Multiple characters attending the same item?

[heavyfuel]

After posting twice on the RAW Q&A and getting no answer, I decided to post a new thread with the scenario:


"A" holds a 10ft pole at one end, while "B" holds it at the other.

Who is attending to the pole?

What would happen if "A" used Dimension Hop to 20ft away from "B"?


I'd prefer a RAW answer if any, but I'm cool with each person's interpretation.

[sideswipe]

he who has it written on their character sheet.

[black-jack]

I don't know about any RAW answer, but I would probably do a disarm check to see who is attending the pole.

[XionUnborn01]

I would say whoever had the pole first would be attending it and the other person is assisting. No real RAW reason, it just makes it easier.

[bjoern]

There is no pole. (Don't tell anyone else)

[goto124]

What would happen if "A" used Dimension Hop to 20ft away from "B"?

Situation 1:
Pole teleports with A. Now only A is holding the pole, and B is wondering why the pole suddenly disappeared from her hands until she looks at A.

Situation 2:
Pole remains with B, such that only B is holding the pole. A realizes the pole is not with him anymore.

Situation 3:
*CRACK*

'Oi! Why did you Teleport without letting go of the darn thing first?'

'At least we now have 2 poles... 5ft each...'

[Ferronach]

I would say that if A was the first to wield it, B would need to make a disarm check or some such. if successful, B would keep it otherwise A would keep it.
If B was the one wielding it, B would keep the pole.
AKA: Whoever is in control of the item at the time that the spell takes place.

I would go with this option for the following reason (not really RAW but sort of it):

Assume A and B are standing 5 feet appart.
A decides to dimension hop (or planar shift etc.).
Both A and B are standing on the ground, they are both in contact with the ground much the same way that in your example they are both touching the pole.
A will reappear 20 feet away with all his equipment and clothing and any wielded items.
B will not come along for the ride despite being near by and touching the same object (the ground).
A will not take any of ther equipment/possesions/wield items with him.

[Nibbens]

Most teleport spells have some sort of weight limit. So, if the weight of A and B and the Pole is more than the weight limit, I assume the whole thing would fail and nothing would happen.

[Necromancy]

For realism and simplicity though, I would make it a strength check or contest

[nedz]

RAW is silent on this, so we have to make a house-rule.


For realism and simplicity though, I would make it a strength check or contest

Nice idea, but it's a will power thing — so a Charisma check is in order.

[Maglubiyet]

The rule from teleport, which presumably applies to the entire school of Conjuration (Teleportation), is:

"Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and spell resistance."

Since the other person is holding (or attending) the pole, the pole gets a Will saving throw. Technically they are both holding the pole, but that's not relevant. (The condition simply states: If A=True then do WillSave. In this case A=True and B=True. However, the state of B is not referenced by the rule).

[heavyfuel]

I understand it was probably ambiguous, but in the scenario, "B" wants to be teleported with "A". "B" was in difficult terrain, "A" extended the pole and swift action Diminsion Hopped away from the difficult terrain.

[Barstro]

Off the top of my head, then we have the following;
A is holding a pole
Pole is being grappled by B
A casts Dimension Hop

Non-intelligent object gets a is forced to have a saving throw.
If throw is made, Pole stays with B
If throw is lost, Pole goes with A
There is not enough contact between A and B to allow B to benefit from Dimension Hop.

Now to check online for rules.
Ok, I show the spell as saying;

Dimension Hop
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Duskblade 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Pale motes of light dance and swirl about your fingertips. When you touch the creature, it disappears, leaves a cloud of motes in its wake, and reappears somewhere nearby.

You instantly teleport the subject creature a distance of 5 feet per two caster levels. The destination must be an unoccupied space within line of sight.

Range is Touch. You can either touch yourself (try to be discrete), or touch another creature.
I see nothing in the spell and know of no rules that allow you to touch another creature with a pole or to use a range: touch on yourself and and bring someone else along when the target is singular.

I think RAW is that there is no way to Dimension Hop your ally from range with just a pole.

[jiriku]

I understand it was probably ambiguous, but in the scenario, "B" wants to be teleported with "A". "B" was in difficult terrain, "A" extended the pole and swift action Diminsion Hopped away from the difficult terrain.

While clever, this use was illegal. Dimension hop requires touch. Poking someone with a 10' pole is not "touching" in the sense that D&D uses that term. The point of the 'touch' range is that in most situations, it requires you to move adjacent to the target, which is sometimes inconvenient to do. This limits a spell's power.

[Curmudgeon]

You might want to maintain consistency with other aspects of the game.
Any part of an item that the subject carries but that extends more than 10 feet from it becomes visible. So if any part of the rope extends more than 10' past what you hold, it's not attended by you. If you Dimension Hop you'll take an extra 10' of rope with you; the rest will remain behind.

