Are elves an inferior race?

[Shamash]

I don't want to sound racist or anything but in the Order of the stick universe aren't elves inferior?

I mean their gods did not participate in the creation of the universe like the human, dwarf and lizardfolk gods did.

And they had to ask permission to become real gods like the goblins "dark god" did.

Don't that make them inferior? In a cosmic sense. Since they were created and designed by other gods.

[Armitage]

You know.. everytime you start something with 'I don't want to sound racist/sexist/...', you should stop right there. It's almost a certainty that the remark IS racist/sexist/...

[kivzirrum]

...I'm going to go ahead and assume there are absolutely no real world implications in your question, as such a thing would be both highly inappropriate and against the rules. As such I'll just say no, there is no implication in the story that just because you worship gods that were not part of the original, cardinal direction based pantheons, you are considered inferior.

[Gift Jeraff]

I assumed that OOTSiverse elves were too arrogant to worship anyone other than fellow elves, and the power of their worship transformed a few elves into gods, just like the Dark One. Not sure where you got the asking for permission bit from.

[Shamash]

I assumed that OOTSiverse elves were too arrogant to worship anyone other than fellow elves, and the power of their worship transformed a few elves into gods, just like the Dark One. Not sure where you got the asking for permission bit from.

I wish there was more info on how that happened.

Like how they look like, what are their dogmas and what they did to become worthy of becoming gods.

[zimmerwald1915]

I wish there was more info on how that happened.

Like how they look like, what are their dogmas and what they did to become worthy of becoming gods.
It's not important and we'll never find out.

[factotum]

And they had to ask permission to become real gods like the goblins "dark god" did.


Eh? :smallconfused: None of the latecomer gods had to ask permission to become "real" gods--the worship of their followers was enough to ensure that happened.

[Emanick]

...I'm going to go ahead and assume there are absolutely no real world implications in your question, as such a thing would be both highly inappropriate and against the rules.

I'm pretty sure there are no elves in real life, and that this question is based on a cosmology so divorced for our own that you really have to try hard to get some logical extension of it that applies to Earth. There's no racism here, let's all relax.

There don't seem to be any dwarven gods or human gods. Thor, for instance, isn't "human," he's a humanoid. So I doubt very much whether the elves were somehow unusually alienated from the gods in a racial sense.

Moreover, the gods don't create the laws of morality or determine the intrinsic value of any beings in the OOTSverse. So even if the elves were the only race to originally have no gods of a similar race, that wouldn't make them inferior.

[kivzirrum]

I'm pretty sure there are no elves in real life, and that this question is based on a cosmology so divorced for our own that you really have to try hard to get some logical extension of it that applies to Earth. There's no racism here, let's all relax.

Sorry. =/ I'm just fairly new to actually posting and wanted to make sure I didn't step on any toes. Wasn't intending to jump to conclusions--in fact, I was intending the opposite! If apparently failing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The elves were apparently created at the same time by the same gods as humans, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, dragons, etc. So no, they are in no way inferior.

[Roland Itiative]

It's just a different type of religion being portrayed in the OotS world. Just like not all real world religions are centred around cosmic beings that created the world, and instead focus on mortals who became godlike. In a world where all religions are true at the same time, it just happens that these "man-made" gods coexist with the cosmic beings who were already born as gods, but that in no way makes them inferior.

And, as pointed out above, the elves were made by the combined efforts of all three pantheons, same as all races. They just developed their culture in a way where they don't put these creators as objects of worship.

[Emanick]

Sorry. =/ I'm just fairly new to actually posting and wanted to make sure I didn't step on any toes. Wasn't intending to jump to conclusions--in fact, I was intending the opposite! If apparently failing.

Oh dear, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as having had a toe stepped on! I just wanted to ease the thread's tone and defuse it of any potential concerns about connections between the topic and racism. Evidently I was the one whose post did pretty much the opposite of what it intended. Ah well. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Eh? :smallconfused: None of the latecomer gods had to ask permission to become "real" gods--the worship of their followers was enough to ensure that happened.

Yeah, the only difference between the elven gods and the rest (save for the Dark One) is really one of age. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the elves were created with everyone else, but made their own gods.

[Keltest]

Yeah, the only difference between the elven gods and the rest (save for the Dark One) is really one of age. Plus, I'm pretty sure that the elves were created with everyone else, but made their own gods.

