Hat of disguise limitations

[Confused Dad]

Per SRD, you cannot change your body type, but could a Warforged wearing the hat appear more human?

[Red Fel]

Sure! The Hat of Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hatofDisguise) lets you disguise yourself as per the Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm) spell. Said spell may be used to provide a +10 bonus on a Disguise (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disguise.htm) check.

Take a look at the table for the Disguise skill. Disguising yourself as a member of another race imposes a -2 penalty. Translation: You can use the Disguise skill to disguise yourself as a member of another race. Using the Hat of Disguise in this manner gives you a +8 bonus (+10 from the item's effect, -2 for disguising yourself as a member of another race). Note that divination magic may pierce the +10 bonus, but cannot pierce any mundane components to your disguise.

[defiantdan]

Per SRD, you cannot change your body type, but could a Warforged wearing the hat appear more human?

Check out disguise skill. You can appear as a different race, gender or age category. The one you are looking for is race. That is a -2 to your disguise check. The hat I believe gives you a + 10 to the check. A masterwork disguise kit can gives an additional +2. Plus your charisma modifier. The body type things is more related to being humanoid in shape and bipedal.

[EyethatBinds]

Important question, since Warforged don't have a gender, do you also get the penalty for impersonating gender in addition to race?

[Trasilor]

Per SRD, you cannot change your body type, but could a Warforged wearing the hat appear more human?

This doesn't work. Warforged and Human are not different races, they are different types. You are trying to change your type - construct (living construct) - into a different type - humanoid (human). This is not supported by either disguise skill or a hat of disguise. You can only disguise yourself to look like other constructs.

[defiantdan]

Important question, since Warforged don't have a gender, do you also get the penalty for impersonating gender in addition to race?

That's debatable. They may not have a gender by raw but as a contruct they were made like androids. They have gender like features. "male" warforged are tall and broad shouldered. Also here is a female: http://www.bossythecow.com/femaleforged.htm.

So it could be said that they have the "essence" of gender. This is fluff and comes down to DM discretion. It's a pretty metaphysical question. Was this warforged contructed to look like a humanoid male or female? does it identify differently and would wish to appear more like how it feels as a gender rather than looks. Grey territory.

[defiantdan]

This doesn't work. Warforged and Human are not different races, they are different types. You are trying to change your type - construct (living construct) - into a different type - humanoid (human). This is not supported by either disguise skill or a hat of disguise. You can only disguise yourself to look like other constructs.

There is no clearly defined term race other than how it applies to type. that or a races favored class. Most people I've seen just associate race with type. it's not changing the type it's changing your appearance to look more closely like a different type. you can apply make up and disguise yourself to look like a monsterous humanoid, an undead and lycanthrope in real life why not in D&D? It's clearly the intent of the skill. I'm a necropolitan so I use a disguise kit to appear like a living humanoid each morning.

[Trasilor]

That's debatable. They may not have a gender by raw but as a contruct they were made like androids. They have gender like features. "male" warforged are tall and broad shouldered. Also here is a female: http://www.bossythecow.com/femaleforged.htm.

So it could be said that they have the "essence" of gender. This is fluff and comes down to DM discretion. It's a pretty metaphysical question. Was this warforged contructed to look like a humanoid male or female? does it identify differently and would wish to appear more like how it feels as a gender rather than looks. Grey territory.

But you are still confusing race and type. These are two distinct things. Types are very specific (Types & Subtypes). Look at spells such as disguise self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseSelf.htm), alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) and polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm). They clearly state that changing a race and changing a type are two different things.

All I am saying that RAW does not support the that hat of disguise in changing your type.

[Red Fel]

Important question, since Warforged don't have a gender, do you also get the penalty for impersonating gender in addition to race?

That's debatable.

I agree that it's debatable, but I would actually impose the "impersonating a gender" penalty as well, in part because Warforged are so different, and in part because gender - a person's handling of his or her own gender as it contributes to his or her appearance and behavior - is a part of the disguise. Even if you could debate physical gender, Warforged have no gender identity; they may be academically aware of gender, but it's not experiential familiarity. When trying to disguise yourself as a person who has experienced gender throughout his or her life, who has developed an appearance centered around his or her gender, the disguise is more than merely cosmetic. It must also embrace behaviors. If you disguise yourself as a highly attractive man or woman, and still move around woodenly (as opposed to someone who, aware of his or her appearance, takes steps to either showcase or conceal it), spectators will see something askew to your disguise. The disguise must be comprehensive, so I'd impose the second penalty as well.


This doesn't work. Warforged and Human are not different races, they are different types. You are trying to change your type - construct (living construct) - into a different type - humanoid (human). This is not supported by either disguise skill or a hat of disguise. You can only disguise yourself to look like other constructs.

You're not altering your type. Neither the Hat of Disguise, nor the Disguise Self spell, nor the Disguise skill, does that. You are disguising your physical appearance to appear to be something - or someone - you're not. This isn't Alter Self, which is a transmutation that changes you into another being of the same type; this is Disguise and Disguise Self, which are cosmetic and illusory in nature.

[Trasilor]

There is no clearly defined term race other than how it applies to type. that or a races favored class. Most people I've seen just associate race with type. it's not changing the type it's changing your appearance to look more closely like a different type. you can apply make up and disguise yourself to look like a monsterous humanoid, an undead and lycanthrope in real life why not in D&D? It's clearly the intent of the skill. I'm a necropolitan so I use a disguise kit to appear like a living humanoid each morning.

