Expanding Knowledge checks

[Jenn]

Last night, as our party sailed across the great southern sea in an attempt to beat the Dread Warlock to a summoning site, I watched in horror and amusement as our barbarian (who hails from the sweltering mountains far to the east and barely bathes, let alone swims) used several knowledge nature checks to correctly identify different species of sharks, as well as interpreting wind and clouds as a coming storm. All within the rules, but slightly immersion breaking.


Has anyone ever thought about expanding the knowledge rules into subcategories? For example, Arcana can be broken down into the subschools or elements, magical beast, constructs, magical theory, etc.

This would play a little havoc with using knowledge skills for monster lore, but might greatly expand roleplaying ability as your first contact with a lost kingdom can't be solved with a Nobility roll.

Thoughts? Ideas? Anyone want to contribute some skill breakdowns?


Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:
Jenn

[Psyren]

The game has too many skills as it is - this approach effectively adds even more (as a knowledgeable character would now need Know {Arcana 1}, Know {Arcana 2}, etc) to realize their concept. I don't think this is the way to go.

But your core issue does not seem to be "there aren't enough skills" - that's a symptom, not a root cause. The real problem seems to be this:



This would play a little havoc with using knowledge skills for monster lore, but might greatly expand roleplaying ability as your first contact with a lost kingdom can't be solved with a Nobility roll.

The question it seems you really need to be asking is "what exactly does a successful knowledge roll get the player?" Well, the RAW answer is that a successful knowledge check lets you answer questions about a specific topic. But which questions Knowledge can answer are still up to the GM - some can be solved right away, some only be answered after discovering/learning more of the plot, and some can remain unanswerable mysteries of the setting, at the GM's discretion. A successful knowledge check, even an unbelievably high one, does not mean "I know everything." For example, no cleric in Golarion, regardless of History or Religion modifier, knows what happened to Aroden and why. Even the deities don't know, save for Pharasma, and she is keeping her lips sealed.

Also, I will add that the dumb barbarian stereotype is just that, a stereotype. If the other player's barbarian is knowledgeable on certain subjects - particularly outdoorsy subjects like Knowledge (Nature) - I don't see that as being immersion-breaking. Perhaps his tribe (or just he himself, if he was a loner) spent a great deal of time along the coast, or perhaps he was the hired muscle on a trading vessel - either way, picking up a lot of info on winds, waves and sea creatures would not be far-fetched if that is his concept.

[Jenn]

The game has too many skills as it is - this approach effectively adds even more (as a knowledgeable character would now need Know {Arcana 1}, Know {Arcana 2}, etc) to realize their concept. I don't think this is the way to go.

I completely understand what you mean by this, but I disagree that it's a problem. Maybe we value certain facets of the game differently, but the ability to further tailor a character's areas of expertise appeals to me. What's more interesting (or believable?) level 1 wizard who puts 1 rank into Know: Nature and is simultaneously a botanist, herbalist, mycologist, zoologist, herpetologist, ichthyologist, ornithologist, entomologist, and meteorologist of moderate skill, or a level 1 wizard who has to pick one?

In fact, the whole issue with our barbarian (a tracker and guide of considerable skill) is what started this- he gets the same bonus with animals he is familiar with as with those he doesn't. Is that bad or lazy GMing? Maybe, but she's a terrific one that I'm more inclined to think that it's a consequence of using a poor tool to accomplish the task.

I guess I've already sold myself on the idea- I'm less interested in being talked out of trying it as I am in being helped flesh it out and make it work.

Jenn :smallsmile:

PS, if you reread the OP, it was mentioned that our particular barb has no affinity for the ocean whatsoever- which is a stereotype, but at least was an accurate stereotype for the character as he was being played.

[Red Fel]

PS, if you reread the OP, it was mentioned that our particular barb has no affinity for the ocean whatsoever- which is a stereotype, but at least was an accurate stereotype for the character as he was being played.

What you're describing, if you ask me, isn't a problem with the skills, it's a problem with circumstance modifiers.

Let me explain. A character with Knowledge (nature) has studied, academically or through experience, various aspects of nature. He learns to identify certain traits or patterns of animals and plants, certain patterns of weather and features that distinguish safe camping sites and food. Some of these traits are fairly universal - for example, whether you're in the jungle, mountains, or plains, quadrupedal predators have certain common physical and behavioral features, and the structures that lend themselves to a safe campsite tend to be the same in form, if not in material. What changes are the circumstances - and it is here that you, as DM, can lean on the numbers to have them better comport to your ideas of immersion.

Let's take the instant case - the Barbarian, who "has no affinity for the ocean whatsoever", has just succeeded on a series of checks to identify sea life and weather. Now, I'll give him weather - learning to observe the clouds, the winds, and what-not, that's a fairly universal skill. It may vary slightly by environment, but once you're in a new place, the observant eye doesn't take long to understand those subtle changes. But you say his ability to keenly identify sea life bothers you.