Indeed. Though why the goblinoids or elves didn't end up worshipping the original gods is a mystery to me. Goblins I guess could be explained by being completely isolated from non-goblin cultures, as well as having been created with the monsters.

[factotum]

Well, elves in OotS seem to be a little aloof--they probably didn't want to descend to worshipping the same gods that those scummy reptilians or humans were. :smallsmile:

[The Giant]

The elves worship their own gods in addition to certain Western Gods (since their homeland is in the west), not in place of. The elven gods are more like elf-specific associates rather than a replacement pantheon.

The goblins, on the other hand, worshipped no one before the Dark One.

[Quild]

Eh? :smallconfused: None of the latecomer gods had to ask permission to become "real" gods--the worship of their followers was enough to ensure that happened.

I agree. We know the story of the Dark One from a crayons part in SoD so that's not necessarily canon, but word of the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=14473844&postcount=32) strongly implies that it's true nonetheless.

Gods through ascension don't need a permission but could indeed be destroyed right after their ascension.

Also I wouldn't say that becoming a god is less worthy that being born one.

Plus, humans, dwarves, etc... did not had their gods who participated to the creation of their world. They chose to worship one or several of the gods who participated. It's different. It is not "their" gods, they are the gods' worshippers.
Elves (and maybe goblins) could have worshipped the Southern, Western or Northern gods.
Edit: Which they did then.

[snowblizz]

I was going to suggest maybe they were supposed to be followers of the Eastern gods, but then got stuck with another pantheon when it was wiped. But of course all the dwarfs and humans and elfs and so on were recreated later on.

I've always kinda seen it as "meta", elves are PCs but a bit different, so they'd never really "fit" with the "regular" pantheons and so supplemented them by their own worthies. Feels like an elf thing to do.

[Murk]

I'd say just the opposite: the elves are pretty fortunate with their pantheons. Where all other races have to share gods, those gods can never really play favourites. All their attention, support and favors have to be spread out over multiple races.
The elves, though, have a few gods completely to themselves (and, so the Giant just told us, the other gods too). That should make for an interesting situation, should the wishes of species ever collide.

[Peelee]

Where all other races have to share gods, those gods can never really play favourites. All their attention, support and favors have to be spread out over multiple races.

What makes you think that?

[Murk]

What makes you think that?

Yeah, OK, they might have favourites, but I don't think a god like Thor would take action to benefit dwarves, if it comes with a disadvantage to his human worshippers. But since the elves are the only worshippers of the Elven gods (and seem a pretty united race, politically, too), that seems a large divine advantage.

[hagnat]

The elves worship their own gods in addition to certain Western Gods (since their homeland is in the west), not in place of. The elven gods are more like elf-specific associates rather than a replacement pantheon.

The goblins, on the other hand, worshipped no one before the Dark One.

if i were to have a ****ty life, i would be an atheist as well...

on the other hand, that's mostly how many religions were created IRL, which explain how the Dark One became a god

[Keltest]

Yeah, OK, they might have favourites, but I don't think a god like Thor would take action to benefit dwarves, if it comes with a disadvantage to his human worshippers. But since the elves are the only worshippers of the Elven gods (and seem a pretty united race, politically, too), that seems a large divine advantage.

I suspect that there are divine laws that stop the Elven gods and the Dark One from just giving their followers a whole bunch of stuff.

[Angelalex242]

Elves have their own gods. Cool.

We just haven't seen any, then. And probably won't now that V got a divorce and has no reason to return to hir homeland.

[Zweisteine]

I suspect that there are divine laws that stop the Elven gods and the Dark One from just giving their followers a whole bunch of stuff.
I suspect that the Domain Agreement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0954.html) would include something to cover that.

"If god interfere directly with the material plane, other gods can take action to counter it."

[Deliverance]

Elves have their own gods. Cool.

We just haven't seen any, then. And probably won't now that V got a divorce and has no reason to return to hir homeland.
I refer you to #81 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html) and its followup #85 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html).

V worships the elven god of knowledge, keeper of secrets so mighty that even the smallest taste of them would shatter Elan's sanity, and he'll definitely never renounce his god for anything less than an espresso maker.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes.

They don't have a bonus feat at first level. :smallwink:

[Zyzzyva]

Elves have their own gods. Cool.

We just haven't seen any, then. And probably won't now that V got a divorce and has no reason to return to hir homeland.

