[3.5] Unarmed Build Damage Help!

[Nerdguy88]

Final Edit: I have changed the build substantially. Please see my most recent post at the bottom!

So I am making a character and was wondering how the damage would work. I was going to go Monk1/fighter/iron legs boxer/fist of the forest. My character is large size.

Now my question is how do all these things stack! I will be taking the feat Superior Unarmed Strike. So how does a monk 1/FOTF3/ Superior Unarmed Strike all stack together. I am confused on how the damage goes together as they all seem to give their own damage.

Edit: Here is the final class levels
Monk1/Fighter5/FOTF1/Iron Legs Boxer5

Edit2: Another thought. Could I just go fighter 5 and ignore the monk level. Then just take two weapon fighting and apply it to unarmed?
Figher 5/Iron Legs Boxer 5/FOTF2?

Or maybe there is another class that would synergies with this build really well?

[Karl Aegis]

Weaker than a greatsword at that level.

[Feint's End]

Is Tome of Battle and/or Psionics available to you? You can make much stronger unarmed combatants using either Swordsage (ToB) or a Tashalatora based Psywar/Ardent.

Superior Unarmed Strike boosts your monk level by 4 levels if you already have a monks unarmed strike so there is that. No idea how exactly FotF works.

Also you can't TWF with unarmed strikes (well ... only with unarmed strikes that is) .... however WOTC is quite inconsistent on that ruling. My suggestion would still be to use ToB or Tashalatora.

[Nerdguy88]

Sorry I have never used anything out of the tome of battle. How is the sword sage better then a fighter? Well I know that most things are better then multiple fighter levels but how is a sword sage good at hand to hand?

[Karl Aegis]

Superior Unarmed Strike is Tome of Battle, though.

The default swordsage is better than most other base classes at hand to hand combat and can actually use two unarmed strikes as two-weapon fighting with Tiger Claw maneuvers. More than half of their disciplines also use unarmed strikes as their associated weapons.

[Feint's End]

Sorry I have never used anything out of the tome of battle. How is the sword sage better then a fighter? Well I know that most things are better then multiple fighter levels but how is a sword sage good at hand to hand?

There is the semi oficial unarmed swordsage variant (in the adaption section) which gives you the unarmed strike progression of a monk (+ improved unarmed strike ... wouldn't make sense otherwise) in exchange for light armor proficiency. The ac bonus should be changed to only apply when wearing no armor then. This is called the unarmed swordsage.

Then you go straight up Swordsage and focus on Setting Sun, Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw and you are golden.

Swordsage is mainly better than fighter, because you can actually do stuff other than dealing damage. Now don't get me wrong. You have a good damage scaling. At the same time however you get access to cc and mobility (teleportation and such).

[Hiro Quester]

Exactly. Tome of Battle gave melee characters what casters always had: options beyond hitting things hard.

Give ToB a read. The unarmed swordsage is a decent alternative, that's very fun to play, and can still be oriented towards the kind of build you are considering. But better.

Check out stone dragon manoevers for what iron legs would give you. But also tiger claw for speed Skirmisher type manoevers, better than a monk's flurry of blows.

[emeraldstreak]

Why unarmed swordsage>monk>fighter for unarmed damage http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367779-Monk-20-vs-Fighter-20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367779-Monk-20-vs-Fighter-20)

[Darrin]

Now my question is how do all these things stack! I will be taking the feat Superior Unarmed Strike. So how does a monk 1/FOTF3/ Superior Unarmed Strike all stack together. I am confused on how the damage goes together as they all seem to give their own damage.


It's... murky. In general, when you have multiple feats/abilities/effects on your character, you can choose the most beneficial order to apply them. And there's also a problem with how the unarmed damage from FotF is written, as it's not clear what happens when you exceed the damage from FotF.



Edit: Here is the final class levels
Monk1/Fighter5/FOTF1/Iron Legs Boxer5


Friends don't let friends take odd levels of fighter. You're better off starting with Monk 2/Fighter 4, as you get another bonus feat, and Combat Reflexes might come in handy.

Anyway... unarmed damage for a medium Monk 1 is normally 1d6. Superior Unarmed Strike increases your effective monk level up to Monk 5, so your unarmed damage is 1d8 when you take FotF 1. As the text for FotF says, since you already do 1d8, you increase this to 1d10. When you get to FotF, you already do 1d10 damage, so you increase this to 2d6.