My solution? Circumstance penalty. Neat and simple. Take one or two off the top of his dice roll, from the fact that he is unfamiliar with the animal life in the area. He may be generally familiar with things - predatory habits, the tendencies of animals when their predators approach, an ability to identify the obvious natural attacks and vulnerabilities of an animal - but since this is new stuff, he takes a very small penalty. After a certain amount of exposure, you can reduce and remove that penalty, as he becomes acclimated to sea life.

Sound fair?

[Elderand]

What you're describing, if you ask me, isn't a problem with the skills, it's a problem with circumstance modifiers.

Let me explain. A character with Knowledge (nature) has studied, academically or through experience, various aspects of nature. He learns to identify certain traits or patterns of animals and plants, certain patterns of weather and features that distinguish safe camping sites and food. Some of these traits are fairly universal - for example, whether you're in the jungle, mountains, or plains, quadrupedal predators have certain common physical and behavioral features, and the structures that lend themselves to a safe campsite tend to be the same in form, if not in material. What changes are the circumstances - and it is here that you, as DM, can lean on the numbers to have them better comport to your ideas of immersion.

Let's take the instant case - the Barbarian, who "has no affinity for the ocean whatsoever", has just succeeded on a series of checks to identify sea life and weather. Now, I'll give him weather - learning to observe the clouds, the winds, and what-not, that's a fairly universal skill. It may vary slightly by environment, but once you're in a new place, the observant eye doesn't take long to understand those subtle changes. But you say his ability to keenly identify sea life bothers you.

My solution? Circumstance penalty. Neat and simple. Take one or two off the top of his dice roll, from the fact that he is unfamiliar with the animal life in the area. He may be generally familiar with things - predatory habits, the tendencies of animals when their predators approach, an ability to identify the obvious natural attacks and vulnerabilities of an animal - but since this is new stuff, he takes a very small penalty. After a certain amount of exposure, you can reduce and remove that penalty, as he becomes acclimated to sea life.

Sound fair?

I'd say some rolls should be flat out impossible. A barbarian who sees the ocean for the first time and has never opened a book in his life and never talked to a sailor or someone who knows such things is not going to be able to identify a shark by it's scientific name.

[Psyren]

I guess I've already sold myself on the idea- I'm less interested in being talked out of trying it as I am in being helped flesh it out and make it work.


That much was obvious :smalltongue:



My solution? Circumstance penalty. Neat and simple. Take one or two off the top of his dice roll, from the fact that he is unfamiliar with the animal life in the area. He may be generally familiar with things - predatory habits, the tendencies of animals when their predators approach, an ability to identify the obvious natural attacks and vulnerabilities of an animal - but since this is new stuff, he takes a very small penalty. After a certain amount of exposure, you can reduce and remove that penalty, as he becomes acclimated to sea life.

Sound fair?


I'd say some rolls should be flat out impossible. A barbarian who sees the ocean for the first time and has never opened a book in his life and never talked to a sailor or someone who knows such things is not going to be able to identify a shark by it's scientific name.

These were more or less what I was getting at - for niche or highly specialized uses of a skill, apply a penalty, or simply disallow anything beyond the surface/rudimentary level if it doesn't make sense for that character or setting. This would include trying to identify a creature or provide info on a place that has never been seen before. "You don't determine anything further at this time" is a legitimate response to any knowledge check, whether the character in question has +10 or +100 to their check, and it doesn't require creating a boatload of new skills (and, inadvertently, penalizing anyone with less than 6+Int to throw around.)

[Feint's End]

AFAIK predicting weather isn't a knowledge nature check (as your friend assumed) but rather a survival check.

[Red Fel]

I'd say some rolls should be flat out impossible. A barbarian who sees the ocean for the first time and has never opened a book in his life and never talked to a sailor or someone who knows such things is not going to be able to identify a shark by it's scientific name.

Well, let's take this directly. Say your Barbarian has reached the ocean for the first time. He's on a boat. (Everybody look at him, 'cause he's sailin' on a boat.) He sees a creature in the water over the side. What can his knowledge of nature help him identify? Well, assuming he rolls high enough, he might be able to determine: It's moving in a predatory fashion. This creature is likely a predator. Given its size, and its predatory nature, it is likely to feed upon larger animals. Possibly people. It looks cartilaginous, despite its size, and unlikely to provide delicious meaty nourishment. Assuming he gets a good look at the skin, he may notice the scaly dermal denticles, and determine that it would be unwise to rub the shark backwards. Whether it demonstrates any obvious anatomical vulnerabilities, such as a bad eye or a tendency to list sideways while swimming.What could he not identify? What the creature is called in this or any other part of the world. What specifically it eats. How specifically it stalks its prey.
The things he can identify are all based on comparison and a general knowledge of how nature works. Predators have a style. Cartilage isn't tasty. Rubbing scaled skin can be painful. But things that are unique to the shark, that are idiomatic to this specific creature (as opposed to creatures in general) would likely be beyond him without more experience.

Note, however, that just because something is beyond his personal experience doesn't mean that it's beyond his knowledge. For example, a member of his community growing up may have once been a fisherman, and may have shared a story or two about man-eating fin-fish. Such a story might lodge in his brain, and a substantial Knowledge roll might dislodge it. Or he might have heard something in the shanty back ashore, some background tavern noise, and thought nothing of it until his subconscious put two and two together. (ProTip: 2 + 2 = Shark.) These are examples of ways that a person can become aware of something through a Knowledge check, without having any personal experience. It's much like how Bardic Knowledge works - because you are aware of a particular area of knowledge, you tend to retain information regarding that area, even if you aren't fully aware of having learned or experienced it.

