Most broken feat eva!!

[arkangel111]

so. What in your opinion is the single most broken feat excluding leadership? don't worry about pre-req's or long feat chains just the most powerful single feat in 3.5 and why?

[eggynack]

I'm thinking aberration wild shape. Nilshai form for double actions would be enough to get you right at the top levels of feat power, and then you just add on a ridiculous number of other things, like crazy vision modes, awesome face punching, great defenses, and so on. It's definitely high up there.

[Elricaltovilla]

Epic Spellcasting?

[Vhaidara]

Well, starting from basics, Natural Spell is the most broken feat class feature. Though it does come at the cost of you level 6 feat as a druid.

Divine Metamagic is up there too.

Ignoring prereqs, Weapon Supremacy actually becomes kind of silly.

In PF, Sacred Geometry is probably the most broken thing since Leadership.

[eggynack]

Well, starting from basics, Natural Spell is the most broken feat class feature. Though it does come at the cost of you level 6 feat as a druid.

Yeah, natural spell is better than aberration wild shape, at the very least because it's what enables the latter to be awesome.

[Jormengand]

Item familiar, so long as you're competent at protecting it.

[golentan]

I'd like to mention Reserves of Strength from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book. It not only increases your caster level with a spell, but lets you remove level cap to effects that scale with level. Combined with the right other things, I've gotten such effects as 128 rays of fire per round. It does have a drawback (you are stunned for up to 3 rounds, or if immune to stunning take up to 5d6 damage) but they're easily surmountable with the limit breaking you can do with relatively low level spells that are suddenly as or more powerful than 9th level equivalents.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm going to agree with Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), the benefits are just way too good, and it's available from 3rd level, so it can have an impact on a lot more games than Epic Spellcasting. Make it a ring and wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or slight of hand it. An item familiar is an intelligent item which is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining and they continue to function in antimagic or dead magic areas, though such areas can suppress the benefits you get from the feat. It's useful for any and every character, and it's too good to skip if someone else in the party has it.

[Doctor Awkward]

Agree completely with Natural Spell and Item Familiar.
Though, unlike Leadership, I make a special exception for Item Familiar in games where you have very low tier classes in a party with very high tier classes. A feat like that can do wonders to bridge the gap.
Reserves of Strength is up there too, but I think you can find worse things.

If I had to pick something that wasn't already named, I guess Assume Supernatural Ability gets my vote.

[torrasque666]

I'ma lurk here and compile my banlist. Thanks y'all.

[Necroticplague]

Vow of Poverty. Not sure what they were smoking. "Oh, I give up my wealth, but it doesn't matter, because I get bonuses to make up for everything I lost.And if there's anything this doesn't give me, I can Sculpt Self it into myself anyway, with a slot I saved from the bonus feats it gives me. Oh yeah, did I mention a feat gives me more feats than I gave up?"

More serious note: Epic Spellcasting (there are two ways it works: route to godhood, or ridiculously resource-intensive crap). Natural Spell (because at least normal Wildshape gives you some reason to have STR and DEX above 4, instead of merely spending 24/7 as an animal and dumping those two).

[Doctor Awkward]

I'ma lurk here and compile my banlist. Thanks y'all.

I'd start with banning Core.
You'd probably have the most fair and balanced 3.5 campaign in history.

[Jormengand]

I'd start with banning Core.
You'd probably have the most fair and balanced 3.5 campaign in history.

Leave the poor bard alone. And what did the poor sorc/DD ever do to you?

Core can be balanced if used responsibly.

[GreyBlack]

Leave the poor bard alone. And what did the poor sorc/DD ever do to you?

Core can be balanced if used responsibly.

Glibness. That is all.

One of my favorite campaigns I have ever played got me banned from bards. My DM okayed me to play the Leadership feat on a bard with Dragonfire Inspiration, and an alphorn. Then, I dipped into Warblade so I could actually fight. Needless to say, I was promptly banned from bards.

To the OP: Epic Spellcasting and Sacred Geometry are the only two feats I line-item ban; the former for power reasons, the latter for gameplay reasons. With Leadership, I give the player an army, but not a second character for them to control; instead, they get a hanger-on that helps them out but is a distinct character in their own right.

[Cruiser1]

Divine Metamagic is up there too.
I nominate Persistent Spell. Divine Metamagic is okay as long as you don't use it on Persistent Spell. However, there are other ways to get metamagic reduction to create overpowered persistomancer characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).