However, you should consider maybe starting with Battle Dancer 1/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 (Pounce, Whirling Frenzy), taking Superior Unarmed Strike at 3rd level. (Battle Dancer is in Dragon Compendium, and gives you Improved Unarmed Strike as a monk). Since you don't have monk levels, your unarmed damage continues to scale upward as you gain character levels. How this interacts with FotF is not clear, though. Unless your DM is an absolute stickler for RAW, most people just treat FotF 1 and FotF 3 as "damage steps", you just bump up your unarmed damage according to the monk table. If you've already maxed out at 2d10, use the Weapon Size table (PHB p. 114 or Rules Compendium p. 152) to go up to 4d8.



Or maybe there is another class that would synergies with this build really well?

Warblade 1 or Crusader 1 are good one-level dips. Ranger 1 isn't quite as strong, but has some interesting ACFs (Trap Expert, Spiritual Connection) and allows you to use spell-trigger items with Ranger spells (entangle, CLW, instant of power, etc.)

[Nerdguy88]

Ok so I took a few peoples advise and looked into the swordsage unarmed variant. Here is what I got so far.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=119155

Stats were rolled no point buy. I had 90k gold to spend and managed to get everything and make it to 0 gold!

What about all these stances/maneuver things? I know I need at least one from shadow hand. But what are other good ones to look into? I am reading through the book now. Tome of battle is awesome!

[emeraldstreak]

Ok so I took a few peoples advise and looked into the swordsage unarmed variant. Here is what I got so far.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=119155

Stats were rolled no point buy. I had 90k gold to spend and managed to get everything and make it to 0 gold!

What about all these stances/maneuver things? I know I need at least one from shadow hand. But what are other good ones to look into? I am reading through the book now. Tome of battle is awesome!


ewwww

The amulet is a very poor choice, and the bracers are backups if you can't get better stuff. drop the amulet, get Permanent Greater Magic Fang.

Obviously, get as many buffs from your party as possible, Greater Mighty Wallop, Mage Armor to eventually Greater Luminous Armor.

For after the party buffs, get Use Magic Device. Start relying on wands as soon as possible for the key spells your party cannot buff you with, prior to being able to afford wands consider 1-2 oils/potions for each such spell.

[Darrin]

What about all these stances/maneuver things?

Note: I prefer TWF Swordsages that focus on boosts/counters as the full-round attacks needed for TWF don't mix well with standard-action strikes. So my maneuver advice favors that particular play style. Other players prefer focusing on strikes from one particular discipline, such as Diamond Mind strikes or Setting Sun throws.

Swordsage 1:
Burning Blade (boost) - adds fire damage to a full attack
Shadow Blade Technique (strike) - may do 1d6 cold damage, but also useful for crit-fishing (two chances to roll a nat20)
Wolf Fang Strike (strike) - sorta a mini-pounce (move + attack twice) but mostly this is a prereq for...
Sudden Leap (boost) - swift action movement! Get this and never trade it away!
Charging Minotaur (strike) - If you ever need to charge or push someone into a pit
Island of Blades (stance) - If you're using Shadow Blade, take this stance until you get Assassin's Stance.

Swordsage 2:
Mighty Throw (strike) - Similar to improved trip, debuff enemy by tossing him on his keister.
Flame's Blessing (stance) - If you're going to max out Tumble anyway, might as well get immunity to fire. Many people prefer taking Hunter's Sense at 1st/2nd level because Scent gives you some non-combat utility and you can detect invisible creatures with it, but I prefer flour pouches/torch bug paste.

Swordsage 3:
Cloak of Deception (boost) - Greater invisibility for a round. At the very least, the DM's shopkeepers are going to love this one.

Swordsage 4:
Mountain Hammer (strike) - Swiss army chainsaw. It ignores hardness/DR, use it to break out of adamantine prisons with your bare fists, disable traps/doors, redecorate entire dungeons.
Emerald Razor (strike) [replaces Charging Minotaur] - It's always good to have at least one touch attack in your toolbox.

Swordsage 5:
Zephyr Dance (counter) - Poor man's "abrupt jaunt".
Assassin's Stance (stance) - 2d6 sneak attack, which may open up other sneak-attack-related feats, such as Staggering Strike.

Swordsage 6:
Insightful Strike (strike) -
Mind Over Body (counter) [replaces Mighty Throw] - Fort is likely to be your weakest save. If not, you could pick up Moment of Perfect Mind or Action Before Thought instead.

Swordsage 7:
Death From Above (strike) - I like this one because you get free movement after your attack, allowing you to leapfrog over opponents. Lots of good alternatives though: Searing Blade is another good damage boost for a full attack (the rulebook is in error, it's a swift action to activate), Bounding Assault is like a "crooked charge", and Ruby Nightmare Blade is an upgrade to Insightful Strike. Also, Bonesplitting Strike is easy to overlook, but 2 Con damage without a save is awesomesauce.

[Nerdguy88]

I just finished the maneuvers and stances. I think they are ok?