Wiz or Sorc, Please help me choose

[thecrimsondawn]

So I have been tracking down with the help of TGP, all sources of int bonuses, and other nice goodies to make the most powerful Wizard I could think of. I decided on Wiz as I would have no limit to the number of spells I would have known, giving me absolute control over any situation that I can foresee before hand
With class options that let me give up a bonus feat to be able to cast any divination spell in the game, mixed up with Incantrix persist buffs, and metamagic that takes away the save from spells, I thought I was doing rather well....

That was until I started looking at what race to play.

Of course mr Kobold in all his glory is on the list, but as far as the argument goes, I am on the side that he is NOT a true dragon with the feat, so I wont go for anything with true dragon as a prereq, but I did notice that there are quite a few things that add levels of sorc (loredragon) (white dragonspawn), knowstones, and a metric ton of templates and add-ons that boost CHA

So I am really at a loss at what to choose.

This guy is going to be passing level 20 when he is made, so loosing a couple of caster levels is ok (no more then 4) if the payoff is worth it, but from an absolute power perspective (option of using the spell point system) who do you think wins out in the long run?

While writing this the thought of the Ultimate Magus came to mind, so I am going to read up on him for a moment, but please do share any options or advice you guys have :)

[Troacctid]

I was going to say Wizards are just better because they're effectively always a level higher than Sorcerers, but then you mentioned kobolds and I thought, well, if you take the rite of passage... but then you mentioned that spell points are in play. In that case, Wizards are just STRICTLY better than Sorcerers because spell points are stupid.

[gorfnab]

Check out the Easy Bake Wizard in my signature. It is a Wizard build that functions without a spellbook and can cast a good chunk of its spells spontaneously.

[thecrimsondawn]

I was going to say Wizards are just better because they're effectively always a level higher than Sorcerers, but then you mentioned kobolds and I thought, well, if you take the rite of passage... but then you mentioned that spell points are in play. In that case, Wizards are just STRICTLY better than Sorcerers because spell points are stupid.

Spell points is an "option" not a rule
They work ungodly well for duel progression when you have say - a whole spell list to cast from :P
Also, while it is true Wizards get spells before Sorcs, with additions that give sorc levels that is flipped around. There is also the fact that no matter who I pick, We will both be getting 9th level spells so when you get spells matters less in this case

[Red Fel]

Kobold arcane caster? Sorcerer. Why? Draconic Rite of Passage and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Draconic Rite of Passage gives you a 1/day SLA of a 1st-level Sorc spell; Greater Draconic Rite basically gives you +1 Sorc level, which is insane.

Look, a Wizard will give you more versatility, no question. Being able to prepare pretty much everything is awesome. But by the same token, a Sorcerer is no slouch, and Kobolds are tailor-made for the class. Consider also the possibility of taking the Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution levels (Dragonblood Sorc 4 is pure awesome, and 7 isn't necessarily terrible; 1 is only bad if you planned to do something with that familiar, such as Drakken Familiar or Metamagic Specialist). Note that if you take Dragonwrought, you're technically no longer a Dragonblood, which might prevent the racial substitution levels.

[thecrimsondawn]

Kobold arcane caster? Sorcerer. Why? Draconic Rite of Passage and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). Draconic Rite of Passage gives you a 1/day SLA of a 1st-level Sorc spell; Greater Draconic Rite basically gives you +1 Sorc level, which is insane.

Look, a Wizard will give you more versatility, no question. Being able to prepare pretty much everything is awesome. But by the same token, a Sorcerer is no slouch, and Kobolds are tailor-made for the class. Consider also the possibility of taking the Dragonblood Sorcerer racial substitution levels (Dragonblood Sorc 4 is pure awesome, and 7 isn't necessarily terrible; 1 is only bad if you planned to do something with that familiar, such as Drakken Familiar or Metamagic Specialist). Note that if you take Dragonwrought, you're technically no longer a Dragonblood, which might prevent the racial substitution levels.

Well, unless someone can quote something to prove me wrong, I am rather sure that all dragons and true dragons can take any dragon blooded option as they do indeed have the blood of dragons in them.

As a sorc, I fail to see the use of taking that RSL, even moreso if I am using the spell system.
The only way I can see it being strong is if I was trying to acquire a feature or enter a class that said it required the ability to cast something as a spell like ability.
Also compared to item familiar, unless I am missing something here, it just does not seem worth it.