[bjoern]

Item familiar. As pointed out earlier, there is no reason for ANY character not to take it. It makes any build that takes it better.
Come up with any build you'd like, and then put item familiar on it to make it better.

[kellbyb]

I nominate Persistent Spell. Divine Metamagic is okay as long as you don't use it on Persistent Spell. However, there are other ways to get metamagic reduction to create overpowered persistomancer characters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280365-Priya-the-Prismatic-Priestess-Buffs-Across-the-Spectrum).

Continuing from there, DMM:Persist usually isn't a problem because it costs so many turn undead charges. It generally only becomes degenerate when you start piling on the nightsticks.

Also, adding my vote for epic spellcasting. Seriously, it's unimaginably broken.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Uncanny Forethought. Ever wished you could cast spells spontaneously as a wizard? Now you can. Because **** you, sorcerers, that's why.

Also, Craft Contingent Spell. It's like Contingency, but without the restrictions.

[Troacctid]

Prooobably Item Familiar. It's not just overpowered, it's also really poorly designed. I think it is actually much worse than Leadership--I would consider allowing Leadership in my games, but I would never allow Item Familiar.

Linked Power deserves a mention. It's pretty absurd how unfair it is.

[A_S]

Focused Lexicon, maybe?

...depending on what kind of "broken" you mean.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm gonna second Uncanny Forethought, bad as Item Familiars are. Quite apart from the whole "cast spontaneously off of the Wizard list thing, there's the "reduce casting time on anything that takes longer than a full round action" thing.

[ImperatorV]

Troll blooded. With a bit of effort you can be immune to damage.

[Talothorn]

Greenbound Summoning

[gooddragon1]

so. What in your opinion is the single most broken feat excluding leadership? don't worry about pre-req's or long feat chains just the most powerful single feat in 3.5 and why?

As mentioned earlier

1. Leadership (Denied)
2. Epic Spellcasting (Others are good earlier, but short of leadership, the things you can accomplish are limited only by your imagination... and your DM)
3. Natural Spell (Class Feature)

Why this ordering:

Leadership is not only a feat, it is any feat in time even other feats like 2 and 3 on the list. The experienced player knows that one of the most valuable currencies in D&D is the action economy. Higher CR enemies lose to lower level parties because of the action economy. It's part of the reason why white raven tactics is so good. Of course, it matters what you do with those actions, but when you give the batman wizard another round of actions it's like going back to 3.0 haste.

Epic Spellcasting falls just short of leadership though if you could make a spell to make more followers then it could be just as good. It's just that in this case, the level at which you can get leadership does make a difference.

Natural Spell is not as good as epic spellcasting because even though it comes sooner it can't do as much. However, it's been called so good that it's basically a class feature. That puts it far above almost any other feat. Even craft contingent spell or item familiar. It's just so unambiguously good and simple (unlike picking out a spell or making an item which could be disjoined and costs money) that it's hard to beat. Admittedly, epic spellcasting costs money, but you get everything in return.

If they were magic the gathering cards...
Leadership = Time Vault (Pair it with the right thing and you win the game)
Epic Spellcasting = Necropotence (Use it with the right costs at the right time and right amount and you win the game)
Natural Spell = Ancestral Recall (No drawback, no chance to screw up, amazing play early and late)

Some Fun:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=45&type=card

Janice was pleased with how the wedding was coming together. Her insect helmet looked great with her bridal dress, the hourglass centerpieces glowed magnificently, her bridesmaids were unrecognizable in their blue-and-red burqas (all the eyes should be on the bride). The only problem was that the cake still wasn't done - maybe asking for a cake the size of a small car had been a bad idea.
Courtesy of gatherer comments.

[deuxhero]

Any of the various variant leaderships (like undead leadership)

[Kraken]

Scoff if you will, but in terms of disruption at actual tables, I've witnessed shock trooper cause as many or more headaches for an unprepared DM than the feats mentioned so far.

[Yael]

Troll blooded. With a bit of effort you can be immune to damage.

And that day I recieved a grim reminder...

Dragonwrought... As long as RAW and RAI are abstract sources of solving the True Dragon thingy... I'll nominate that one.

Also, Divine Metamagic... And Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passions)... Just... No!!!

[atemu1234]

Epic Spellcasting?