One should never equate the real world to D&D :smalltongue:

If you are a necropolitan using disguise to appear as a living humanoid, then your DM is houseruling that Undead and Human are simply two different races (or at least necropolitan and living humanoid). The reason might be that the description has them look reasonably similar to humanoids. (this also allows the DM to disguise a vampire as a human). But that is in the realm of DM adjudication not RAW.

[Confused Dad]

Wow, quite the debate!

Would setting make a difference? I.E. The GM had players create very different characters from different settings. For example, besides the Eberron Warforged, there is a Kender from Greyhawk, a 2nd ed wizard, someone from Faerun, Ravenloft, and a number of other settings--even drow from underdark. All were transported against their will to an unknown setting where they are beset by undead of all sorts.

The Warforged wants to use the Hat of Disguise to appear less threatening to some of the more timid PCs in order to get along.

On a different note, are there any races that give +4 (or more) INT bonus without massive LA or RHD?

[Lord Vukodlak]

One should never equate the real world to D&D :smalltongue:

If you are a necropolitan using disguise to appear as a living humanoid, then your DM is houseruling that Undead and Human are simply two different races (or at least necropolitan and living humanoid). The reason might be that the description has them look reasonably similar to humanoids. (this also allows the DM to disguise a vampire as a human). But that is in the realm of DM adjudication not RAW.
You're confusing "creature type" with "body type." The spell doesn't say type or creature type. It says "body type" which is entirely different.

You cannot change your body type. For example, a human caster could look human, humanoid, or like any other human-shaped bipedal creature.
Sometimes it helps to look at the physical book instead of just the SRD.

—Thread

[Trasilor]

I agree that it's debatable, but I would actually impose the "impersonating a gender" penalty as well, in part because Warforged are so different, and in part because gender - a person's handling of his or her own gender as it contributes to his or her appearance and behavior - is a part of the disguise. Even if you could debate physical gender, Warforged have no gender identity; they may be academically aware of gender, but it's not experiential familiarity. When trying to disguise yourself as a person who has experienced gender throughout his or her life, who has developed an appearance centered around his or her gender, the disguise is more than merely cosmetic. It must also embrace behaviors. If you disguise yourself as a highly attractive man or woman, and still move around woodenly (as opposed to someone who, aware of his or her appearance, takes steps to either showcase or conceal it), spectators will see something askew to your disguise. The disguise must be comprehensive, so I'd impose the second penalty as well.



You're not altering your type. Neither the Hat of Disguise, nor the Disguise Self spell, nor the Disguise skill, does that. You are disguising your physical appearance to appear to be something - or someone - you're not. This isn't Alter Self, which is a transmutation that changes you into another being of the same type; this is Disguise and Disguise Self, which are cosmetic and illusory in nature.

Disguise self clearly states you cannot change body type - I have always seen this mean Type. Disguise skill does not allow you to change your type. Note skills list what you can do not what you cannot. My contention is Race =/= Type. If your campaign does, then it is a house rule. If there is a rule that says Race = Type please site it, and I will concede the point.

[Trasilor]

You're confusing "creature type" with "body type." The spell doesn't say type or creature type. It says "body type" which is entirely different.

Sometimes it helps to look at the physical book instead of just the SRD.

—Thread

Fine, I concede the point.

[Maglubiyet]

I follow everyone's logic here, but I'm still having a hard time with the idea of a warforged passing as human. From a distance or in the shadows? Sure.

But the human face is extremely expressive, controlled by a couple dozen muscles, very vascular, to say nothing of the eyes. We're programmed to notice even small deviations. A warforged's face is little better than a mannequin or marionette, with none of the underlying musculature or blood vessels. Even the best disguise is probably going to be just a motionless molded face. But, hey, it's fantasy!

This reminds me of Kyle Reese in the original Terminator movie talking about the robot infiltrators: "The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy..." Maybe the warforged should encase himself in living tissue.

[Elderand]

I follow everyone's logic here, but I'm still having a hard time with the idea of a warforged passing as human. From a distance or in the shadows? Sure.

But the human face is extremely expressive, controlled by a couple dozen muscles, very vascular, to say nothing of the eyes. We're programmed to notice even small deviations. A warforged's face is little better than a mannequin or marionette, with none of the underlying musculature or blood vessels. Even the best disguise is probably going to be just a motionless molded face. But, hey, it's fantasy!

This reminds me of Kyle Reese in the original Terminator movie talking about the robot infiltrators: "The 600 series had rubber skin. We spotted them easy..." Maybe the warforged should encase himself in living tissue.

But it's not a mundane disguise in this case, it's a hat of disguise. IE it's a magic illusion.

[Maglubiyet]

But it's not a mundane disguise in this case, it's a hat of disguise. IE it's a magic illusion.

I can get on board with that.

I still think it's funny, the thought of a warforged walking around with a rubber mask, thinking he's fooling everyone.

[Karl Aegis]

On a related note: Is a cheetah's body type close enough to a leopard that one can disguise a cheetah as a leopard? How about a bobcat and a tiger? They're in the same family, but they have different genus and their differences make the ruling questionable.

[atemu1234]

I can get on board with that.

I still think it's funny, the thought of a warforged walking around with a rubber mask, thinking he's fooling everyone.

Now I want to make one named Ahnald.

[Spore]

Now I want to make one named Ahnald.

"I need your clothes and your steed."