is a side-note to the most useful forms of sorcery. "Gain power" would be the most general and correct wording.


How well it goes can depend on how much the campaign depends on social stuff probably? Other concerns can appear- if one PC is enough of a monster to get constantly attacked, it can make the rest of the party very frustrated both IC and OOC.

Making the rest of the party frustrated is kind of the point. Negative consequences for losing humanity exist to discourage this sort of behaviour in the game, so it only makes sense for it to discourage it out-of-game if the players don't actually want adversarial gaming.


Imagine if a player did this as an excuse to avoid roleplay...

In a game where humanity loss that makes you into an antisocial murdermachine, choosing to do that isn't an excuse, it's a deliberate choice to play that role.

Amaril
2015-03-18, 10:44 AM
In LotR and Conan, you net Corruption points for using sorcery, but combat ability is a side-note to the most useful forms of sorcery. "Gain power" would be the most general and correct wording.

Which LotR system are you referring to with that mechanic? I'm not too familiar with many of them.

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-18, 11:03 AM
The CODA version from 2002, I think; the one with photos from the movies.

goto124
2015-03-18, 08:27 PM
Making the rest of the party frustrated is kind of the point. Negative consequences for losing humanity exist to discourage this sort of behaviour in the game, so it only makes sense for it to discourage it out-of-game if the players don't actually want adversarial gaming.

The first sentence, is it IC or OOC? If you want to discourage the behavior, why not just remove the mechanic altogether?

...people want adversarial gaming?

mikeejimbo
2015-03-19, 12:04 PM
It's bad if the players are adversarial, but the characters can be in some groups.

Zavoniki
2015-03-19, 02:30 PM
Better Angles does this. The default setting is that every player character is a supervillain(it makes sense in context), but the main mechanic is that being a terrible human being makes you more powerful. But you are a terrible human being. Which has mechanical disadvantages.

Knaight
2015-03-19, 03:13 PM
Better Angles does this. The default setting is that every player character is a supervillain(it makes sense in context), but the main mechanic is that being a terrible human being makes you more powerful. But you are a terrible human being. Which has mechanical disadvantages.

Better Angels is more complicated than that. It's more that every character is a demon possessed human who takes to super-villainy, and does so in the most hilariously incompetent way possible to placate the demon while doing as little harm as possible. Every player plays both one of those characters and another character's demon, but there's no real form switching or similar.

Frozen_Feet
2015-03-20, 01:55 PM
The first sentence, is it IC or OOC?

It can be either.


If you want to discourage the behavior, why not just remove the mechanic altogether?

The question is backwards. Mechanics like this are typically added in because they are important part of the setting's thematic, and then drawbacks or limits are added so the mechanic is not abused. Also, they exist to create tension, conflict and tough choices. If you don't have the mechanic, you also won't have any of those things.


...people want adversarial gaming?

Adversarial gaming is the default mode in most non-RPG tabletop games, and player versus player can be done rather trivially in most RPGs - after all, there's usually already a referee at the table to mediate conflicts. Indeed, in my experience most new players have to be specifically taught to not play against each other (and I question whether it's even worth it lot of the time, but that's a topic for another thread). Seeing RPGs as purely co-operative is a very narrow view of the hobby.

goto124
2015-03-21, 01:00 AM
I see. Not my type of game. I'll respect that.