/thread. Seriously, /thread.

We should exclude epic feats though, simply because it's the point at which the game (already held together with spit and prayers) dissolves into entropy.

[Jowgen]

While not as overwhelming in terms of pure destructive potential, I think Touchstone technically qualifies as utterly broken. Forget how many different touchstone sight benefits you can choose from, the simple fact that these benefits include any given Domain-granted power (without any of the loops an actual cleric would have to jump through) makes this feat a joke.

Touchstone's benefits may only be somewhat unbalanced (e.g. get EWP and WF in one feat via war domain), but they apply across the whole range of character and optimization levels, meaning anyone from a level 1 monk to a level 20 Wizard can potentially get more than their moneys worth out of this feat. Also you can switch touchstone sites with little effort and take the feat multiple times.

So yeah. Not the very specific reality destroying power of Epic Spellcasting, but a bottomless pit of endless potential character building shenanigans all rolled into a single feat with no real prereques.

[ShurikVch]

1. Innate Spell (Miracle) - Complete Arcane variant
2. Supernatural Transformation

[ZamielVanWeber]

Since Reserves of Strength got mentioned I would like to throw out Irresistible Spell. Its official form was never actually changed, so it's a +4 metamagic that strips a save off a spell. Low level death effects just start running rampant.

I agree with leadership, epic spellcasting and item familiar. I ban leadership and epic spellcasting and nerf item familiar a little (no one takes it anyways thankfully).

[thompur]

Toughness.

[Jormengand]

Since the more obvious ones have been mentioned...

Quicken utterance.

No, I'm not high. Quicken. Freaking. Utterance. Why? Well, what happens when you quicken a spell? Answer: it jumps up 4 levels. When you quicken an utterance? The DC to utter goes up. That's it. And then suddenly you get a hell of a lot more competent, because whatever you could do before? Now you can do two of it.

Hilarious applications include using your swift action to block anything up to and including epic spells from allowing a creature to move out of their square, using your swift action to dispel what your opponent just did last round, or repairing that ninth-level skull talisman you just used. And of course, being able to grab yourself an extra move action out of nowhere helps a lot.

And throwing twice as many solars around as you were before is just the icing on the metaphorical cake.

Managed to defeat some crazy ToB gestalt with a truenamer using this feat. It's more than a little bit silly.

[Curmudgeon]

Item Familiar: it's never been allowed in any game I've run, and I like low-level Epic games.

[Sewercop]

Since Reserves of Strength got mentioned I would like to throw out Irresistible Spell. Its official form was never actually changed, so it's a +4 metamagic that strips a save off a spell. Low level death effects just start running rampant.

I agree with leadership, epic spellcasting and item familiar. I ban leadership and epic spellcasting and nerf item familiar a little (no one takes it anyways thankfully).

It was erratad to +10 to dc actually. Still very very nice, but not hilariously overpowerd.

True believer feat, to be able to create and use cheaper magic items,
Item familiar
Craft contingency
epic spell casting
leadership
undead leadership
etc etc

In the wrong or correct hands they are all overpowerd as hell.. but they are playable for some players.
In our current game we have a dmm cleric, druid summoner going for planar shepard, dragon fire bard, and a wiz\ceric\factotum\marshal\chameleon

Funny thing.. the chameleon is by far the most dominant character,, but that player would not be allowed to play any of the other three characters.
More than minmax and optimizing.. Its about wich player who wields it

[Jormengand]

It was erratad to +10 to dc actually. Still very very nice, but not hilariously overpowerd.

Never officially errata'd I don't think; that said no DM will let the technically-official version fly.

Makes me wonder if Otto's Dance would be a decent spell for its level. Probably.

[Curmudgeon]

Since Reserves of Strength got mentioned I would like to throw out Irresistible Spell. Its official form was never actually changed ...
Kingdoms of Kalamar was never updated to 3.5, so any material from that setting (if allowed at all in a non-KoK D&D game) is subject to DM adjustment.

[Sewercop]

Kingdoms of Kalamar was never updated to 3.5, so any material from that setting (if allowed at all in a non-KoK D&D game) is subject to DM adjustment.

Is it not so that all 3.0 not updated is 3.5 legal ? or am i mistaken

[Curmudgeon]

Is it not so that all 3.0 not updated is 3.5 legal ? or am i mistaken
You're a bit mistaken. Here's the relevant rule, from page 4 of 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide:
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. The problem with 3.0 material without official 3.5 updates is that each individual DM gets to decide what minor adjustments to make. That means nothing from 3.0 is guaranteed; your results depend on the decisions of your particular DM. So you may use a 3.0 feature under one DM, then find that it works differently (or not at all) in another DM's 3.5 game.

[Anthrowhale]

Epic Spellcasting seems the worst to me---even worse than Leadership. But there are two other not-yet-mentioned standouts.

Initiate of Mystra. Combine with AMF on yourself for an "I get all the magic and you get none of it" effect.

Mindsight. A deific sensing feat when used with Formian Queen telepathy. Know the location, type, and intelligence score of everything within 50 miles. Even the more common 100' telepathy mindsight is amazing at tactical distances.

[Curmudgeon]

Initiate of Mystra. Combine with AMF on yourself for an "I get all the magic and you get none of it" effect.
It's really not that powerful, because Antimagic Field has only a 10' radius, and you pick a grid intersection (like "northeast corner of my square") when you cast it, and don't get to shift that location around after casting. Someone with 10' reach, or 5' reach plus a reach weapon, can attack you with their magic weapon and it'll work just fine for them. That's because in melee combat all effects are adjudicated in the attacker's space. (It's the reverse for ranged attacks.) On the other hand, a bad d20 roll on your Initiate of Mystra caster level check will waste your spell.

Not that Initiate of Mystra is a bad feat, but really I like it because of the IoM-only version of Holy Star: that makes IoM Clerics the best blasters in the game. Of course it's a 7th level spell, so blasting may just be an exercise of "more dakka" then; any Cleric with 7th level spells is likely to have good solutions when confronted with enemies who need to be eliminated. Still, I think it's a hoot to have a Cloistered Cleric who undergoes changes of personality depending on spell availability.

Levels 1-6: a coward focused on buffing
Levels 7-12: a front-line melee combatant emboldened by Divine Power
Levels 13+: a Zen-like artillery master calmly obliterating enemies with Holy Star

[Deophaun]

An item familiar is an intelligent item which is regarded as a construct, and constructs cannot be disabled or destroyed by dispelling or disjoining...
Um... where are you getting that from?

[Necroticplague]

Um... where are you getting that from?

Under 'intelligent items' on the SRD:

Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

The rest follows from that (it can't be disjoined because disjunction effects items, not creatures).

[Blackhawk748]

Kingdoms of Kalamar was never updated to 3.5, so any material from that setting (if allowed at all in a non-KoK D&D game) is subject to DM adjustment.

Actually, Players Guide to the Sovereign Lands is KoKs official 3.5 update, its just no longer first party.

[Anthrowhale]

Someone with 10' reach, or 5' reach plus a reach weapon, can attack you with their magic weapon and it'll work just fine for them.


Rules Compendium in the AMF section says: "A magic weapon ... used to attack a creature inside an antimagic field, gains none of the benefits of its magic properties."



On the other hand, a bad d20 roll on your Initiate of Mystra caster level check will waste your spell.


It's an issue, and in general AMF has other issues as well. Many of these issues can be dealt with, but it does require more investment.



Not that Initiate of Mystra is a bad feat


And let's not forget "With this feat, you can cast them [(greater) anyspell] as regular cleric spells..." A small part of IoM is a wisdom based Wizard.

[Kraken]

In thinking about what I've seen cause havoc in actual games more, arcane thesis should probably also be on the list, pretty much for the same reasons as shock trooper, but magnified with the outrageous powers that casters can add.

[Curmudgeon]

Rules Compendium in the AMF section says: "A magic weapon ... used to attack a creature inside an antimagic field, gains none of the benefits of its magic properties."
Which matters if your game uses those Rules Compendium changes. That rule appears nowhere else in the D&D rulebooks, as far as I know. If you've got the Premium core books, all the RC rule changes have been backed out.

[Deophaun]

The rest follows from that (it can't be disjoined because disjunction effects items, not creatures).
Um, nothing follows from that. There is nothing in the game that says magic items cannot be creatures (in fact, the opposite, as golems are explicitly called out as being magic items)

[NeoPhoenix0]

Which matters if your game uses those Rules Compendium changes. That rule appears nowhere else in the D&D rulebooks, as far as I know. If you've got the Premium core books, all the RC rule changes have been backed out.

as much as i hate to argue the point, the premium books don't overrule the RC. The RC overrules any "preexisting" book. The premium books are reprints of the original books, just open the cover and look at the publishing date.

also rather than arguing the point and further derailing the thread, maybe we could just agree that there are multiple interpretations of how these rule updates work?