Honestly, except the crayon flashbacks (which the Elf Gods weren't there for) we've seen very few Gods at all, mostly Northerners.

And when I saw the thread title I assumed this would be about the OoPCs "Did you just imply all Elves have a learning disability" lifespan thing.

[Snails]

I suspect that there are divine laws that stop the Elven gods and the Dark One from just giving their followers a whole bunch of stuff.

The gods as depicted seem to be neither omniscient nor omnipotent. We have no reason to believe that the gods could give everyone a +2 sword, even if they wanted to.

[NerdyKris]

Actually, we only see that they follow a very strict set of rules. They may still be omnipotent, but have already learned that throwing such power around without regard to others has a tendency to create snarls in the threads of creation.

Start of Darkness further expands on this in the same manner as Durkula's description of domains. That they have specific actions they're allowed to take because it's the only way for them all to work together without devolving into a fight.

Which incidentally also happens to be a metaphor for a gaming group whose characters have specific abilities that are listed, because otherwise they could just do whatever they want and the game would fall apart.

[Peelee]

The gods as depicted seem to be neither omniscient nor omnipotent. We have no reason to believe that the gods could give everyone a +2 sword, even if they wanted to.

I dunno... I'd argue that since they created the world, and by extension +2 swords, they totally could give out +2 swords if they wanted to. Not omnipotent, sure, but still powerful deities.

[goodpeople25]

I dunno... I'd argue that since they created the world, and by extension +2 swords, they totally could give out +2 swords if they wanted to. Not omnipotent, sure, but still powerful deities.

True but didn't they make the world out of the threads of reality which I'm pretty sure are finite or the gods would make more than one world so not to have worshipers living on the snarl

Then again most gods probably could make or have servants make high end equipment and give them away to followers which is why there are probably rules against it

[Murk]

At the very least they could go running around smashing castles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html). I don't think anyone would complain, were Thor to do this in real life.
It might not be much, but eh, Durkon can't :)

[factotum]

At the very least they could go running around smashing castles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html).

That's just what Durkon imagines Thor could do, though. The gods have a specific agreement to not directly interfere with Stickworld except through their clerics, and while Thor has been seen to play a bit fast and loose with that (the lightning strike at Cliffport and the storm that interrupted the Mechane's journey) I think he'd be in deep trouble if he started giving +2 swords to his followers.

[ti'esar]

The gods have a specific agreement to not directly interfere with Stickworld except through their clerics, and while Thor has been seen to play a bit fast and loose with that (the lightning strike at Cliffport and the storm that interrupted the Mechane's journey) I think he'd be in deep trouble if he started giving +2 swords to his followers.

That's a different issue than the question of whether Thor is capable of creating +2 swords for all of his followers, though.

[faustin]

In an unrelated note, if all you need for archieving godhood is plenty of followers worshipping you even after dead... does that mean Stephen Colbert could become a god in the Stickverse? :smalltongue:

[Murk]

In an unrelated note, if all you need for archieving godhood is plenty of followers worshipping you even after dead... does that mean Stephen Colbert could become a god in the Stickverse? :smalltongue:

Sure could. If his coffee machines do espresso.

Y'know, Banjo's smite might not have been much, but he only had three followers at the time. It makes me think you only need 50 to 100 followers for a decent smite. If Tarquin orders a few of his loyal soldiers to start worshipping Malack, our lizard friend would be back in no time. If the entire crew of the Mechane takes Bandana as a god, she could do at least three smites a day. Heck, even Roy could at least get one smite out of the rest of the order, if he'd want to.

[Reddish Mage]

The answer is: which edition? Clearly 2e elves are inferior because the lack of access to the highest levels of magic is too high a price for a race to pay in return for a few miscellaneous bonuses...

Wait, that's not what we're talking about?

[D.One]

And since we delved into side discussions, I think it's fair to assume (also taking The Giant's words into account) that the answer for the thread title question is "No, they aren't an inferior race.", in "cosmic terms".

[Reboot]

And when I saw the thread title I assumed this would be about the OoPCs "Did you just imply all Elves have a learning disability" lifespan thing.

Is that related to the fact it apparently took V a century of study to cast a first level spell (#126), while human wizards like Eugene or Dorukan can reach high-level or even Epic with an entire lifespan less than that?