[daremetoidareyo]

Look, I appreciate the creativity in this case. As a DM, I would require a nasty spellcraft DC as an immediate action to be passed to represent a frantic mages mind in a dangerous situation to take a spell he knows and channel it down a pole to a desperate colleague just out of reach, who is clutching it and hoping. The narrative is awesome. If he fails the DC, the spell is wasted. I'll explain that this is a one time rule of cool situation and what the consequences of the spell check are, and then let him decide if he still wants to pursue this action. Assuming a low to med op game, I would set the DC to be something that would be a 50/50 chance for an 20 ability score at max skill ranks for the minimum caster level of the spell: 10 +5 +CL +3. That way, enhancements/penalties still have an effect, the dire situation has scaled with the PC.


The way I see it, spells and feats represent the middle 90% of what their descriptions can do. That way I can tell you how a wizards' magic missile is different than a sorcerer's. Or how SLAs that mimic spells are not simply a spell like a sorcerer does it, but a flavored different thing with the effect that is mechanically identical to a spell.

[Maglubiyet]

I understand it was probably ambiguous, but in the scenario, "B" wants to be teleported with "A". "B" was in difficult terrain, "A" extended the pole and swift action Diminsion Hopped away from the difficult terrain.

Yeah, this wouldn't work. Rules from Dimension Hop:

"...you can transport only yourself and a maximum 100 lb. (or your maximum load, whichever is less) of objects you carry or touch."

- and -

"You cannot transport any creature except for your familiar..."

[Lord of Shadows]

While clever, this use was illegal. Dimension hop requires touch. Poking someone with a 10' pole is not "touching" in the sense that D&D uses that term. The point of the 'touch' range is that in most situations, it requires you to move adjacent to the target, which is sometimes inconvenient to do. This limits a spell's power.

Agree with jiriku on this one. Dimensional Hop requires touch. I have a Pathfinder RPG Cleric with the Travel Domain, and have used Dimensional Hop to rescue party members in trouble. Since the ability is a Move Action, I can pop in, they grab me, and I pop out, 2 move actions on my part, one action for them. In Pathfinder, you can also use the "automatically touch one friend" rule for spellcasting in combat:


Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Source: D20PFSRD, Cast a Spell in Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cast-a-Spell)

[lsfreak]

I agree that this use of dimension hop is illegal. However, rather than giving a Spellcraft check to see it as a one-time thing, I might allow the player to make a gamble as I've seen suggested for making games a bit more freeform: say on a 1 the spell works as intended, on a 2-3 the spell goes off as is legal, and on a 4-6 the spell backfired somehow from trying to do something it wasn't intended to do (switch the places of the two characters rather than taking them elsewhere, 4 points caster ability damage, works but half total HP in splinch damage, etc). They can choose to do some other action, or take the gamble and cast the spell, and rather than a one-time thing this could be something the character tries again, it's just that the negatives are significant enough it shouldn't be open to later abuse (and the maluses next time might be slightly different). Gambling on it, rather than actually invoking Spellcraft rules, I think helps distance it from being something the players see as set rules (the "if it has stats you can kill it" problem), while also not breaking the established way things work because "it's just so awesome the rules don't matter... this one time only."

[heavyfuel]

You might want to maintain consistency with other aspects of the game. So if any part of the rope extends more than 10' past what you hold, it's not attended by you. If you Dimension Hop you'll take an extra 10' of rope with you; the rest will remain behind.

While this is fine for invisiblility, simply breaking 10ft of a partially attended item seems too powerful for a 2nd level spell. Could definitely see this being abused.

But what if it's a 10ft pole instead of a rope? It extends only for 10ft. Do I take the entire pole with me and leave the person?

[goto124]

Better than slicing the poor sod's hand off via tele-frag.

[Jowgen]

A and B are both attending/carrying the pole. This status of dual attendance lasts until one of the two following conditions is met:

a) A or B reliquishes control of the object (drop)
b) A or B forces control of the object from the other (disarm)

The RAW resolution of the presented problem lies in the classic "just because it doesn't say you can't doesn't mean you can" paradigm.

Non-damaging spells that affect a creature generally also affect that creature's equipement (e.g. endure elements protects both armor and wearer), but this does not extend to the equipment of other creatures (unless specified). Dimension hop can affect A's equipement when A is targeted , but as no power to affect B's equipement. Unless an effect can simultaneously apply to both A and B's equipement, the fact that the pole counts as being attended by B excludes it from being affected by effects that would extend from A to A's equipment.

One may try to argue the reverse, in that only the "Is A's equipment = true" requirement must be met, as to make the "B's equipment = true" factor irrelevant. However, if one did than this then this spell would gain the ability to change "Is B's equipment = true" to "Is B's equipment = false", allowing it to substitute a disarm check in this scenario, which is not something that the spell-description or any given rule gives Dimension Hop the ability to do. The spell would fail due to an attempt to use it illegally, which would give creatures the ablity to avoid being teleported against their will simply by sharing object attendance with another creature (which is just silly). As such, it is clear that dual attendance prevents objects from being affected by single-attendee-targeteing effects.

Therefore, A must thus either 1) disarm B prior to dimension-hopping (taking the appropriate action), 2) reliquish the pole as a free action/reliquish by teleporting away, or (if dual attendance is not ruled to prevent this) 3) inadvertedly let the dimension hop fail due to having attempted to use it illegaly for disarming.