[Curmudgeon]

The premium books are reprints of the original books, just open the cover and look at the publishing date.
You might try looking elsewhere. One place would be the original Player's Handbook text of Spring Attack and the Premium PH text. It's different, with a clarification added in the Premium book. Check all the errata, and you won't find that change.

So no, I don't think looking solely at the date is helpful. The added all the errata and some improvements to the original rules. There may not be much new content, but they're revisions rather than just reprints.

[Kraken]

On what page does it say that melee attacks are resolved in the attacker's space? As it is now, I can see the AMF rules in the RC potentially overriding that rule because they're more specific.

[Feint's End]

Not that Initiate of Mystra is a bad feat, but really I like it because of the IoM-only version of Holy Star: that makes IoM Clerics the best blasters in the game. Of course it's a 7th level spell, so blasting may just be an exercise of "more dakka" then; any Cleric with 7th level spells is likely to have good solutions when confronted with enemies who need to be eliminated. Still, I think it's a hoot to have a Cloistered Cleric who undergoes changes of personality depending on spell availability.

Levels 1-6: a coward focused on buffing
Levels 7-12: a front-line melee combatant emboldened by Divine Power
Levels 13+: a Zen-like artillery master calmly obliterating enemies with Holy Star


How exactly does holy star make you a good blaster? I looked at the spell and initiate of mystra and i don't see it. Just curious.

[Deox]

How exactly does holy star make you a good blaster? I looked at the spell and initiate of mystra and i don't see it. Just curious.

Holy Star gets added to your list. With Persist-o-mancy, you can free action fire a laser all day long.

[Anthrowhale]

Which matters if your game uses those Rules Compendium changes.

You need a contradiction before precedence comes into play. This is far afield from the topic, so we should probably discuss in a new thread.

[ShurikVch]

From the Dragon #363:

Bind Additional Epic Vestige (Among those Epic Vestiges, say, Tkhaluuljin "the Cephalopocalypse", who allow to temporary summon the Sphere of Annihilation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation))

Epic Destiny (Demigod)

[Feint's End]

Holy Star gets added to your list. With Persist-o-mancy, you can free action fire a laser all day long.

This doesn't really make you a good blaster though. Consistent yes ... but good? 10d6 are nothing I'd call good unless metamagiced to the stars (and even then other spells /powers do it better).

[Werephilosopher]

And let's not forget "With this feat, you can cast them [(greater) anyspell] as regular cleric spells..."

That doesn't really do anything useful, since the spell prepared using anyspell still takes up a domain slot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Quicken utterance.
It's basically in the same boat as Natural Spell-- both are class features disguised as feats. The only difference is that Natural Spell helps one of the strongest classes in the game, and Quick Spell helps one of (possibly the) the most dysfuctional.

[toapat]

And that day I recieved a grim reminder...

Dragonwrought... As long as RAW and RAI are abstract sources of solving the True Dragon thingy... I'll nominate that one.

Also, Divine Metamagic... And Faerie Mysteries Initiate (Passions)... Just... No!!!

FMI isnt actually overpowered, its just positively absurd.

Technically, due to poor editing, Battle Blessing is actually one of the most extremely powerful feats, on the level of Natural spell. Its only the fact that its locked to the paladin that keeps it by any measure in line.

Holy Star only gets out of hand if Intensify and Energy Admixture are applied to it, and there are much better uses for +11-+19 spelllevels. at theoretical max, 480 damage/round isnt bad for such but by the point we are talking about being well into epic levels and being able to cast "I win" the epic level spell

[Necroticplague]

Technically, due to poor editing, Battle Blessing is actually one of the most extremely powerful feats, on the level of Natural spell. Its only the fact that its locked to the paladin that keeps it by any measure in line.

And it's about as necessary, since it deals with that "can't fight and cast at the same time" issue.