[Zyzzyva]

Is that related to the fact it apparently took V a century of study to cast a first level spell (#126), while human wizards like Eugene or Dorukan can reach high-level or even Epic with an entire lifespan less than that?

That's exactly what the joke is, yeah.

[faustin]

Is that related to the fact it apparently took V a century of study to cast a first level spell (#126), while human wizards like Eugene or Dorukan can reach high-level or even Epic with an entire lifespan less than that?

That only means elves like V can indulge themselves wasting centuries of their lifespan, while humans are far more motivated in archieving things as soon as possible

[Keltest]

That´s only means elves like V can allow themselves to waste centuries of their lifespan, while humans are far more motivated in archieving things as soon as possible.

I choose to assume that his master decided to get a century of free labor out of the apprenticeship.

[Rakoa]

That´s only means elves like V can allow themselves to waste centuries of their lifespan, while humans are far more motivated in archieving things as soon as possible.

At which point they start adventuring with humans and advancing at an almost identical rate?

[Keltest]

At which point they start adventuring with humans and advancing at an almost identical rate?

Necessity is the mother of innovation. They cant let those stupid humans or dwarves learn faster than them!

[Koo Rehtorb]

This is one of the reasons that elves as a playable race don't make any sense. And why D&D elves are terrible mockeries of Tolkienien elves. :smallmad:

[Rakoa]

Necessity is the mother of innovation. They cant let those stupid humans or dwarves learn faster than them!

There is a theory that I have been a fan of since hearing it, going something along the lines of "trancing as an Elf is something really, really hard to learn, and does not actually come naturally, and so a significant amount of time is spent in the young years just learning a skill that is a biological necessity, and after it is learned they can get around to learning useful adventurer stuff (at the same rate as any other race)".

[faustin]

Good thing about being an elf: unlike humans, you have all the time of the world to perfect your craft to near perfection.
Bad thing about being an elf: imagine trying to quite smoking, drinking, being a racist ass**** , etc.. after centuries of habit.

[Reddish Mage]

Good thing about being an elf: unlike humans, you have all the time of the world to perfect your craft to near perfection.
Bad thing about being an elf: imagine trying to quite smoking, drinking, being a racist ass**** , etc.. after centuries of habit.

Too bad elves in D&D don't actually take advantage of all that time *sigh*


That only means elves like V can indulge themselves wasting centuries of their lifespan, while humans are far more motivated in archieving things as soon as possible

:vaarsuvius:There are certain spiritual benefits to taking your time and taking things slow that I'm sure you hairy-monkeys with the life-span of a moth simply cannot comprehend.

[Coidzor]

Aside from cheese and Gray and Fire Elves, Elves are generally inferior to humans and many other races in 3.5, although they do have an alternate class feature for wizards that is a real contender with being a specialist wizard.

They've also got one or two nifty things they have access to or easier access to, but those aren't game-changers, just nice.

They do, however, live an awfully long time, which is their principle advantage in the OotS setting, or so I've understood what has been shown so far. This has allowed them to have their higher-leveled characters to stick around longer and have more of an impact on their society instead of fleeing to the outer planes, dying from old age or going soft due to old age, or pursuing unnatural means of prolonging their lives that alienate them from baseline humanoid society.

[dancrilis]

Yes elves are an inferior race.
1: They are weaker physically.
2: They are weaker mentally.
3: They do not live as long.
4: They mature slower.
5: They have less innate powers.
6: The innate powers they do have are less useful.
7: They are simply less impressive from a visual perspective.

I am of course comparing them to most breeds of dragon - and frankly most breeds of creature come out of that looking inferior.

[Reddish Mage]

Yes elves are an inferior race.
1: They are weaker physically.
2: They are weaker mentally.
3: They do not live as long.
4: They mature slower.
5: They have less innate powers.
6: The innate powers they do have are less useful.
7: They are simply less impressive from a visual perspective.

I am of course comparing them to most breeds of dragon - and frankly most breeds of creature come out of that looking inferior.

For such a superior race, dragons seem to have a serious population problem, and seem particularly vulnerable to getting hunted down and exterminated by eceletic groups of 4-6 humanoids at every stage of their life cycle.

I blame their tendency to hoarde treasure, that flaw pretty much dooms their race to near-extinction.

So from an evolutionary stand point dragons are inferior.

Point one for elves :vaarsuvius:

[faustin]

Dragons are inferior because, despite all their power and longevity, they seems unable to produce, invent or build anything on their own; all they do is to steal from the other races and keep mountains of gold and gems for no other use but to sleep on top. They are like a satire of capitalist upper crust.

[MilesBeyond]

You know.. everytime you start something with 'I don't want to sound racist/sexist/...', you should stop right there. It's almost a certainty that the remark IS racist/sexist/...

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but I don't really think this is an issue when we're talking about fantasy races. Unless you were being sarcastic, in which case disregard this post.



Anyway, the discussion kind of reminds me of Arcanum. Anyone play that game? It's by the Fallout guys, about a fantasy world going through an industrial revolution, kind of steam punk-y. Anyway, one of the controversies going on comes from the development of the Theory of Evolution, where scientists argued that Elves are just Humans who lived near huge quantities of magic and over time adapted to it. Elves of course are like "Nuh-uh! We're the elder race!" and got super pissed off over the whole thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Dragons are inferior because, despite all their power and longevity, they seems unable to produce, invent or build anything on their own; all they do is to steal from the other races and keep mountains of gold and gems for no other use but to sleep on top. They are like a satire of capitalist upper crust.

Cart before the horse there. Dragons are, in medieval imagery at least, emblematic of the Cardinal Sin of Avarice. So the capitalist upper crust are a bunch of bald monkeys trying to imitate dragons.:smalltongue:

[Reddish Mage]

Cart before the horse there. Dragons are, in medieval imagery at least, emblematic of the Cardinal Sin of Avarice. So the capitalist upper crust are a bunch of bald monkeys trying to imitate dragons.:smalltongue:

Exactly, Dragons cannot be a satire of the Capitalist Upper Crust. The Capitalist Upper Crust are a mere mockery of the gold embedded glory that is the Dragon.

Also, Dragons don't actually produce anything themselves they just take from others that make the actual stuff and horde it for themselves. Capitalists on the other hand...oh wait, I get it.

[factotum]

Dragons are inferior because, despite all their power and longevity, they seems unable to produce, invent or build anything on their own

I wouldn't say they're *unable* to do such things, more that they don't see the need. After all, they're an apex predator who are one-on-one able to outmatch pretty much any other being in the universe short of a god, why would they need to build or invent stuff? What *could* they invent which would be more powerful or more effective than their claws, breath weapon and magic?

[faustin]

Coming back to topic, I think by logic elves should have better stats than humans and other short-lived races. Legolas is not a far better archer than any random Gondor soldier by virtue of being an elf (mostly), but because he had centuries of experience hunting in the forest.

[Keltest]

Coming back to topic, I think by logic elves should have better stats than humans and other short-lived races. Legolas is not a far better archer than any random Gondor soldier by virtue of being an elf (mostly), but because he had centuries of experience hunting in the forest.

That would be represented through (get this) higher experience totals, not stat bonuses. Elves have a lot longer lifespans to go adventuring.

[factotum]

Comes back to the issue of balance in D&D not matching up with the fluff, really. I mean, they didn't *need* to give elves longer lifespans than humans--I'm not even sure why they chose to do that, since Tolkien elves are functionally immortal unless killed and I'm not sure what other source they might have used as inspiration.

[Keltest]

Comes back to the issue of balance in D&D not matching up with the fluff, really. I mean, they didn't *need* to give elves longer lifespans than humans--I'm not even sure why they chose to do that, since Tolkien elves are functionally immortal unless killed and I'm not sure what other source they might have used as inspiration.

It adds to the fey aspect of the elves. Immortal or near immortal beings are classic faeries.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't see the big problem with long life spans and same stats and levels. It's adequetely explained elves just aren't in such a rush to master things like humans.

Being an elf means having enough time to fool around, go to the party, work a little, play a little, have a hobby or two, and still watch every single episode of MASH three times over.

[Prinygod]

I don't see the big problem with long life spans and same stats and levels. It's adequetely explained elves just aren't in such a rush to master things like humans.

Being an elf means having enough time to fool around, go to the party, work a little, play a little, have a hobby or two, and still watch every single episode of MASH three times over.

To go even farther it would even be a cultural thing. Even if you got the elf that wants to become a wizard asap. You might have his master make him take time of to practice his archery. But when he finally goes adventuring he sells that bow for a scroll kit and parchment and his skills really start to take off.

