Races - Why?

[Fwiffo86]

So I thought I would pose a question. What is the point of the various races? Leaving behind the mechanical aspect of them entirely, does anyone even bother with the cultural differences between them? Do you care beyond the mathematical bonuses they give?

I ask only because I was thinking of the days when Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were classes, and thus you had a reason for selecting them instead of a Fighter or Wizard or Thief.

It may be the impression I get from the forums here, but it seems to me that races are nothing more than packages to most players. And if that is indeed the case, how far have we all fallen because of it?

[Yora]

Races are all about roleplaying.

Which classes actually used to be too... :smallannoyed:

[themaque]

I think you will find people on forums talking more about stats and builds more than role playing. Numbers are easy to quantify and compare while Racial differences will change from game to game.

Shawn's dwarves have a Scottish bent in his world, while in mine they are more Russian.
Bill has his elves based on Gaelic cultures while I prefer a more native American culture.
I allow for Kender while Bobby has it legal to hunt them for sport.

Yes, there are plenty of role players to optimizers online but to show off they need to write a short story but in order to understand THAT you need to read this short Novella explaining his game world. while the optimizer just needs to show his stats. Lots of room for personal tastes and differences. Numbers are easy to compare online.

[JFahy]

It may be the impression I get from the forums here, but it seems to me that races are nothing more than packages to most players. And if that is indeed the case, how far have we all fallen because of it?

I definitely get the same impression when I'm on the internet, but the internet is extremely good at collecting and concentrating badness. I tell myself that in the real world, people are better. :smallsmile:

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It may be the impression I get from the forums here, but it seems to me that races are nothing more than packages to most players. And if that is indeed the case, how far have we all fallen because of it?

You see this a lot with newer players, and also a lot on the forums, where people are (usually) looking for help with a build.

That said, for many of us race is something to be actively considered in the world, in the character, in the backstory, and in the portrayal of the character at the gaming table. You just see a lot more "help me with my Druid build" thread than you do "help me figure out how a Gnomish child adopted by a human mortuary worker fits into both the Gnome and Human worlds, and then how her respectful and careful practice of the Necromantic arts positions her in both societies" threads (the latter is, by the way, a favorite character of mine). :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

So I thought I would pose a question. What is the point of the various races? Leaving behind the mechanical aspect of them entirely, does anyone even bother with the cultural differences between them? Do you care beyond the mathematical bonuses they give?

I ask only because I was thinking of the days when Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were classes, and thus you had a reason for selecting them instead of a Fighter or Wizard or Thief.

It may be the impression I get from the forums here, but it seems to me that races are nothing more than packages to most players. And if that is indeed the case, how far have we all fallen because of it?

The point of the various races is that Tolkien had most of them, so they're necessary for Tolkien knock-offs. That includes the cultural differences. Personally, I generally just don't use them for most things, as most settings don't particularly need them - or I'll use the mathematical bonuses and push them over onto a non-Tolkien ripoff when making a setting that actually does have multiple species.

As for "how far we have all fallen", how about not at all? Putting the races as classes doesn't emphasize their cultures in any way, what it does is homogenizes their capabilities. There was just as much playing with them from a purely mechanical standpoint then as there was now.

[Falcon X]

I get what you mean. Many inexperienced players I know forget that they are playing an elf or a halfling the moment they start playing.

However, the races are very distinct in many ways and if you get good players, or a good DM, it means all the difference in the world what race you play.

Here's how I describe it, in it's core nature, to my players:
Humans - are like you or me. They can become anything, and other races view them as fast-paced and ambitious.
Elves - Are chaotic by their very nature and society. They just don't "get" how the rest of the world works. In lore, they are traditionally descended from the fae, which opens up a whole bag of flavor.
Dwarves - Are lawful by nature and society. Their minds categorize things quickly and can more firmly define the emotions they feel about things.
Halflings - Are stable. They "know where their home is", and know what they hold on to when the going gets tough.
Half-bloods - Have it rough. Imagine if everytime you walked into public, you felt that people where judging you based on your birth. The natural path is to either lash back, or prove them wrong.

Of course, it gets more complex than that. Each campaign setting has a different society, and subraces, and interaction between races, and alliances. So, while in Forgotten Realms, half-elves are commonplace, in another setting, they may be as scary to people as orcs.

My favorite book to understand the mindset of a naturally chaotic culture like elves was reading Suzanne Clarke's novel "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell", and draw attributes of the faeries into my elves.