[toapat]

And it's about as necessary, since it deals with that "can't fight and cast at the same time" issue.

sure but that isnt the definition of overpowered. Battleblessing, is, in abstraction, ridiculously strong, Its only that paladin in 3rd was designed before the mechanics needed to make paladin good were published. Give Sorcerer Battleblessing without the limitation of Paladin spells (a term that "technically" is undefined) and they get to cast a basic spell and a metamagic'd spell per round and move

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Kingdoms of Kalamar was never updated to 3.5, so any material from that setting (if allowed at all in a non-KoK D&D game) is subject to DM adjustment.

Actually, there IS an official 3.5 update to the feats (http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG5_feats.pdf) that book contained, as well as an update to the classes (http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG2_classes.pdf). Irresistible Spell isn't mentioned in the feat update document, so it's legit as-printed for 3.5 D&D games.

[Void Bovine]

I agree with natural spell and with arcane arcane hierophant it just gets worse...

[Anthrowhale]

That doesn't really do anything useful, since the spell prepared using anyspell still takes up a domain slot.

Huh, I think that's technically correct and plausibly a RAI/RAW conflict.

[Curmudgeon]

I had thought, being about high-level Cloistered Clerics, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) went without saying. Apparently I assumed too much.

This doesn't really make you a good blaster though. Consistent yes ... but good? 10d6 are nothing I'd call good unless metamagiced to the stars (and even then other spells /powers do it better).
With Divine Power you've got full BAB. Holy Star's Fire Bolt is a ranged touch attack, so you'll hit most of the time. But the best part is that the attack uses your attack bonus, allowing 3-4 iterative attacks (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10, BAB-15 starting at level 16) each round. It's a standard action to cast, but your actions to use Fire Bolt.

This attack uses your attack bonus and deals fire damage equal to 1d6 points per two caster levels (maximum 10d6).

Holy Star only gets out of hand if Intensify and Energy Admixture are applied to it, and there are much better uses for +11-+19 spelllevels. at theoretical max, 480 damage/round isnt bad for such but by the point we are talking about being well into epic levels and being able to cast "I win" the epic level spell
If 3x 10d6 each round isn't enough, you can always burn some Incense of Meditation while meditating and preparing your spells, for the maximum 60 damage each Fire Bolt. That's 180 damage per round — at level 13, which is way below the minimum level of 27 for Intensify Spell. Level 13 or so is where blasting can still be effective, and also fun. At level 16 you get an extra Fire Bolt per round, which makes blasting still fun. And after persisting Divine Power and Holy Star you've got about 95% of your daily Cleric spells still available. You make use of Holy Star's +10 circumstance bonus to AC all the time (except on your turn when you're blasting with Fire Bolt, then you switch the Protection back on before your turn ends). You've got both defense and offense covered fairly well with just two spells, leaving more spells than the usual Cleric has left after taking care of the basics. And more spells available = more versatility. You can afford to prepare more swift and immediate action spells than usual, and you can cast them while still using Holy Star.

[Feint's End]

I think it's +6 with the updated version but I see your point now. Also at level 13 you are looking at 3 times 6d6 which sums up to an average of 63 which is pretty low for that level (albeit you can add metamagic).

I still don't think it beats a decently optimised mailman but it's still a cool idea. Thanks for clarifying.

[Curmudgeon]

I think it's +6 with the updated version
No, that's only the Cleric 7 Holy Star spell, not the Initiate of Mystra 7 spell granted as a benefit of the Initiate of Mystra feat. Spell Compendium doesn't do anything to alter the feat — which is the whole point of this discussion, right?

but I see your point now. Also at level 13 you are looking at 3 times 6d6 ...
You've only got to get the CL up at casting time, because that determines all the effects thereafter (24 hours with Persistent Spell). Purification domain adds +1 CL for Abjuration spells, which is of course handy for Antimagic Field and the associated IoM caster level checks. An Orange Ioun Stone adds +1 CL. A Bead of Karma from a Strand of Prayer Beads adds +4 CL. If you have an Ankh of Ascension and you sacrifice a prepared spell you get +4 CL. You can get your caster level for Holy Star up to 20+ at level 13 — and if you're intending to be blasting, you should get there or come close. (I'd probably skip the Ankh of Ascension and be at CL 19 @ 13, then CL 20 for maximum blasting potency one level later. I'd rather not sacrifice a level 7 spell just for that last +1d6.)

[The Viscount]

In the interests of saying something different, I'll say Circle Magic. Obviously it requires multiple people but it can get dangerous fast.