[goodpeople25]

To go even farther it would even be a cultural thing. Even if you got the elf that wants to become a wizard asap. You might have his master make him take time of to practice his archery. But when he finally goes adventuring he sells that bow for a scroll kit and parchment and his skills really start to take off.

Well elves are the only main race to have free martial weapon Proficiency feats.

[Prinygod]

Well elves are the only main race to have free martial weapon Proficiency feats.
That was one of my main points. Maybe there is so much that you are expected to be able to do before you are considered an adult ready for adventure. Much of which simply give no gameplay benefits like proficiancies.

[Porthos]

Back in the day when elves had a real lifespan, (:smallwink:) there was a great look at their worldview in Dragon Magazine. Specifically, issue #60.

I strongly recommend tracking it down and reading it (the article was called "The Elven Point of View" by Roger Moore). It stressed that the incredibly long lived lives of elves just gave them a fundamentaly different worldview than the races that live a shorter amount of time.

Now mechancially it might cause some issues to arise if one looks at it too closely. OTOH, if one looks at it from the viewpoint that elves simply don't feel the need to get everything acomplished if two or three years, it becomes more understandable.

They can advance as quickly as humans and everyone else when they are adventuring.... They simply don't fell the pressing need to do so.

---

Mind, with the introduction of unlimited levels in 3.x for all races and classes, this becomes a little harder to digest. But it's not insurmountable.

[goodpeople25]

That was one of my main points. Maybe there is so much that you are expected to be able to do before you are considered an adult ready for adventure. Much of which simply give no gameplay benefits like proficiancies.
That's what i thought i was just clarifying.
Also just a guess but maybe the elven language has complexities you don't need to be fluent but elves are culturally encouraged to learn

[faustin]

They could be like the Ents, spending a month in a single "Hello, how are you?".

[goodpeople25]

They could be like the Ents, spending a month in a single "Hello, how are you?".
I was thinking more like an extensive amount of social niceties like titles and stuff
Like inky would be called middle aged apprentice baker recently divorced with two adopted kids in kindergarden who lives in a cottage in ivyleaf which is tan and has red shudders, ect. Okay thats a little exaggerated but you get the gist.

[Jasdoif]

I was thinking more like an extensive amount of social niceties like titles and stuff
Like inky would be called middle aged apprentice baker recently divorced with two adopted kids in kindergarden who lives in a cottage in ivyleaf which is tan and has red shudders, ect. Okay thats a little exaggerated but you get the gist.Like...."Greetings and Saluations, Inkyrius Midivdoskin D'Ivyleaf, may your goods always rise and achieve a flaky crust betwixt the red shutters of a tan cottage"? It'd be a hassle to fit on business cards, at the very least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html).

[goodpeople25]

Like...."Greetings and Saluations, Inkyrius Midivdoskin D'Ivyleaf, may your goods always rise and achieve a flaky crust betwixt the red shutters of a tan cottage"? It'd be a hassle to fit on business cards, at the very least (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html).
I was thinking kinda like a title before or after the name that manages to contain most of that persons accomplishments and thus takes forever to learn like each sound interacts to make the title. Maybe with tone changing it as well

[faustin]

I was thinking more like an extensive amount of social niceties like titles and stuff
Like inky would be called middle aged apprentice baker recently divorced with two adopted kids in kindergarden who lives in a cottage in ivyleaf which is tan and has red shudders, ect. Okay thats a little exaggerated but you get the gist.

That may be the case, specially if we remember the earlier strips :smallbiggrin:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0010.html

[Reddish Mage]

To go even farther it would even be a cultural thing. Even if you got the elf that wants to become a wizard asap. You might have his master make him take time of to practice his archery. But when he finally goes adventuring he sells that bow for a scroll kit and parchment and his skills really start to take off.

Is this something like how in Dragonball when the weights come off the heroes can life mountains or planets or whatever with ease?


Well elves are the only main race to have free martial weapon Proficiency feats.

Oh.


Seriously though, we shouldn't go farther. D&D just needs to explain how you end up with elves at the same level as everyone else at 130 or so but then advance at the same rate as the rest of the group, and also why all those 300-400 year old elves aren't level 40 already. Commence with handwaving about the general lackadaisical attitude of elves, or their unhurried nature, etc. Say that all collapses upon contact with humans and bang! That's it.

That's all they wrote.