[Myzz]

I've read somewhere on these forums, someone posting that they did away with all the +'s for each race and everyone picks a race based on RP flavor... everyone gets an ASI or Feat (or one of each, not sure) plus 2 from skills, tools, or languages...

[randomodo]

I allow for Kender while Bobby has it legal to hunt them for sport.
.

I'm a big fan of allowing for it to be legal to hunt Kender for sport. Or just to eradicate the pests as a public service.

[Bubzors]

Every game I've played in or DM'ed race is extremely important. In our current campaign elves have a kind of dragon Age second class citizen thing going. All people of nobility automatically distrust you or look down upon you with disdain if you are an elf. Makes it difficult to move up in the world.

Sometimes areas or places are barred off to you on the basis of race alone. Or you attract more attention when you are the only half-orc barbarian wearing a loincloth in the city.

[Boci]

It may be the impression I get from the forums here, but it seems to me that races are nothing more than packages to most players. And if that is indeed the case, how far have we all fallen because of it?

Arguable, not at all. If my character concept is "Child of a single parent, obsessed with knowledge, particularly the way it relates to death. Has a tattoo of the bones on his right arm, but is starting to regret it as he feels this was from a time when he was focused too much on the physical aspect of death. He is now trying to refocus on the mental and spiritual aspects. Despite this obsession he is not eager to cause it, trying peaceful solutions first, but he is no pacifist. He is shy and not leader material, but will make his opinion known in a group, and believes teamwork is key, especially for adventurers".

That is my character concept regardless of whether I am a human, elf, dwarf or farplane half shadow dragon. So if my character concept is rp-able largly independant of race, why shouldn't I choose race based on mechanics?

[Myzz]

in a diff thread I wrote a break down for each race with their abilities listed very generically. Here it is:


Hill Dwarf: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, 5ft spd reduction, Specific Save Advantage (with resistance for damage), Specific Weapons, Tool Prof, Specific Knowledge skill expertise, language, 1 bonus hp per level (feat?)

Mountain Dwarf: +2 +2, 60 ft Darkvision, 5ft spd reduction, Specific Save Advantage (with resistance for damage), Specific Weapons, Tool Prof, Specific Knowledge skill expertise, language, Light and Medium Armor (Feat?)

High Elf: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Skill Prof, Specific Save Advantage (specific non dmg immunity), ½ sleep time, Specific Weapons, Language, Cantrip

Wood Elf: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Skill Prof, Specific Save Advantage (specific non dmg immunity), ½ sleep time, Specific Weapons, Language, +5 ft spd, Specific Skill bonus

Drow Elf: +2 +1, 120 ft Darkvision, Skill Prof, Specific Save Advantage (specific non dmg immunity), ½ sleep time, Specific Weapons, Language, Magic Initiate Feat (sort of), Sunlight Sensitivity

Lightfoot Halfling: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Skill Prof, Specific Save Advantage, Language, 5 ft spd reduction, reroll 1’s, Move through, Specific Skill bonus

Stout Halfling: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Skill Prof, Specific Save Advantage, Language, 5 ft spd reduction, reroll 1’s, Move through, Specific Save Advantage (with resistance for damage)

Dragonborn: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, Damage Resistance (specific element), Scaling Breath Weapon (same element)

Forest Gnome: +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, 5 ft spd reduction, Specific Save Advantages (3), Cantrip, at will L1 spell

Rock Gnome: : +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, 5 ft spd reduction, Specific Save Advantages (3), Specific Knowledge Skill, Tinker

Half Elf: : +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, Specific Save Advantage (specific non dmg immunity), 2 Skill Profs, 2 languages

Half Orc: : +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, Skill Prof, Not Die (1/LR), Extra Dmg on crits

Tiefling: : +2 +1, 60 ft Darkvision, Language, Damage Resistance (specific element), Magic Initiate Feat (sort of)

Human: +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1, Language

Vhuman: +1 +1, Skill Prof, Feat


if you wanted to I suppose you could just offer every starting character option packages regardless of race... or create some point buy system or... maybe give all Non-Humans Darkvision, and their native language. Then give humans a choice of 2 from Skill Prof, Tool, or Language (not to exceed 1 of any type). Then give everyone +2 +1, choice of 1 bonus, then allow negatives like move spd or light sensitivity or something you come up with, to allow another 1 bonus...

[Arc-Royal]

a whole bag of flavor.

I misread this as "a whole body bag of flavor" (I have no idea why), which sounds like the slogan for some Necromancy-school brand of snacks. Also, it's totally not suspicious that I brought this up. *shifty eyes*

[Ralanr]

Sometimes people take the whole "Play what you are not" to the logical extreme and choose to play a separate race. This is usually my reason for playing different races.

Personally I find the concept of multiple races fascinating. Because they are different both culturally and biologically. Elves and Dwarves live as long as multiple humans which allow them different perspectives on the world, sometimes keeping wisdom that had long since been forgotten from the rest of the world.

Haflings are a race with a similar lifespan of humans yet are much physically weaker and smaller. Despite this they're always presented as happy/optimistic (Except Belkar. But Belkar also showcases how races do not have to stick to their basic stereotypes. Which is obvious, really it depends on how you want to play).

Half-orcs combine the primal and animalistic rage and ferocity of orcs with the logical, rational, and philosophical mind of a human. There should be a lot of half-orc philosophers, seriously that sounds pretty interesting.

Then we have those newer races that represent different ideas/worldviews/connections. Tieflings and Dragonborn live with the knowledge that they have a connection to powerful beings and forces.

Granted my reasons aren't the reason why people play other races than humans. It's for their own reasons, either because they want to or because it fits their build. Sometimes people wanted to play a dragonborn that grabs peoples faces and throw them. It's fun and people will probably make races if there were only humans. You could probably look at a lot of video games with multiple races as an example.

[ChubbyRain]

Races should be complete RP with no mechanical benefits/disabilities.

If these races have been around each other for years and years then medium sized fighters will know how to fight the small races, will be specifically trained in fact, and thus their racial bonuses would be nothing. Wizards know that Elves are immune to sleep, so they don't cast sleep on the enemy elf. Everyone knows that elves has superior vision so that hiding things from elves would become the new base. If you can hide from an elf then you graduate your rogue/ranger training. Anything less and you simply are doing good enough.

Commoners know there are Rogues in the world, thus the safes and traps should get better and better too.

Maybe this is my biggest complaint of D&D, for as much history as the in game worlds have (even eberron) and for as much time as gone by in the real world... The world within D&D is stuck in time, never moving forward, never changing, and never being anything other than it has always been.

Stagnation is not something would should strive for in our fantasy games.

(kinda went off topic but the idea of races and stuff finally got me to think of the why behind all this)

[Safety Sword]

Races should be complete RP with no mechanical benefits/disabilities.

If these races have been around each other for years and years then medium sized fighters will know how to fight the small races, will be specifically trained in fact, and thus their racial bonuses would be nothing. Wizards know that Elves are immune to sleep, so they don't cast sleep on the enemy elf. Everyone knows that elves has superior vision so that hiding things from elves would become the new base. If you can hide from an elf then you graduate your rogue/ranger training. Anything less and you simply are doing good enough.

Commoners know there are Rogues in the world, thus the safes and traps should get better and better too.

Maybe this is my biggest complaint of D&D, for as much history as the in game worlds have (even eberron) and for as much time as gone by in the real world... The world within D&D is stuck in time, never moving forward, never changing, and never being anything other than it has always been.

Stagnation is not something would should strive for in our fantasy games.

(kinda went off topic but the idea of races and stuff finally got me to think of the why behind all this)

The only problem I have with your line of thinking is that you assume that the races interact often to find out this stuff.

In a world where the elves have closed their borders and rarely venture out of their forest except once a year to trade for metal by bartering their magnificently crafted wood workings and the finest steeds the world has ever seen... these racial traits are important and mysterious.

If elves are just the next suburb over in Waterdeep, then yeah, everyone knows their business. Having different racial traits allows you to choose which level of knowledge the common folk have.

[Daishain]

Races should be complete RP with no mechanical benefits/disabilities.

If these races have been around each other for years and years then medium sized fighters will know how to fight the small races, will be specifically trained in fact, and thus their racial bonuses would be nothing. Wizards know that Elves are immune to sleep, so they don't cast sleep on the enemy elf. Everyone knows that elves has superior vision so that hiding things from elves would become the new base. If you can hide from an elf then you graduate your rogue/ranger training. Anything less and you simply are doing good enough.

Commoners know there are Rogues in the world, thus the safes and traps should get better and better too.

Maybe this is my biggest complaint of D&D, for as much history as the in game worlds have (even eberron) and for as much time as gone by in the real world... The world within D&D is stuck in time, never moving forward, never changing, and never being anything other than it has always been.

Stagnation is not something would should strive for in our fantasy games.

(kinda went off topic but the idea of races and stuff finally got me to think of the why behind all this)
Being familiar with the advantages each race holds does not invalidate those differences

Take your rogue for example. While it is true that they're likely to be trained slightly harder due to the elves, that training doesn't level the playing field. If it is possible to find the rogue at all, the elf will always have an easier time of finding the rogue than others.

The only situations in which racial differences truly do not matter are if challenges are so easy everyone could do them, or so hard that no one can do them. Neither makes for a good game.

[themaque]

Maybe this is my biggest complaint of D&D, for as much history as the in game worlds have (even eberron) and for as much time as gone by in the real world... The world within D&D is stuck in time, never moving forward, never changing, and never being anything other than it has always been.

Stagnation is not something would should strive for in our fantasy games.


I do and do not agree. Yes we need interesting setting and variety in out fantasy. However, for the base book of THE go to guide for fantasy role playing, I think "Classic" setting and style is appropriate. You then get to go a little nuts and have fun in alternate settings.

[Lord Raziere]

Races are all about roleplaying.

Which classes actually used to be too... :smallannoyed:

Yes, I play a race specifically because I want to play that race for its fluff. I like that fluff. replacing it with just another human would be missing the point, even if to a certain point of view they aren't all that different. I don't play an orc because I want to play a barbaric human. thats nonsense. it would be like saying that because I want to play a wizard, I really just want to play an ordinary scholar who throws dynamite at people. it just takes the fantastical magical part out of it that gets me interested.

[Joe the Rat]

Why have them? It makes the world more fantastic. It's not just "other people with a different culture," but "other people with a different culture and physiology and look really weird. And are blue."

On Roleplaying: The various races have particular expectations or stereotypes attached to them, which may be played to or against as part of the character. Note that you can deliberately under-play the cultural differences, if part of what the character does is "try to fit in." A lot of times, race just ends up as another piece that makes the character. Race + Background + Class: Change one, and the characterization from the other two may not change all that much, which can be a useful tool. Eight different people, each a different class & species, all with the soldier background. Even if everything else is different, they can bond over their experiences as part of an organized military unit. Telling Sergeant stories and complaining about field rations and making fun of idiot officers is universal.

The place where I really try to play up race - as a player and as DM - is in the physical differences. People tend to notice the non-locals. Small characters have a different perspective (literally), and face challenges in a Medium sized world (and vice-versa).


it would be like saying that because I want to play a wizard, I really just want to play an ordinary scholar who throws dynamite at people. Now I want to play an ordinary scholar who throws dynamite at people. Which is different from playing a wizard.

[HoarsHalberd]

Races should be complete RP with no mechanical benefits/disabilities.

If these races have been around each other for years and years then medium sized fighters will know how to fight the small races, will be specifically trained in fact, and thus their racial bonuses would be nothing. Wizards know that Elves are immune to sleep, so they don't cast sleep on the enemy elf. Everyone knows that elves has superior vision so that hiding things from elves would become the new base. If you can hide from an elf then you graduate your rogue/ranger training. Anything less and you simply are doing good enough.

Commoners know there are Rogues in the world, thus the safes and traps should get better and better too.

Maybe this is my biggest complaint of D&D, for as much history as the in game worlds have (even eberron) and for as much time as gone by in the real world... The world within D&D is stuck in time, never moving forward, never changing, and never being anything other than it has always been.

Stagnation is not something would should strive for in our fantasy games.

(kinda went off topic but the idea of races and stuff finally got me to think of the why behind all this)

- left handers have existed for as long as humans and they still cause people to perform less effectively against them in fencing. Medium size individuals overwhelmingly train and interact with other medium size individuals in d&d.

- but sleep is an AoE spell, and if you cast it on a mixed group, the elves will still be awake. Besides this isn't an argument against racial bonuses, this is an argument against DMing enemies as idiots.

- you freely admitted elves are better. Thus if elves are the base, then everyone else needs a penalty.

- and rogues and lockpicking tools will get better and better too, to the point where the arms race will leave rogues against rich people functionally the same and against the commoners who can't afford new locks constantly, they won't even have to roll. DC 35 against a +20 lock picking set is the same as a DC 20 against a +5.

[Maxilian]

So I thought I would pose a question. What is the point of the various races? Leaving behind the mechanical aspect of them entirely, does anyone even bother with the cultural differences between them? Do you care beyond the mathematical bonuses they give?


Yes, some people do (like i do), it mostly help a lot when creating a backstory to your character also it change how the other people around you see you (RP)




I ask only because I was thinking of the days when Elf, Dwarf and Halfling were classes, and thus you had a reason for selecting them instead of a Fighter or Wizard or Thief.


Yeah, i remember those times... ewwww (it kind of forced me to play X or Y race if i wanted to play in X or Y way, now i have actual choices when creating concepts)