[toapat]

I had thought, being about high-level Cloistered Clerics, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) went without saying. Apparently I assumed too much.

With Divine Power you've got full BAB. Holy Star's Fire Bolt is a ranged touch attack, so you'll hit most of the time. But the best part is that the attack uses your attack bonus, allowing 3-4 iterative attacks (BAB, BAB-5, BAB-10, BAB-15 starting at level 16) each round. It's a standard action to cast, but your actions to use Fire Bolt.


If 3x 10d6 each round isn't enough, you can always burn some Incense of Meditation while meditating and preparing your spells, for the maximum 60 damage each Fire Bolt. That's 180 damage per round — at level 13, which is way below the minimum level of 27 for Intensify Spell. Level 13 or so is where blasting can still be effective, and also fun. At level 16 you get an extra Fire Bolt per round, which makes blasting still fun. And after persisting Divine Power and Holy Star you've got about 95% of your daily Cleric spells still available. You make use of Holy Star's +10 circumstance bonus to AC all the time (except on your turn when you're blasting with Fire Bolt, then you switch the Protection back on before your turn ends). You've got both defense and offense covered fairly well with just two spells, leaving more spells than the usual Cleric has left after taking care of the basics. And more spells available = more versatility. You can afford to prepare more swift and immediate action spells than usual, and you can cast them while still using Holy Star.

You cant persist Holy Star, it has the (D) shorthand in duration which is explicitly illegal for persist.

you are conflating poor wording with mechanics, the firebolt is using the cleric's ranged attack bonus to determine to hit, not a weapon attack. the only way to make the spell good is extend + intensify + Energy Admixture to push it to 600 damage/round and even then that is not a good use of the spell levels

[Grooke]

Actually, there IS an official 3.5 update to the feats (http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG5_feats.pdf) that book contained, as well as an update to the classes (http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/KPG2_classes.pdf). Irresistible Spell isn't mentioned in the feat update document, so it's legit as-printed for 3.5 D&D games.

Additionally, there is Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands which is the 3.5 Kalamar reference book. However both books are 3rd party (Kenzer & Co). Saying the errata wasn't "official" is nonsensical.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Most have already been mentioned, but no love for psionics. So i'll throw Linked Power and Metamorphic Transfer into the ring.


In the interests of saying something different, I'll say Circle Magic. Obviously it requires multiple people but it can get dangerous fast.
That's what Simulacrum/Ice Assassin are for. The CL boost is bad enough, but the real breaker is the free heighten to level 20. Because a basically free +11-18 to spell DCs is a lot more dangerous on most spells than the CL boost.

[Curmudgeon]

You cant persist Holy Star, it has the (D) shorthand in duration which is explicitly illegal for persist.
You appear to be confusing discharged with dismissable.
Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this feat, nor can spells whose effects are discharged.

Discharge
Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged.

(D) Dismissible
If the Duration line ends with "(D)," you can dismiss the spell at will.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Additionally, there is Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands which is the 3.5 Kalamar reference book. However both books are 3rd party (Kenzer & Co). Saying the errata wasn't "official" is nonsensical.

The Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide has the official D&D logo on the cover, making it usable in any D&D game. DMG page 4 indicates that 3.5 is not a new system, and that 3.0 material is still perfectly usable in 3.5 games with minimal updates, such as the official update I linked.

The Player's Guide to the Sovereign Lands does not have the official D&D logo on the cover, it's not necessarily usable in any non-Kalamar games. If you're playing a non-Kalamar D&D game, the 3.0 version is what you use.

Reference:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515TE5WKD7L._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpghttp://static.lulu.com/browse/product_thumbnail.php?productId=724761&resolution=320

[Sith_Happens]

Linked Power

Seriously, there is no way in which this feat is not broken and massively overpowered. At the very least it's a slightly worse Quicken Power with no power point surcharge.

[lsfreak]

Seriously, there is no way in which this feat is not broken and massively overpowered. At the very least it's a slightly worse Quicken Power with no power point surcharge.

As a counterpoint, Linked Power Synchronicity - normally reserved for the extreme ends of PO - is one of two ways of building a competent counterspeller.

[Kraken]

Out of curiosity, what are the downsides to banning KoK material? Setting aside its publication status, is there really anything in there that's worth shedding a tear over?

[atemu1234]

Out of curiosity, what are the downsides to banning KoK material? Setting aside its publication status, is there really anything in there that's worth shedding a tear over?

