what level should a solo npc be if built by pc rules?

[RealCheese]

Long story short;
5 (sometimes 6) 3rd level characters. I want to challenge but not kill them. The npc will have warlock levels and, depending on his level, perhaps a few rogue levels. So what do you think would be an appropriate level?
edit: I'm aware of the npc building rules in the dmg. Not gonna use them for this.
Also I'll be using the standard array for stats.

[Giant2005]

Using 5 level 3s and a "Hard difficulty", a single enemy should be level 10.

[Flashy]

Using 5 level 3s and a "Hard difficulty", a single enemy should be level 10.

And it'll probably still get stomped through the floor in the first two rounds, maybe killing a few people in the process.

The problem with this is two-fold. The action economy will likely work overwhelmingly to the player's advantage and player classes aren't built for this kind of situation.

A 10th level warlock with a +1 con would have a little less than sixty hit points, the same number as a CR 5 hobgoblin warlord (which also has 20 AC). The only reason the warlock is rated as a challenging encounter for a party this size is because it's also running around with two fifth level spell slots. Those fifth level spell slots spell probable death for anyone they're cast on. Either the warlock wins initiative and instagibs someone (or casts armor of agathys for probably lethal damage any time someone hits it in melee) or it loses initiative and the party of five pound it furiously into oblivion.

Don't do solo enemies with parties this big, they are a risky idea.

[themaque]

And it'll probably still get stomped through the floor in the first two rounds, maybe killing a few people in the process.
-snip-
Don't do solo enemies with parties this big, they are a risky idea.

I agree with this initial observation and reasons but not the final conclusion.

In this situation, I think taking a note from 4e would be good and how they handled Solo monsters. Simular to Legendary or Lair actions, it allowed a single monster to be a threat to a larger party.

I don't think a single PC class NPC would work, but a crafter NPC using Legendary actions could.

[Nicrosil]

As someone who isn't familiar with 4e, how did they handle Solo's? I'm running into a similar problem with my group.

[archaeo]

what do you think would be an appropriate level?

I'd recommend a couple of things:

First, eyeball a reasonable CR using the quick stat table on page 274 of the DMG. This will give you a target to shoot for with the NPC's various stats and whatnot.

Next, with that many players, a single NPC will indeed get crushed. Have you considered a slant Chain Pact Warlock? You could probably beef up a pet and have two cool bad guys at once, both a little weaker but given some strength by virtue of numbers. Or you could homebrew a Warlock invocation that summons bros for your NPC, and if you plan on dropping that summon early in the fight, you could just add the monsters into the XP calculation.

If you do just a single enemy, consider brewing up some legendary actions, flavored however you like. That'll even the playing field and make it feel a bit more dramatic. Otherwise, creating some lair actions by virtue of giving the place a bit more malice seems like it would go a long way as well.

[calebrus]

edit: I'm aware of the npc building rules in the dmg. Not gonna use them for this.

Then you're not going to get an answer.
Build a PC of whatever level you think would be appropriate. Then use those rules to see what his CR would be and how you need to adjust it. Then adjust it. Then compare again.
If you don't want to use those rules, then there is literally no way for you to balance the encounter, because those rules were designed with the sole intent of doing exactly what you're asking someone else to do for you.

[mephnick]

The problem is that higher CR enemies (enough to challege 6 lower enemies) can generally kill a single PC in one hit. Or they get buzzsawed by action economy. According to kobold fight club, 5 3rd level PCs should fight a level 5 monster for a hard encounter, but it would likely be a crappy fight.

It's better to use a more comparable CR enemy and give them extra actions for some reason. The system really isn't designed to use enemies built like PC's.

What I do is re-fluff a monster of the level I want and add a few class abilities so they look like that class. It's easier and more effective.

[calebrus]

Yeah, to refulff, just take any CR3 or 4 creature with a ranged attack and fluff him as a warlock. Done.
But that doesn't really create a warlock if that's what the OP wants. If he wants to do that, and still make a balanced fight, he has no way to do so without using the rules for creating a creature in the DMG, which he doesn't want to do.

[themaque]

As someone who isn't familiar with 4e, how did they handle Solo's? I'm running into a similar problem with my group.

As listed, Legendary creatures or creatures with lair actions. The problem with Solo creatures is Action Economy, they generally can't keep up with a large group of players.

So solo monsters got certain actions on the players rounds depending on the creature such as attacking and missing or whatnot.

[mephnick]

Yeah, to refulff, just take any CR3 or 4 creature with a ranged attack and fluff him as a warlock. Done.
But that doesn't really create a warlock if that's what the OP wants. If he wants to do that, and still make a balanced fight, he has no way to do so without using the rules for creating a creature in the DMG, which he doesn't want to do.

I find the table in the DMG borderline useless as well, so I see where he's coming from.

It doesn't take into account status/spell effects, movement, class abilities or anything that isn't straight damage/hp/AC/bonus.

But the main point is, the system gives you tools to provide a challenging solo fight. Don't build enemies as PCs if you want good enemies.

[calebrus]

I find the table in the DMG borderline useless as well, so I see where he's coming from.

It doesn't take into account status/spell effects, movement, class abilities or anything that isn't straight damage/hp/AC/bonus.

But the main point is, the system gives you tools to provide a challenging solo fight. Don't build enemies as PCs if you want good enemies.

I've actually found those rules quite decent, and especially if you look at the NPC section of the MM to get an idea of what kinds of abilities are a factor in the things that aren't mentioned.
If you use those NPCs as a basis for comparison and build AC/HP/damage from that base knowledge, the rules work very well.

[Flashy]

I agree with this initial observation and reasons but not the final conclusion.

In this situation, I think taking a note from 4e would be good and how they handled Solo monsters. Simular to Legendary or Lair actions, it allowed a single monster to be a threat to a larger party.

I don't think a single PC class NPC would work, but a crafter NPC using Legendary actions could.

I actually totally agree with this and should have been clearer in my original post. A highly modified version of a warlock that can act with legendary actions is a great idea.

[RealCheese]

I've been watching the discussion back and forth and I value all of the input. I decided that a rogue/warrior hybrid would fit what the PC's know of the NPC as well and will have less instagib ability while still providing a fun challenging fight (especially if I spread his attacks out instead of focusing one of them) with Battle master maneuvers and such.
Thanks for the discussion guys!

Edit: Oh and he's gonna be battlemaster 6/thief 4. If the fight seems too hard or too easy I will likely fudge his hitpoints on the fly.

[RealCheese]

So the battlemaster6/thief 4 build worked well.
I could have killed a pc if I had wanted to, but that wasn't my intention but at the same time I didn't have to "dumb him down" to allow them to survive.
Maneuvers were feint, riposte and menacing attack. Made me want to roll him as an actual character, maybe with assassin instead of thief, but he was very effective.
The players walked in on him murdering their main "questgiver"/employer. The cleric rushed to heal him, provoking an attack of opportunity. I allowed him to spend a spellslot and save him, but on the npc's first turn he burned his action surge to finish off the questgiver.
I felt like it was significant reward for the heroic gesture, while he didn't save the guy like he wanted, he made the barbarian not get taken out in round one, which would have seen the battle go a lot different.
Feint and sneak attack is great though. Wow.
I was in doubt how much experience to award them and as they were just a few encounters from level 4 and this fight turned out really hard, I have them what they needed to level.
I'm glad I didn't make him a warlock because he would have killed at least two of them, even if he did spend his first action finishing that guy.
Anyways, thanks for input playgrounders, you were a big help.