[Troacctid]

Spell points is an "option" not a rule

And as long as they're an option, Wizards are just strictly better than Sorcerers.

Be a Wizard, use spell points, have more spells known than Sorcerers, plus the ability to change them whenever you want, with the same spells per day. Done.

[thecrimsondawn]

And as long as they're an option, Wizards are just strictly better than Sorcerers.

Be a Wizard, use spell points, have more spells known than Sorcerers, plus the ability to change them whenever you want, with the same spells per day. Done.

Right, that is what I was thinking!
But then of course I need to challenge that thought and I came up with, There are far more templates and races that give a CHA bonus then INT, giving me far more spell points, save DC's and a maybe 3 or 4 levels over wiz using optimizing
Sorcs can also use knowstones, giving me access to more or less any spell with a UMD check.

So I have no experience making one yet, but its looking really good for Ultimate Magus. 5 levels in wiz would give me the ability to cast every divination spell, and the level in sorc will allow me to use knowstones. 5wiz,1sorc,10 UM, and 3 Incantrix, leaving one level to spare (or a +1LA) and giving me insane spell points and options.

While I would need to focus on 2 ability scores, I have the point buy to do that in this game.

Thoughts on this? Flaws?

[bjoern]

I prefer sorcerer. They have more spells per day and don't have to prepare. Where they fall behind the wizard is in spells known. This is easily rectified by the runestaff. Every sorcerer should use a runestaff. Go through and pick all your favorite spells that you'll cast between 1-3 times per day and slap it onto a runestaff for the low cost of:
Spell Level ^2 x 200 for 3x a dday
Spell Level ^2 x150 for 2x a day
Spell Level^2 x100 for 1x a day

**one of the spells, whichever one is highest level, costs twice the amount shown above.

Seriously 10k gold dumped into a runestaff will get you a ton if utility spells.

With a runestaff with a bunch of handy situational spells, a sorcerer can be played like a batman wizard, with a spell for every problem.

[thecrimsondawn]

I prefer sorcerer. They have more spells per day and don't have to prepare. Where they fall behind the wizard is in spells known. This is easily rectified by the runestaff. Every sorcerer should use a runestaff. Go through and pick all your favorite spells that you'll cast between 1-3 times per day and slap it onto a runestaff for the low cost of:
Spell Level ^2 x 200 for 3x a dday
Spell Level ^2 x150 for 2x a day
Spell Level^2 x100 for 1x a day

**one of the spells, whichever one is highest level, costs twice the amount shown above.

Seriously 10k gold dumped into a runestaff will get you a ton if utility spells.

With a runestaff with a bunch of handy situational spells, a sorcerer can be played like a batman wizard, with a spell for every problem.

Sweet, I will have to take a look at that closer now, thanks!
Is there a limit on the number of spells that can be put into the staff? Should I make it my item familiar? can spells be added later?

[HammeredWharf]

Once you wander into true ridiculousness like epic incantatrixes and spell point tricks, optimization loses all shape and becomes a broken mess of "who can go the furthest without getting smacked down by the DM". So unfortunately I don't think there's a smart answer for this.

[Troacctid]

Right, that is what I was thinking!
But then of course I need to challenge that thought and I came up with, There are far more templates and races that give a CHA bonus then INT, giving me far more spell points, save DC's and a maybe 3 or 4 levels over wiz using optimizing
Sorcs can also use knowstones, giving me access to more or less any spell with a UMD check.

It doesn't matter how many races are available, you still only get to pick one. Unless you go dragonborn, in which case you pick two, I guess. And knowstones and runestaves cost money--money that you'd have a lot more of if you were a Wizard and didn't have to buy that stuff.

[Malimar]

Well, unless someone can quote something to prove me wrong, I am rather sure that all dragons and true dragons can take any dragon blooded option as they do indeed have the blood of dragons in them.

Correct. Races of the Dragon page 4:
Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.

[bjoern]

Sweet, I will have to take a look at that closer now, thanks!
Is there a limit on the number of spells that can be put into the staff? Should I make it my item familiar? can spells be added later?

There is no limit. So long as the DM doesn't rule 0 you. The book days that runestaves usually have 1-5 spells that share a similar theme. Keyword usually.

If your aware of item familiar then yeah, I'd take it. However I wouldn't make your staff an item familair. I'd make your item familiar a ring.