Irresistible spell is worth many a mortal tear.

[SinsI]

Craft Wondrous Item - Double your WBL.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As a counterpoint, Linked Power Synchronicity - normally reserved for the extreme ends of PO - is one of two ways of building a competent counterspeller.

Normal counterspelling sucks. That doesn't make Linked Power Synchronicity reasonable. It just means that it's so good it can make even counterspelling a worthwhile pursuit.
The proper thing to do would be fixing counterspell (or making Divine Defiance usable by arcane casters), not using one broken option to fix another one.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Out of curiosity, what are the downsides to banning KoK material? Setting aside its publication status, is there really anything in there that's worth shedding a tear over?

As was stated Irresistible Spell is brutal; Miser with Magic also gives any spell starved caster a bunch of oomph, especially at lower levels. There are aslo the 2000 gp items that add +1 to the save DC of all Arcane or Divine spells, as appropriate. There is also the artifact that let's you summon ghosts, with a chance of producing PC ghosts of up to 18th level (although it will mostly grab 10th and 11th when it grabs PCs). Otherwise most of the content is poorly written, but not offensive.

[Oko and Qailee]

Some pretty strong feats:
Craft Contingent Spell
Leadership and variants of it
Versatile Spellcaster
Divine Metamagic
Natural Spell

[Grod_The_Giant]

As was stated Irresistible Spell is brutal; Miser with Magic also gives any spell starved caster a bunch of oomph, especially at lower levels. There are aslo the 2000 gp items that add +1 to the save DC of all Arcane or Divine spells, as appropriate. There is also the artifact that let's you summon ghosts, with a chance of producing PC ghosts of up to 18th level (although it will mostly grab 10th and 11th when it grabs PCs). Otherwise most of the content is poorly written, but not offensive.
So, you know, pretty par for the course for D&D sourcebooks?

[Kraken]

Irresistible spell is worth many a mortal tear.


As was stated Irresistible Spell is brutal; Miser with Magic also gives any spell starved caster a bunch of oomph, especially at lower levels. There are aslo the 2000 gp items that add +1 to the save DC of all Arcane or Divine spells, as appropriate. There is also the artifact that let's you summon ghosts, with a chance of producing PC ghosts of up to 18th level (although it will mostly grab 10th and 11th when it grabs PCs). Otherwise most of the content is poorly written, but not offensive.

That's my exact point. It's hard for me to imagine any of this crap being accepted at a real table, regardless of whether it's first party. Dragonlance Campaign Setting is another book whose status is often thrown into question, and while banning it gets rid of arguments about reserves of strength, there's some actual decent mid-op material in there - including an ECL 0 minotaur race. If the only things worthwhile in KoK are the stupid caster toys you always hear about, then I'm glad they're typically not taken seriously as sources.

[sleepyphoenixx]

That's my exact point. It's hard for me to imagine any of this crap being accepted at a real table, regardless of whether it's first party. Dragonlance Campaign Setting is another book whose status is often thrown into question, and while banning it gets rid of arguments about reserves of strength, there's some actual decent mid-op material in there - including an ECL 0 minotaur race. If the only things worthwhile in KoK are the stupid caster toys you always hear about, then I'm glad they're typically not taken seriously as sources.

Miser with Magic isn't actually that overpowered. It grants you spell levels equal to your casting modifier. Since it requires level 7 that ends up as 1-2 extra spells of your highest level pretty consistently, or a bunch of lower level spells. All it adds over Extra Slot is a bit of flexibility, which isn't a bad thing imo since nobody ever takes extra slot.

Irresistible Spell isn't any more overpowered than Incantatrix or DMM. Probably less, since it only affects one spell instead of all encounters in a day. So it's not like the generally accepted books don't have similar outliers.

The book is really no worse than FR or Eberron books, mechanics wise. There's a few nice options there, some overpowered stuff and some crap. Same as usual.

[SinsI]

Feats that modify types of spells and add additional effects are absolutely broken.
So, Snowcasting (Frostburn), Flash Frost (PHB II), Born of Three Thunders(Complete Arcane), Explosive Spell (Complete Arcane),
Fell Drain(Libris Mortis).


Craft Contingent Spell
Only "broken" in TO games, otherwise it is weak due to ease of dispel and extremely long crafting time.