Gambling in game

[jjcrpntr]

So I'm about to start a new campaign (I'm dm). I've got a player that is playing a rogue that wants to use loaded dice/marked cards to gamble with. How do you guys handle this?

I want to encourage him playing his character, but on the other hand I know this guy will powergame/abuse something if there's a loophole for him to do so.

One thing I'm thinking of his having him do a profession gambler roll and a bluff roll, average the two and say in a large city he could earn that amount divided by 7 for a night of work.

So that we can avoid having minutes spent at the table where only he, one other player and I are rolling off for the gambling, though we may do this for fun occasionally. In this case how do you guys handle the rolls, IE what skills/rolls do you have characters make? He wants to use slight of hand/bluff to swindle people.

One of my thoughts is do the weekly average idea while having the people he's going against making perception checks (as if they are gambling for any decent amount they'd probably be paying attention). If after a day or so they notice things could get hairy for him.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Profession (Gambler) checks seem to be the way to go. If he wants to represent cheating, I'd have him roll the appropriate skill against a static DC to increase his Profession earnings. Something like a 10% bonus for a DC 20 check, 15% for DC 25, and so on. If he fails, he gets caught, with appropriate consequences. (Which I'd probably keep within the realm of the skill challenge, to keep from hogging table time-- say you lose your Profession check worth of gold if you fail the cheat roll, and can't gamble again in that region for 1d4 weeks)

[jjcrpntr]

Profession (Gambler) checks seem to be the way to go. If he wants to represent cheating, I'd have him roll the appropriate skill against a static DC to increase his Profession earnings. Something like a 10% bonus for a DC 20 check, 15% for DC 25, and so on. If he fails, he gets caught, with appropriate consequences. (Which I'd probably keep within the realm of the skill challenge, to keep from hogging table time-- say you lose your Profession check worth of gold if you fail the cheat roll, and can't gamble again in that region for 1d4 weeks)

I like that. Do you think it would be fair if he's in a larger city or a place where gambling is common (a tavern in the rough part of town for instance) to grant NPC's a perception check to notice the loaded dice/marked cards? I want to be fair, but I think if you're setting out to cheat there needs to be some risk.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like that. Do you think it would be fair if he's in a larger city or a place where gambling is common (a tavern in the rough part of town for instance) to grant NPC's a perception check to notice the loaded dice/marked cards? I want to be fair, but I think if you're setting out to cheat there needs to be some risk.
The idea of using a static DC was to simplify/abstract things-- it represents how hard it is to fool the NPCs. You could add a second level of risk/reward tables if you wanted, I suppose. Something like "Criminal Den: +10 DC, +10% reward."

[Spore]

I like that. Do you think it would be fair if he's in a larger city or a place where gambling is common (a tavern in the rough part of town for instance) to grant NPC's a perception check to notice the loaded dice/marked cards? I want to be fair, but I think if you're setting out to cheat there needs to be some risk.

Of course there needs to be some risk. But if he is smart and chooses the questionable etablissements instead of law abidding casinos, he should be fine as long as he avoids the guys he took advantage of. Make it obvious to him that he has to choose IF he cheats, WHERE he cheats and WHO he cheats with.

I'd give him three options:
1) No risk - he uses his Profession (Gambler) to make some cash, but it does give as few as "Profession Basketweaving." check in gp/7 evenings, no counter checks.
2) Some risk - he uses loaded dice but he also uses his normal dice to avoid suspicion. He isn't playing to make enemies and bankrupt people. He plays in questionable surroundings. check in gp/evening. Perception +5, Sense Motive +5.
3) High risk - playing with richer opponents and using all the tools in his reportoire. check in 5gp/evening. Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, additional Diplomacy check (to maintain etiquette).

[jjcrpntr]

Of course there needs to be some risk. But if he is smart and chooses the questionable etablishments instead of law abidding casinos, he should be fine as long as he avoids the guys he took advantage of. Make it obvious to him that he has to choose IF he cheats, WHERE he cheats and WHO he cheats with.

I'd give him three options:
1) No risk - he uses his Profession (Gambler) to make some cash, but it does give as few as "Profession Basketweaving." check in gp/7 evenings, no counter checks.
2) Some risk - he uses loaded dice but he also uses his normal dice to avoid suspicion. He isn't playing to make enemies and bankrupt people. He plays in questionable surroundings. check in gp/evening. Perception +5, Sense Motive +5.
3) High risk - playing with richer opponents and using all the tools in his reportoire. check in 5gp/evening. Perception +10, Sense Motive +10, additional Diplomacy check (to maintain etiquette).

perfect idea, thank you. This is pretty much what I was looking for.

[Doctor Awkward]

I like the way 7th Sea handled gambling.
Whenever you go out gambling, your base odds are 1:1. Without rolling, you break even, ending up with exactly the money you start out with. If you want to make a profit, you have to raise the stakes.

Adapting it to a d20 system, you would probably start off against a flat DC of 15. If you can make that roll your odds become 3:2. So for every 2 gold pieces you bet, you win back 3. It adjusts upwards as follows.



DC
Payout


15
3:2


20
2:1


25
5:2


30
3:1


35
7:2


40
4:1



The cap can be easily set at your discretion. Decide ahead of time how much money the people he is playing with have to lose, and then he is done earning money for the night. A few nights of this and people will probably stop playing against him any more.

There are a couple of options for cheating. You can apply any number of -2 circumstance penalties to his Profession check, make the roll for him, and failure results in him getting caught. Or, you can having him roll a Bluff check against a Sense Motive DC set by you (don't forget the target's favorable modifiers for wanting to believe that he is cheating).
I have a set of Cheater Dice, a d20 with multiple 20's, d6 with more than one 6, and so on, that I use whenever I'm running and the party is involved in a game of chance, and I want the NPC to literally cheat right in front of them.

