Finishing a Fortress

[LoyalPaladin]

Howdy everybody.
A couple weeks ago I posted about a fortress (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?400730-Build-a-Fortress) that my PC was going to be building. Well, I've officially got the go ahead from my DM and some of my party members have decided to pitch in. The DM is actually excited enough about it that he is building the next part of our campaign around it and ramping up our gold flow from the sounds of it.

Originally we were going to be a guild, but it would seem we've become more of an adventuring company. We will take on jobs big and small. That isn't to say we would let a city burn without a monetary incentive.

Anyways, on to the main part of my post. We've set up all the structural things we need to buy and have documented (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Sxkp5H7t-draGUhFGf_5xMCcdDhToLsJOgGfaHhkepc/edit?usp=sharing) their cost. Our DM is going to let us know what costs can be reduced a little later on. But we've got enough info to get started. I'm now trying to outfit this place as best possible. I need a little help deciding on a few things and maybe a few new ideas can be brewed by this thread!

Last Thread Topics:
-We've got the go ahead for Gelantinous Cubes. 5000gp as per the Arms and Equipment Guide.
-We have convinced our favorite to shopkeeper to open a branch in our fortress.
-The Otyugh was also in Arms and Equipment, so we're getting one.
-Air Ships? We're taking a Soarwhale.
-I'll have a cohort with Landlord and the ability to reduce costs for us.
-Teleportation has become a non-issue with the addition of our shopkeep.

Questions I have:
-Dragons: We're getting one. It'd be heresy not to. My question is what type of dragon should we get? I thought gold would fit best, but upon reading all of them in the Draconomicon, a bronze seems so much better fitted to us.
-Cloning and slimes: How does this work? One is spendy enough, how do I afford a moat!
-Underground security: We have a massive tunnel network under our location. What good/neutral aligned creature can we get to defend a possible underdark connection?
-Commoners: We can get a lot of them, but how do we train them. We have a place to train them, but mechanically how does this work.
-Elementals: This is sort of an after thought, but how do you work with elementals. I can't imagine walking up to one and saying "Hey Rocky, wanna come stay over at my place?"

Anyways, thanks for sticking around. It was long winded, but it needed to be done!

Fun side note: We're going to be called the Hallowed Knights and our fortress will be the Bastion of Light.

[Red Fel]

Questions I have:

And answers I have.


-Dragons: We're getting one. It'd be heresy not to. My question is what type of dragon should we get? I thought gold would fit best, but upon reading all of them in the Draconomicon, a bronze seems so much better fitted to us.

Steel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) Dragon. It prefers human form, so accommodating it space-wise should be no problem. Simply set aside a well-fortified and spacious storehouse for it to enjoy. It is usually Lawful Neutral, often Lawful Good, so it will get along great with everyone. It loves culture and art, and will likely contribute to the growth of both. (Bring back pretty things from your adventures. It will be thrilled.)


-Cloning and slimes: How does this work? One is spendy enough, how do I afford a moat!

Digging a moat is easy if you have spellcasters. (Hint: Ask the dragon for help.) Drop some oozes in, fire arrows, feed and heal, repeat.


-Underground security: We have a massive tunnel network under our location. What good/neutral aligned creature can we get to defend a possible underdark connection?

Earth Elementals are an easy choice, capable of passing through the stones. A colony of them would be quite effective. Alternatively, pick any creature you like and give it the Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) template, which adds a burrow speed.


-Commoners: We can get a lot of them, but how do we train them. We have a place to train them, but mechanically how does this work.

That's the sort of thing one handles off-camera, I find. If you have Leadership, you could theoretically use higher-level followers (or cohorts) to train lower-level ones.


-Elementals: This is sort of an after thought, but how do you work with elementals. I can't imagine walking up to one and saying "Hey Rocky, wanna come stay over at my place?"

Elementals are not complex creatures. They tend to have lower Int, but aren't mindless, and are fairly straightforward. They are, in effect, the essence of themselves. The easiest way is to conjure them from their respective planes, then negotiate with them as you would any other NPC. Note that you probably want to learn the relevant planar language if you plan to do this. Note also that you'd better have some idea of what might appeal to them. I'd suggest signing over rights to the caverns. (I.e. "If you agree to protect these tunnels from any incursion from below, we will never enter from above without your permission. These tunnels, and everything therein, shall be yours, for so long as you guard them. Should you ever require our aid, you need but ask it.")


Fun side note: We're going to be called the Hallowed Knights and our fortress will be the Bastion of Light.

How droll.

[LoyalPaladin]

And answers I have.
I was hoping you would.


Steel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a) Dragon.
That is fascinating. I've never seen that dragon before. I'm sticking that in the running when I talk with my party. I think I'll drop the gold in favor of steel and bronze.


Drop some oozes in, fire arrows, feed and heal, repeat.
While I'm usually against ooze abuse, this seems to be the best option. They can't feel anyways. Too bad there isn't a gelatinous lake.


Elementals are not complex creatures. They tend to have lower Int, but aren't mindless, and are fairly straightforward. They are, in effect, the essence of themselves. The easiest way is to conjure them from their respective planes, then negotiate with them as you would any other NPC. Note that you probably want to learn the relevant planar language if you plan to do this. Note also that you'd better have some idea of what might appeal to them. I'd suggest signing over rights to the caverns. (I.e. "If you agree to protect these tunnels from any incursion from below, we will never enter from above without your permission. These tunnels, and everything therein, shall be yours, for so long as you guard them. Should you ever require our aid, you need but ask it.")
This is definitely what I will do. It makes life easier and our fortress much scarier.

Paladin Edit:
This may be a dumb question, but I've never understood how you can summon an elemental permanently. Sort of like I've never understood what GISH stands for.


How droll.
I'm sorry, would you have preferred the Hellfire Knights that lived in the Halls of Horror?

[Ferronach]

Personally I would consider adding a bunch of animated statues throughout the complex. When a new member is recruited part of the initiation ceremony is that you get the dragon to put an invisible mark on them.

The statues will attempt to restrain or remove any people without the the mark unless they are accompanied by someone with it. Don't tell anyone about the statues.

You could look for a colony of dwarves/goblins/kobolds etc. who have been displaced in order to protect the tunnels in exchange for the use of them. The Dragon may also have a hoard of minions that he/she could bring with him/her.

Kobolds could be neat because hey utilize traps and lots of them. you could ask them to build some in the castle propper to help train your commoners :) Having a dragon will also make the Kobolds more likely to help you out... They can raise an alarm if someone enters the tunnels without permission and try to distract the bad guy until guild members arrive to deal with the problem.

I think that you could probable get away with having earth elementals in the tunnels too as the Kobols will probably get along with them (I think?).

Another way to get the elementals to help would be to strike a deal with the Lord/Lady of ______ (for example the Lord of Stone) for a host of their elementals.

[LoyalPaladin]

Personally I would consider adding a bunch of animated statues throughout the complex. When a new member is recruited part of the initiation ceremony is that you get the dragon to put an invisible mark on them.

The statues will attempt to restrain or remove any people without the the mark unless they are accompanied by someone with it. Don't tell anyone about the statues.
That... is a really cool idea.


The Dragon may also have a hoard of minions that he/she could bring with him/her.
That'd normally work, but we're getting a baby. Possibly even an egg. The earth elementals are probably our best bet. My party tends to not get along with Kobolds. I'm not sure what their issue is...


Another way to get the elementals to help would be to strike a deal with the Lord/Lady of ______ (for example the Lord of Stone) for a host of their elementals.
This intrigues me. Can you tell me where I can find the rules/fluff for the Lord of stone?

[Red Fel]

Paladin Edit:
This may be a dumb question, but I've never understood how you can summon an elemental permanently.

It depends on the resources you have at your disposal. For example, Plane Shift is a pretty straightforward method - travel to the Elemental Plane of X, ask around if anyone would like to take up residence on the Material, Plane Shift back home with your new employee.


Sort of like I've never understood what GISH stands for.

It doesn't stand for anything; it's a reference to an old Githyanki type. The Gish was a Githyanki warrior who excelled at both magical and melee combat. Hence the term.


I'm sorry, would you have preferred the Hellfire Knights that lived in the Halls of Horror?

No, I would have preferred something more pragmatic, like "Adventurers Incorporated," who live in "Hill Keep." Straightforward, none of the flourish. I find that morality gets in the way of a good for-profit enterprise.

With regard to powerful rulers of elementals, you could always take a leaf from Faerun's book. For example, Grumbar is the Lord of Stone, a TN Primordial masquerading as a god; he has many followers, at least a few of whom should be able to provide elementals for your service. He also has an interest in caverns and the Underdark, so that's something to keep in mind.

[LoyalPaladin]

It depends on the resources you have at your disposal. For example, Plane Shift is a pretty straightforward method - travel to the Elemental Plane of X, ask around if anyone would like to take up residence on the Material, Plane Shift back home with your new employee.
Ahhh. This will be good then! Our wizard specialized in Conjuration, so we'll get loads of elementals. I'm a Paladin with loads of Charisma, Diplomacy and Knowledge (Religion) are my only skills really... so that's going for us at least!


It doesn't stand for anything; it's a reference to an old Githyanki type. The Gish was a Githyanki warrior who excelled at both magical and melee combat. Hence the term.
Huh. The more you know. I'm forwarding that to a buddy of mine, we've been wondering for ages.


No, I would have preferred something more pragmatic, like "Adventurers Incorporated," who live in "Hill Keep." Straightforward, none of the flourish. I find that morality gets in the way of a good for-profit enterprise.
Ah, I see. Better to fly under the radar until the time is right?


With regard to powerful rulers of elementals, you could always take a leaf from Faerun's book. For example, Grumbar is the Lord of Stone, a TN Primordial masquerading as a god; he has many followers, at least a few of whom should be able to provide elementals for your service. He also has an interest in caverns and the Underdark, so that's something to keep in mind.
This is exactly what I needed. We've got loads of underdark stuff in our campaign and anything to help ward them off is super important.

[Ferronach]

That... is a really cool idea.

Thanks :)


This intrigues me. Can you tell me where I can find the rules/fluff for the Lord of stone?


With regard to powerful rulers of elementals, you could always take a leaf from Faerun's book. For example, Grumbar is the Lord of Stone, a TN Primordial masquerading as a god; he has many followers, at least a few of whom should be able to provide elementals for your service. He also has an interest in caverns and the Underdark, so that's something to keep in mind.

Ninja-d :P I may be mistaken but I believe that Eberron may have some of these guys too?

[Blackhawk748]

I second the Earth Elementals (or is it third now?) Also Mineral Warrior Blink Dogs would be fun, and really really mean.

As for Dragons, if your DM ascribes to the "Dragons raised by others can be any alignment" school of thought, then i recommend a White Dragon. Yes my personal bias is showing but they have a Swim and a Burrow speed on top of their normal dragon movement and freezing fog is just nasty. On top of this they make excellent melee combatants and are very adept hit and run predators, all you need to do is teach them what is ok and not ok to eat. Generally you can get them to CN without to much problem, getting them to CG is more problematic.

Otherwise? Get some goblins in those tunnels. If your nice to them and bring them food every now and again they will probably do what you want, after the initial shock wears off.

[Ferronach]

OH! Oh! Oh! Pick Me! Pick Me!

hahahah finally think that I remebered the name of you new best friend :)
And I think he is found in the Eberron books...
I wish I was not afb :(

Belashyrra - (sp?) AKA Lord of Eyes (or Xoriat?) - This dude could easily grant you hounds of xoriat, animated objects, Reaver things?
And best of all!!!! Beholders!!!!

[LoyalPaladin]

As for Dragons, if your DM ascribes to the "Dragons raised by others can be any alignment" school of thought, then i recommend a White Dragon. Yes my personal bias is showing but they have a Swim and a Burrow speed on top of their normal dragon movement and freezing fog is just nasty. On top of this they make excellent melee combatants and are very adept hit and run predators, all you need to do is teach them what is ok and not ok to eat. Generally you can get them to CN without to much problem, getting them to CG is more problematic.

Otherwise? Get some goblins in those tunnels. If your nice to them and bring them food every now and again they will probably do what you want, after the initial shock wears off.
I like white dragons too, but I don't think they'll fit the bill. Our DM will most definitely follow the "Usually CE" methodology.

I love golblins. But they are NE. Which won't work. Goblins under the Bastion of Light? Hired by the Paladin of Torm? Probably a bad idea...


Belashyrra - (sp?) AKA Lord of Eyes (or Xoriat?) - This dude could easily grant you hounds of xoriat, animated objects, Reaver things?
And best of all!!!! Beholders!!!!
Haha. I'll see what I can find once I get home! I love beholders... I should probably state that things generally need to stray away from the bottom of the alignment scale. We've got holy stuff out the yin-yang. There are LN Beholders I think though? I want a Beholder librarian...

[Ferronach]

I want a Beholder librarian...

I wouldn't mind a Beholder butler :P

[Blackhawk748]

I love goblins. But they are NE. Which won't work. Goblins under the Bastion of Light? Hired by the Paladin of Torm? Probably a bad idea...

Just bribe show them the error of their ways, they are "Usually Neutral Evil", though in my experience you can convince them that not raiding people is better for their own self interest than raiding people. Honestly just spin everything as to how it will be better for them, goblins are notoriously self centered.

[Vhaidara]

I love golblins. But they are NE.

Goblins are all NE the same way that Elves are always CG and Dwarves are always LG. And Asians are all good at math. Namely: Only when you're a complete racist.



Haha. I'll see what I can find once I get home! I love beholders... I should probably state that things generally need to stray away from the bottom of the alignment scale. We've got holy stuff out the yin-yang. There are LN Beholders I think though? I want a Beholder librarian...

I've actually seen beholder librarians. They're baller. Also, you're okay with LN Beholders, but not non-evil goblins? What about Paladin Goblins?

[LoyalPaladin]

Goblins are all NE the same way that Elves are always CG and Dwarves are always LG. And Asians are all good at math. Namely: Only when you're a complete racist.

I've actually seen beholder librarians. They're baller. Also, you're okay with LN Beholders, but not non-evil goblins? What about Paladin Goblins?
That's why I prefaced it with:

Our DM will most definitely follow the "Usually CE" methodology.
We've grown accustomed to this. What I meant was, there is a breed of Beholder that is specifically LN. I think they are called Spectators? I could be making that up.

[Tarvus]

There is at least one non-evil beholder option - the extraplanar Spectator. They even form friendships and are usually quite even-tempered and pragmatic.

My 2cp on the training commoners is as follows.
Organize things "off-screen". The militia might be trained by your cohorts in their down time, or you might organize a yearly archery contests that award a prize stud bull to the winner etc. Just things that let the DM fudge their capabilities a bit while adding flavour to the community.

Buffing large amounts of low level troops is where a CW Samurai can actually do significant harm, so having one from leadership as well as other mass-buffs like the Marshal is useful.

However there are other ways to make your commoners effective with some creative item usage. Egg shell grenades are lovely save-or-sucks and so cheap you can easily spam them, Thieving helmets from A&E are 10gp so easily available to your militia and give a nice +1 to listen checks for your sentries. With a Good Holy Order of Holy Goodness, bless and axiomatic water should be easy to come by, and even a low level wizard can cast Water to Acid, so something like a Gnome Calculus from A&E can work wonders. It is an exotic weapon, but you're still hitting on a touch attack up to 50 feet. so who cares.

On top of those are spelled items that are permanent until discharged, things like 3.0's Khelben's Suspended Silence and Bloodfreeze Arrow really lets archer commoners punch above their weight class. Most of these sort of items are cheap if you have the respective caster and some downtime, but otherwise are cost-prohibitive and not worth it. The exception is Fire Shuriken. Not only are they almost costless (Something like a 1gp shuriken for every 3-12 you make), they do 3d6+Str fire damage, great against regenerators that would usually shred them, and the best part? The user (Or perhaps caster?) is automatically proficient in their use. You might even be able to pass around an Eternal Wand to arm your entire population with a supply like the Swiss.

[LoyalPaladin]

There is at least one non-evil beholder option - the extraplanar Spectator. They even form friendships and are usually quite even-tempered and pragmatic.
Haha! So my memory is not fading!


My 2cp on the training commoners is as follows.
Organize things "off-screen". The militia might be trained by your cohorts in their down time, or you might organize a yearly archery contests that award a prize stud bull to the winner etc.
I like this. We do have daily training courses at our keep. We are able to train 190 people I think? But I'll keep this in mind!


The exception is Fire Shuriken. Not only are they almost costless (Something like a 1gp shuriken for every 3-12 you make), they do 3d6+Str fire damage, great against regenerators that would usually shred them, and the best part?
I need these! For... reasons...

[Ferronach]

There is at least one non-evil beholder option - the extraplanar Spectator. They even form friendships and are usually quite even-tempered and pragmatic.


I think there is also another N or LN beholder called a watcher? observer? something along those lines. They are a bigger version of the Spectator and love knowledge if I recall correctly :S

You could keep the library underground and let the beholders have access to it in exchange for their protection? Win-win for you as you get protection and a beholder librarian! hahaha

EDIT: I do believe that it is an Observer from Lords of Madness. Unfortunatly work blocks virtually everything these days so cannot confirm until later :(

[LoyalPaladin]

I think there is also another N or LN beholder called a watcher? observer? something along those lines. They are a bigger version of the Spectator and love knowledge if I am recal correctly :S
You could keep the library underground and let the beholders have access to it in exchange for their protection? Win-win for you as you get protection and a beholder librarian! hahaha
... This is LG approved. I will now forward this on to my DM.

[unseenmage]

A note on Construct minions, the spell Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Eberron turns Construct into Humanoid. This lets you hit it with the Mineral Warrior spell granting it all kinds of awesomeness.

You can also hit it with Telepathic Bond now too. The Telepathic Bond should persist after the Greater Humanoid Essence wears off too since if creatures lost the benefit of spells when their type changed the spell Greater Humanoid Essence would make itself stop functioning as soon as it was cast.

So now you have a force of telepathically bonded, burrowing Constructs. Fun times.

[Red Fel]

I think there is also another N or LN beholder called a watcher? observer? something along those lines. They are a bigger version of the Spectator and love knowledge if I am recal correctly :S
You could keep the library underground and let the beholders have access to it in exchange for their protection? Win-win for you as you get protection and a beholder librarian! hahaha

I'd actually advise against keeping anything of yours - particularly anything of value - in the tunnels. First off, it means you'd have to intrude on the privacy of whatever is guarding your keep's underside. Second, it means that not only does your city still have that vulnerability, but now you've actually placed valuable bait there.

It's like if there was a hidden door in my city wall, and I made sure to keep a bag of gold in front of it, so that I'd know where to get in.

And third, let's not forget that the threats posed by the Underdark aren't purely physical. There are other menaces, such as the fact that, let's face it, pretty much everything down there winds up corrupt and Evil. It's one thing to place a guard in your tunnels and hope he doesn't turn on you; it's another to place a guard down there and give him valuables and hope that he doesn't turn on you.

Beholder guard? Not a terrible idea. Beholder guard and underground library? Not a great idea.

[Ferronach]

I'd actually advise against keeping anything of yours - particularly anything of value - in the tunnels. First off, it means you'd have to intrude on the privacy of whatever is guarding your keep's underside. Second, it means that not only does your city still have that vulnerability, but now you've actually placed valuable bait there.

It's like if there was a hidden door in my city wall, and I made sure to keep a bag of gold in front of it, so that I'd know where to get in.

And third, let's not forget that the threats posed by the Underdark aren't purely physical. There are other menaces, such as the fact that, let's face it, pretty much everything down there winds up corrupt and Evil. It's one thing to place a guard in your tunnels and hope he doesn't turn on you; it's another to place a guard down there and give him valuables and hope that he doesn't turn on you.

Beholder guard? Not a terrible idea. Beholder guard and underground library? Not a great idea.

That would be why you make a deal with their "boss" or deity :)
Only problem is that these LG people would never allow a lawyer to look over their contract to make sure it is good....

And a LN beholder would be rather trustworthy once it gave it's word.

[LoyalPaladin]

I'd actually advise against keeping anything of yours - particularly anything of value - in the tunnels.
I'm actually pretty opposed to keeping the underground. Every time we go deeper than your standard in basement we get ambushed by Yuan-Ti, Drow, Minotaurs, or some manor of amorphous blob.


And a LN beholder would be rather trustworthy once it gave it's word.
That is the hope. I love magical creatures. So packing tons of them in is a good idea to me.

[unseenmage]

Seriously though, Mineral Warrior constructs. Golems that can burrow and tunnel for you.
And thanks to the Effigy Template they can even look like Beholders if you want them to.

[Ferronach]

Seriously though, Mineral Warrior constructs. Golems that can burrow and tunnel for you.
And thanks to the Effigy Template they can even look like Beholders if you want them to.

But can they fly? :P

[unseenmage]

But can they fly? :P

I don't know but I was just thinking that one could use the Mineral Warrior Beholder Effigys as sentries and make all the walls/floors/ceilings of the tunnels into Mineral Warrior Minor Servitors using the spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species. Think Animate Objects, only they're intelligent and free willed.

[LoyalPaladin]

But can they fly? :P
Through an overly complex system of pulleys and cotton balls, I bet they could.

[Ferronach]

I don't know but I was just thinking that one could use the Mineral Warrior Beholder Effigys as sentries and make all the walls/floors/ceilings of the tunnels into Mineral Warrior Minor Servitors using the spell Minor Servitor from Savage Species. Think Animate Objects, only they're intelligent and free willed.

I think that I may just have released an evil DM laugh....


Through an overly complex system of pulleys and cotton balls, I bet they could.

Right! I forgot the cotton balls! No wonders it didn't work! hahahaha

[LoyalPaladin]

Right! I forgot the cotton balls! No wonders it didn't work! hahahaha
Always remember, cotton balls are like duct tape. Except they aren't sticky and don't do anything duct tape does.

On a more on topic note, do I need to feed Gelatinous Cubes?

[Blackhawk748]

Always remember, cotton balls are like duct tape. Except they aren't sticky and don't do anything duct tape does.

On a more on topic note, do I need to feed Gelatinous Cubes?

Not that i know of, but i'd just throw random organic material to them just in case.

[LoyalPaladin]

Not that i know of, but i'd just throw random organic material to them just in case.
Like Yuan-Ti!

[unseenmage]

...

On a more on topic note, do I need to feed Gelatinous Cubes?

To my knowledge every living thing needs to eat, sleep, and breathe. Even oozes.
Something I remember reading once about monsters starting with basic human needs and exceptions being listed in their descriptions or the type rules. Beyond that they need what we need, just in different doses depending on the creature (elves less "sleep", horses more food, etc).

[Ferronach]

MM1 says that: "Oozes are amorphous creatures that live only to eat. they inhabit underground areas throughout the world, scouring caverns, ruins and dungeons in search of organic matter - living or dead." -(MM1 p. 201 WOTC)

As far as I know, any organic matter will work... you could feed them in place of having a compost heap/garbage dump, you could throw the bodies of your fallen foes to them... heck you could probably even use the moat as a latrine. The ooze would simply dissolve anything organic and break it down to its basic elements and then absorb them.