I would make your runestaff an ancestral relic from Book of exalted deeds. Make it an elvencraft longbow from RotW so that it counts as a staff and a bow. Pay masterwork 3 times and put 3 wand chambers in it. Using ancestral relic you can sacrifice gold or items to your relic to boost its value and this make it better. Sacrifice fountains_, junk loot, a big adamanyine door,/a castle. Anything you find that you can't take with you. Each time you meditate to your relic you can choose what it becomes. Therefor you can change what spells are on it. If one day you decide you don't need a runestaff (unlikely) you can change it to a badass bow or quarterstaff (thanks to elvemcraft)

Run item familiar, ancestral relic_ and custom runestaves past your DM first. They may call you a munchkin and rule 0 you.

[thecrimsondawn]

There is no limit. So long as the DM doesn't rule 0 you. The book days that runestaves usually have 1-5 spells that share a similar theme. Keyword usually.

If your aware of item familiar then yeah, I'd take it. However I wouldn't make your staff an item familair. I'd make your item familiar a ring.

I would make your runestaff an ancestral relic from Book of exalted deeds. Make it an elvencraft longbow from RotW so that it counts as a staff and a bow. Pay masterwork 3 times and put 3 wand chambers in it. Using ancestral relic you can sacrifice gold or items to your relic to boost its value and this make it better. Sacrifice fountains_, junk loot, a big adamanyine door,/a castle. Anything you find that you can't take with you. Each time you meditate to your relic you can choose what it becomes. Therefor you can change what spells are on it. If one day you decide you don't need a runestaff (unlikely) you can change it to a badass bow or quarterstaff (thanks to elvemcraft)

Run item familiar, ancestral relic_ and custom runestaves past your DM first. They may call you a munchkin and rule 0 you.

Unlikely at this point, since the DM's are effectively ALL making bat**** crazy builds to play, and the last boss of this game is prolly gonna kill us all anyway, so may as well go out in style.

Ill be honest tho, I am having fun making backstories for some of these creations :smallamused:

Looks like I will need to do some research on that idea tho as I am not as well antiquated with using my familiar as an item as I am abusing it to share links, spells, and buffs :P

[bjoern]

Unlikely at this point, since the DM's are effectively ALL making bat**** crazy builds to play, and the last boss of this game is prolly gonna kill us all anyway, so may as well go out in style.

Ill be honest tho, I am having fun making backstories for some of these creations :smallamused:

Looks like I will need to do some research on that idea tho as I am not as well antiquated with using my familiar as an item as I am abusing it to share links, spells, and buffs :P

Making an ancestral relic also be your item familiar is counterproductive. Since it's max value is set by your character level. You get more mileage if they ate separate.

[NoseFeratu]

If you're planning on blasting a lot, casting a lot of the same spells, and keeping paperwork to a minimum, go sorc.

If you want versatility and an amount of effort equivalent to going through law school, go wizard.

[DMVerdandi]

Going to agree with both easy-bake wizard, AND Spell point wizard.

That right there is potent as hell. Afterwards, I would suggest, NOT playing it like a batman wizard at all.
Go for a theme and stick with it. Your group will have more fun, and so will you. Yes, you can solve all problems with your spells, but the wizard is smart. Just as it is smart to handle everything yourself, it is even smarter to delegate tasks to others and build trust.

My own suggestion is possibly picking up War-Weaver, and Becoming more like a god wizard. Buff your party to high hell with most of your spells, and be there to support with buffs and divinations. them 60% of the time. The other 40? Possibly doing direct damage through a reserve feat.

Usually in optimization there are two main routes. Powergame like a beast or get on that "Im a role-player, not a roll-player" bandwagon (all my disgust for the second).

The middle way is choosing powerful options that last, and then gimping yourself most of the time. You are powerful, but you have the OPTION to wreck enemy booty without actually directly doing it all the time.
You could cast grease or something save or die, or you could swift cast some buff, and then cast lob some evocation spell.

Makes combat last longer(relatively) and more moves are being played. Which are good things.


Wizard over sorcerer and DEFINITELY spell-point (Vitalizing spell points are a really cool nerf) Easy bake wizards, because they can actually possess all of those toys, without actually hurting themselves in the long run. Yeah, rune staves, but it's much better to have the native ability, and then spend your money on other things.
Grey elf is a good race.