[Karl Aegis]

It's exactly the same as normal combat. Roll dice, one party yields or loses consciousness and the other party takes all their stuff. Enemies have AC, BAB and miss chances (if level appropriate) and all damage is nonlethal. Combat is a gamble, anyways. Just make gambling combat. No reason to separate them.

[Vrock_Summoner]

It's exactly the same as normal combat. Roll dice, one party yields or loses consciousness and the other party takes all their stuff. Enemies have AC, BAB and miss chances (if level appropriate) and all damage is nonlethal. Combat is a gamble, anyways. Just make gambling combat. No reason to separate them.

I understand things get heated sometimes, but gambling really isn't usually a violent affair, especially if monitored. :smalltongue:

[Spore]

perfect idea, thank you. This is pretty much what I was looking for.

You're welcome. You may even introduce the best gambler in [insert criminal den name] to oppose him if he has a win streak. Just to introduce a rivaling NPC that doesn't tell the authorities when he cheats but rubs it subtly in his face that he knows yet still can't beat him. Or he changes the dice to nonloaded dice with a Sleight of Hand on his own.

Basically show him that he wasn't the first in this town to have the idea. Make it a gentlmanly snobbish guy. Someone you'd love to hate.

[atemu1234]

Yep, Profession (Gambling). Truly skilled gamblers *can* make an amount of money comparable to that present in the game, mostly in taverns and the like. It's just a little more high-risk than people are used to. But professionals can consistently win, enough to make money.

[Spore]

Yep, Profession (Gambling). Truly skilled gamblers *can* make an amount of money comparable to that present in the game, mostly in taverns and the like. It's just a little more high-risk than people are used to. But professionals can consistently win, enough to make money.

Statiscally just because they play majorly against people with almost no skills. Like some guys I know play online poker at nights versus people bored out of their mind so they win or people not even trying like my mother who played cards with the mayor and his friends one time and won like 45 $ in two hours.

[NightbringerGGZ]

After double checking in the Downtime rules, you can make a weekly Profession check that assumes you work 5 out of 7 days to earn 1/2 your result in gold. If you want to make a check every day, you divide your roll by 10. This winds up earning you pretty meager amounts of gold and doesn't seem to represent the kind of gains or losses gambling actually has.

I'd propose the player has to put down a stake of X gold when he goes out gambling. He can now increase this stake based on a Profession Gambling check as follows:

DC 10 - Profits of 25% of your Stake
DC 20 - Profits of 50% of your Stake
DC 30 - Profits of 75% of your Stake
DC 40 - Profits of 100% of your Stake

A player should declare which DC he's aiming to beat, and if he fails on his roll he loses his stake. As gambling is an adversarial encounter, a natural 1 should always fail and a natural 20 should always succeed. Players can gain +5 circumstance bonuses on their rolls through various forms of cheating:

Rigging the Game - Requires a Sleight of Hand check opposed by a Perception check. Loaded dice / marked cards count as a Masterwork tool, granting a +2 bonus on this check.
Distracting Chatter - Requires a Perform (Act, Comedy, Oration) check opposed by a Sense Motives check.
Inspired Bluffing - Requires a Bluff check, opposed by a Sense Motives check.
Charm the Table - Requires a Diplomacy check, opposed by a Sense Motives check.

On top of that, create a roster of common gamblers and write their names, descriptions and relevant attributes onto index cards. Create copies for NPCs who gamble more often. When a player is gambling, draw 1d4 cards and describe the people he'll be playing against. Each additional gambler past 2 should increase earnings by another 25%, but each gambler is able to make opposed checks when the player attempts to cheat.

[Barmoz]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the mechanics of it, but ignoring the practical side. In a world with magic, what local game, much less established casino, lets an unknown newcomer bring their own cards or dice into a game? It just wouldn't happen, and the instant that person goes on a winning streak, the minimum that would happen would be the cards or dice get inspected or at least swapped for someone else's.

[NightbringerGGZ]

We don't know the specifics of the OPs world, how common magic is, if he's gambling at a casino or stepping into local pubs. It's really up to the OP to figure that stuff out anyway.

[jjcrpntr]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the mechanics of it, but ignoring the practical side. In a world with magic, what local game, much less established casino, lets an unknown newcomer bring their own cards or dice into a game? It just wouldn't happen, and the instant that person goes on a winning streak, the minimum that would happen would be the cards or dice get inspected or at least swapped for someone else's.

Ya that stuff I can figure out because you're right he's not walking into an established casino and busting out his own cards. But he's talking about walking into a bar do ding a table and starting a game using his stuff.

Some great ideas here though thanks all.

[Barmoz]

We don't know the specifics of the OPs world, how common magic is, if he's gambling at a casino or stepping into local pubs. It's really up to the OP to figure that stuff out anyway.

Fair enough, I was just pointing out that in a world with magic, I would expect a heightened awareness of cheaters. I've played in many card and dice games in bars all across the Midwest and every bar has a couple decks of cards and a cup full of dice. If he wants to take some kind of skill ranks in profession: gambling he could have a statistical advantage over joe schmoe which could translate to winnings per session, but the loaded dice or marked cards idea just doesn't pass the smell test. Maybe with ranks in sleight of hand and bluff he could cheat and get some kind of bonus to his gambling skill, but I wouldn't allow the tools unless you're prepared to roleplay him getting busted.

[Maglubiyet]

Crime lords might not be as forgiving. Remember that scene in Casino when DeNiro smashes that guy's hand with a ballpeen hammer? They caught him cheating at cards...

[Karl Aegis]

I understand things get heated sometimes, but gambling really isn't usually a violent affair, especially if monitored. :smalltongue:

Hit points are such an abstract concept you can deal damage to them with a poker face until they hit 0.