[dascarletm]

Tailor the information given to fit the character.

First what sort of information does the character want?
Let's say he wants to know the vulnerabilities and defenses of the water-based animal. You describe it in such a way that when he makes a check it is related to his homeland.

"You notice the carapace of the Lobster-like creature is not unlike the Fetti-beetle from your home-land. You recall they were nigh impervious to heat, some would walk across the hot coals of your campfires unscathed. (OOC: this thing is resistant to heat)."

I mean sure, if he wants scientific names or other such things perhaps this is far-fetched, but I'm guessing the character wants more practical knowledge. Such information suits that character better anyway.

Let's say he wants to know if it is carnivorous or omnivorous, or if the animal is posing a threat.

"You notice by the size and shape of its mouth/teeth the animal appears to be carnivorous."
"The way in which it places itself between you and the coral bed reminds you of a mother mountain lion protecting its cubs."

[Elderand]

Well, let's take this directly. Say your Barbarian has reached the ocean for the first time. He's on a boat. (Everybody look at him, 'cause he's sailin' on a boat.) He sees a creature in the water over the side. What can his knowledge of nature help him identify? Well, assuming he rolls high enough, he might be able to determine: It's moving in a predatory fashion. This creature is likely a predator. Given its size, and its predatory nature, it is likely to feed upon larger animals. Possibly people. It looks cartilaginous, despite its size, and unlikely to provide delicious meaty nourishment. Assuming he gets a good look at the skin, he may notice the scaly dermal denticles, and determine that it would be unwise to rub the shark backwards. Whether it demonstrates any obvious anatomical vulnerabilities, such as a bad eye or a tendency to list sideways while swimming.What could he not identify? What the creature is called in this or any other part of the world. What specifically it eats. How specifically it stalks its prey.
The things he can identify are all based on comparison and a general knowledge of how nature works. Predators have a style. Cartilage isn't tasty. Rubbing scaled skin can be painful. But things that are unique to the shark, that are idiomatic to this specific creature (as opposed to creatures in general) would likely be beyond him without more experience.

No argument there.


Note, however, that just because something is beyond his personal experience doesn't mean that it's beyond his knowledge. For example, a member of his community growing up may have once been a fisherman, and may have shared a story or two about man-eating fin-fish. Such a story might lodge in his brain, and a substantial Knowledge roll might dislodge it. Or he might have heard something in the shanty back ashore, some background tavern noise, and thought nothing of it until his subconscious put two and two together. (ProTip: 2 + 2 = Shark.) These are examples of ways that a person can become aware of something through a Knowledge check, without having any personal experience. It's much like how Bardic Knowledge works - because you are aware of a particular area of knowledge, you tend to retain information regarding that area, even if you aren't fully aware of having learned or experienced it.

No real argument either, but I did specify it should be impossible to get such precise info if the barbarian never had contact with such second hand knowledge.

[Yanisa]

Last night, as our party sailed across the great southern sea in an attempt to beat the Dread Warlock to a summoning site, I watched in horror and amusement as our barbarian (who hails from the sweltering mountains far to the east and barely bathes, let alone swims) used several knowledge nature checks to correctly identify different species of sharks, as well as interpreting wind and clouds as a coming storm. All within the rules, but slightly immersion breaking.


Has anyone ever thought about expanding the knowledge rules into subcategories? For example, Arcana can be broken down into the subschools or elements, magical beast, constructs, magical theory, etc.

This would play a little havoc with using knowledge skills for monster lore, but might greatly expand roleplaying ability as your first contact with a lost kingdom can't be solved with a Nobility roll.

Thoughts? Ideas? Anyone want to contribute some skill breakdowns?


Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:
Jenn

I and a friend of mine once talked about the idea of specializations in skills. The idea we settled on was to allow a specialization for each rank put into a knowledge skill. The specializations were similar to your subschools. You can easily use to this idea to limit knowledges only the ones you choose per rank. You can adjust it a bit too, allow 1 subschool per 2 ranks if you to limit it. Or if 1 subschool at level 1 is too limiting you can always count the 3 in class skills as rank too.

In the end we decided against it because it was a lot of bookkeeping and we lacked a good way to define specialization. Local got really out of hand for example. :smalltongue:

[dascarletm]

On the topic of changing the how knowledge works here is an idea.

Keep skill points for classes the same and break down all the knowledge skills as you see fit. Tally up how many you now have and compare to the original.

For example there are 10 knowledge skills in pathfinder. You go about splitting them up and you get a whopping 40 new sub-sets. A class that has the mother knowledge as a class skill treats skills spawned from it as class skills.

Divide the current # of knowledge skills by the old. In this case you get 4.

1. When characters allocate skill-points they can put as many as they want into a general "knowledge." skill, up to 10xlvl.

2. For every point put in you get 4 points to spend within the subsets.