Arcane build I lost

[MaelstromWrath]

Was working on a build a week or so ago. Took a break, and then today decided to pick it back up. Then I realized I had lost the original source... I searched for about 2-3 hours today, backtracking through my browser history, and reading through entire threads to try and find it, to no avail. So, I kept working on it anyways... but then I discovered I didn't know enough about the mechanics. So, anyways, here's the basics of the build. Spellthief 1 / Wizard 5 / Incantatrix 3 / Knight of the Weave 1 / Ultimate Magus 10. Taking Master Spellthief, and Practiced Spellcaster (spellthief). The whole thought behind the build was the massive caster level, and sadly, that's the part I'm not sure how it works. So, my first question, and this will make it quite easy; has anyone seen this build or a similar one, and could maybe just link me to it? Otherwise; would anyone here be willing to explain to me how the caster level would turn out for this. I seem to remember the original stated that the CL for the Knight would be in the 50s, but after reading and re-reading the books, I just don't see how. I must be misinterpreting them, or perhaps the original creator was.

PS-I created my account here just today, and just for this. I'm trying to abide by all the rules, and if I managed to break one anyways, I apologize.

PPS-I do have more information I could add to this, if requested, but as of right now I'm trying to keep it minimal because I really just want to see if someone has already posted something similar.

:edit: I'm still working on solving this myself while the question awaits answers. I thought of a different question that would possibly answer the original question; is "as if you had also gained a level" as good as an actual level for calculating Master Spellthief? I think, but I'm not sure, if that's the case, the whole build will be way easier to understand.
Another thing that would help is understanding the wording: "plus any other arcane caster levels you may have." I know if I have wizard 1 / sorcerer 1 / beguiler 1 / Duskblade 1, that's adding +4. What about stuff like Incantatrix & Ultimate Magus that don't add a "real" arcane caster level, just "as if you had gained one"?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Caster level stacking is a bit tricky, due to the wording of certain abilities.

The first thing to note is the difference between your caster level and your spellcaster level. Your caster level is improved by Practiced Spellcaster and similar, and it's what determines your rolls vs SR, your duration, range, and damage of spells, and similar. Your spellcaster level is your level in a spellcasting class which determines your spells per day, spells known if applicable, and the highest level of spells you get from that class. By default, your caster level in a given class is equal to your spellcaster level in that class, but not the other way around.

Spellthief is included because it gets you the feat Master Spellthief in Complete Scoundrel. That feat makes your caster level in all your arcane classes equal to your spellcaster level in each of those classes, plus your Spellthief class level. This replaces your current caster level with a total that is not modified by any caster level bonuses you may have had prior to applying it.

Ultimate Magus is included because it increases your spellcaster level in two classes by a total of seventeen levels, but only costs you ten character levels. It also gives you +4 caster level which can be applied after all other effects, such as Master Spellthief.

Your Wizard default caster level is equal to your Wizard spellcaster level, and that caster level gets completely replaced when you apply Master Spellthief.

Your Knight of the Weave caster level is equal to your Knight of the Weave class level plus any other arcane caster levels you may have. This gets completely replaced when you apply Master Spellthief. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, and your Knight of the Weave spellcasting class feature is a single effect which must all be applied at once.

What that build tries to do is confuse caster level and spellcaster level enough that it gets to add the same numbers together multiple times, which does not work by RAW.


If you want to build this character, just go Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Wizard 3/ Ultimate Magus 10, with Master Spellthief and ideally Versatile Spellcaster and Able Learner. At level 15 your spellcaster levels will be Sorcerer 8 and Wizard 13, so Master Spellthief will make your caster level in each class 22, and then your Ultimate Magus Arcane Spell Power +4 increases that to 26, at level 15. Granted most spells' effects are capped at a much lower caster level than that, but we're using Sorcerer instead of Beguiler in this case despite the MAD casting stats because Wings of Flurry doesn't have a limit to how much damage it can deal. Get Arcane Disciple for something like Holy Word and you'll automatically kill nongood opponents whose HD or total class levels are no more than one higher than your character level.


Otherwise just go Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 10/ Anything 5, make nine Simulacrums of yourself which are each Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5 and keep them in a Portable Hole. Every day each of those Simulacrums leads a circle with four others, and each one uses the spell levels gained to Heighten a single spell to 20th level. Every day you spend one hour leading a circle with all nine of them each casting their 20th level spell, so you gain 180 spell levels to increase your caster level to 40th and add free metamagic to all your spells, and your Dictum or similar will automatically kill creatures of 30 HD or less.


If you want to try to make it really silly, go ahead and use Knight of the Weave but you'll need a lot more classes. For example, a Spellthief 1/ Beguiler 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Bard 1/ Wu-Jen 1/ Duskblade 1/ Wizard 1/ Knight of the Weave 3/ Ultimate Magus 10, using Versatile Spellcaster and Sanctum Spell or similar to spontaneously cast 3rd level spells, you'll have spellcaster levels of Beguiler 1, Sorcerer 1, Bard 1, Wu-Jen 1, Duskblade 1, Wizard 11, and Knight of the Weave 10, plus one Spellthief level. You would have to not apply your Knight of the Weave spellcasting until after applying Master Spellthief, so your caster level for Beguiler, Sorcerer, Bard, Wu-Jen, Duskblade, and Wizard is 17. Then you apply Ultimate Magus Arcane Spell Power to make all of those 21. That's six classes that have a caster level of 21, so your Knight of the Weave caster level is equal to your class level (3) plus all other caster levels (21+21+21+21+21+21) for a total caster level of 129 but just for Knight of the Weave. So Arcane Disciple for Holy Word automatically kills anything nongood with 119 or fewer HD, and Wings of Flurry deals 129d6 damage (average 450).

But seriously, you've got so few daily uses of those things and no spells higher level than 7th as a 20th level character, it's just not worth it. Shenanigans like this may look good on paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13398974&postcount=56), and they're fun as a theoretical exercise, but that's why theoretical optimization is differentiated from practical optimization. One is fun to do on paper or a message board but not fun to bring to a gaming table, the other is fun to bring to a gaming table and often still fun to do on paper or a message board. Please learn the difference before you accidentally try to actually play a theoretical build.

[MaelstromWrath]

Whoa! Was not expecting such a long and detailed reply. Thank you very much. I read through the whole post, but will probably read through it about 4-5 more times to make sure I absorb all the information you provided.

I agree with what you said about the build not working by RAW, but wanted someone to confirm. So, thanks for that. Another unexpected feature of your post, you included builds that do accomplish the intended goal, so thanks once again.

As far as the differences between theoretical optimization & practical optimization. I don't have much time to actually play, so TO is about the most enjoyment I can get out of D&D. When I do get a chance to play, I try to play an effective, but not necessarily optimized (whether theoretical or practical) character.

Thanks again! :smallsmile:

:edit: Ok, editing this after reading through your post a bunch more. The build confuses spellcasting level with caster level. I get that. but what about the end wizard level. I think it's possible to get that to 18, but not sure (Wizard5+Incantatrix3+Ultimate Magus10=18, no?) {some trickery needs to be done to keep wizard at a low "caster level" in order for the 3 special levels of Ultimate Magus to be able to apply to it, but not that hard, I don't think}

:anotheredit: After reading through probably about 10 times... I think you say that Master Spellthief & Practiced Spellcaster(spellthief) don't work together. Is this true?
Also, I looked at that necromancer build you linked... Good times. :smallwink: