Can kyton use other outsiders?

[Xuldarinar]

Given the nature of kyton, namely their method of self transformation and their ability to convert mortals into other kyton, I have begun to wonder a couple of things.

1. We know kyton can utilize the body parts of mortals, of their own kin, and evidently even attach to themselves shadow itself. Would a kyton be able to modify themselves using the body parts of other outsiders?

2. We know that the kyton can create other kyton by using the soul of a dead mortal, or using a living mortal. Could other types of outsiders be converted into kyton?

Also, If they are capable of such a thing, how would you reflect the resulting creature mechanically?

[Psyren]

This is extremely unlikely - in addition to the line about them being born from mortal souls, the conversion process in B3 specifies that "obscure rituals force the sacrificed souls to bypass the normal judgments of the afterlife and instead become mired in the Plane of Shadow." Given that only mortals are subject to the "judgments of the afterlife," the chances of them diverting a fellow outsider in this way are remote at best. Even the most powerful Kytons (Eremites) explicitly focus on hunting the Material Plane and targeting powerful or singular mortals. There is next to nothing about them even being interested in targeting anyone or anything else.

[Spore]

1) It's up to the DM to decide that. But I can imagine a Kyton torturing creatures that do not need to sleep or eat, just to torture them 24/7. But most outsiders are made from essence, be it elemental, psychological or principle. But if Angels can be corrupted to become Devils, why shouldn't they be able to be consumed by Kytons?

2) I would say chained but not entirely converted. In the same way as a Flesh Golem is a Machine creature, it will ALWAYS stay a corpse stitched together.

If you were to use good outsiders, you could always give them some powers they had when they weren't corrupted. The immunities of an angel would carry over or some kind of reduced regeneration. I could imagine them still having their powers but divine spellcasting is out of the window, regneration is halfed from mortal wounds and torturing devices, but gaining immunity to pain, fear and claw attacks (or spiked chains).

[Xuldarinar]

This is extremely unlikely - in addition to the line about them being born from mortal souls, the conversion process in B3 specifies that "obscure rituals force the sacrificed souls to bypass the normal judgments of the afterlife and instead become mired in the Plane of Shadow." Given that only mortals are subject to the "judgments of the afterlife," the chances of them diverting a fellow outsider in this way are remote at best. Even the most powerful Kytons (Eremites) explicitly focus on hunting the Material Plane and targeting powerful or singular mortals. There is next to nothing about them even being interested in targeting anyone or anything else.

I do agree that it is unlikely though we can only speculate if Kyton Demagogue choose to dabble in more exotic prey or are also strictly inclined to deal with mortals. Provided that the references are correct, we are made aware in "Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars" that Sugroz oversees a research operation that creates new kinds of kyton from living mortals as opposed to souls of the dead. That doesn't mean it necessarily means something of that nature would work on an outsider, but it does pose the notion that there is more than one way to create a kyton. Perhaps such a thing falls under the domain of another Demagogue's activities, or simply none that have the capacity to try have thought to attempt such a thing.


1) It's up to the DM to decide that. But I can imagine a Kyton torturing creatures that do not need to sleep or eat, just to torture them 24/7. But most outsiders are made from essence, be it elemental, psychological or principle. But if Angels can be corrupted to become Devils, why shouldn't they be able to be consumed by Kytons?

2) I would say chained but not entirely converted. In the same way as a Flesh Golem is a Machine creature, it will ALWAYS stay a corpse stitched together.

If you were to use good outsiders, you could always give them some powers they had when they weren't corrupted. The immunities of an angel would carry over or some kind of reduced regeneration. I could imagine them still having their powers but divine spellcasting is out of the window, regneration is halfed from mortal wounds and torturing devices, but gaining immunity to pain, fear and claw attacks (or spiked chains).

Well, as far as conversion statistically, I can see a few routes.

a) Take the Outsider. Rip out alignment subtypes. Maybe rip out associated subtype (angel, demon, daemon, ect.) Apply Evil, Law, and Kyton subtypes, and everything that comes with them. Likely toss them a spiked chain to wield.

b) Take an existing verity of kyton. Describe them as looking different but make little to no changes statistically.

c) Make a unique kyton from scratch.

[Psyren]

I do agree that it is unlikely though we can only speculate if Kyton Demagogue choose to dabble in more exotic prey or are also strictly inclined to deal with mortals. Provided that the references are correct, we are made aware in "Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars" that Sugroz oversees a research operation that creates new kinds of kyton from living mortals as opposed to souls of the dead. That doesn't mean it necessarily means something of that nature would work on an outsider, but it does pose the notion that there is more than one way to create a kyton. Perhaps such a thing falls under the domain of another Demagogue's activities, or simply none that have the capacity to try have thought to attempt such a thing.

While I'm just going off the Bestiary entries and not any APs/novels/supplementary material, a "research operation" implies something new, unique, or otherwise differing from the norm in some way - or at the very least something that may have been tried a handful of times before, but not widely attempted yet. So while there certainly can be Kytons whose parts come from a wide variety of sources, to me such a practice would be pretty rare. And there is even justification - Outsiders' bodies tend to "poof" when they are killed, which could explain why Kytons would avoid using them even if obtaining them were otherwise practical.

I will point out that the Eremite at least does have the ability to gain different/additional SLAs based on the nature of the source for its "parts" - while again the entry refers primarily to different flavors of mortal, I would imagine that - were one to somehow discover a means of implanting angel bits - their abilities would reflect this unorthodox source of power... though the effects of doing so could just as easily be detrimental as they are beneficial.