Damage to items

[Confused Dad]

I got caught in an Acid Fog with the following items:
item hp hardness
+1 Chain Shirt 30 12
+1 Buckler 15 12
Longbow 5 5
Quarterstaff 10 5
+1 Morningstar 15 7
Ring of Feather Falling 2 10

The GM says my items took 9HP, doesn't the ring get a saving throw as a magical item? What about the rest?

[Cruiser1]

I got caught in an Acid Fog with the following items:
item hp hardness
+1 Chain Shirt 30 12
+1 Buckler 15 12
Longbow 5 5
Quarterstaff 10 5
+1 Morningstar 15 7
Ring of Feather Falling 2 10

The GM says my items took 9HP, doesn't the ring get a saving throw as a magical item? What about the rest?

Items Surviving after a Saving Throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow)
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.
Acid Fog explicitly says it damages items, and has no saving throw. However, even when items do take damage, hardness applies (even for acid and sonic attacks, which is sometimes assumed to bypass hardness due to ambiguous wording elsewhere in the rules).

[Nibbens]

Acid Fog explicitly says it damages items, and has no saving throw. However, even when items do take damage, hardness applies (even for acid and sonic attacks, which is sometimes assumed to bypass hardness due to ambiguous wording elsewhere in the rules).

So after reading the above statements, after hardness the fallout would be:

item hp hardness
+1 Chain Shirt 30 12 = 0 damage due to hardness
+1 Buckler 15 12 = 0 damage due to hardness.
Longbow 5 5 = 4 damage, leaving your bow with 1 hp left. Eek!
Quarterstaff 10 5 = 4 damage on the Q-staff, leaving it with 6hp.
+1 Morningstar 15 7 = 2 damage on the M-star, leaving it with 13hp.
Ring of Feather Falling 2 10 = 0 damage to the ring.

The GM says my items took 9HP.

So none of your items were destroyed. Yay!

Also, I'm not too familiar with 3rd edition, but doesn't an items magical properties add to it's HP and Hardness? or have those been included in the equations above?

[DeltaEmil]

Most magic items have fixed hit point and hardness values (all magic rings for example have 2 hit points and hardness 10, unless specifically noted to be otherwise).

Magic weapons and magic armor/shield do gain more hit points and hardness for having a higher enhancement bonus. Generally, it's +2 to hardness, and +10 to hp for each point of enhancement bonus (not to be confused with the pluses that give special abilities).

The +1 chain shirt for example would indeed have hardness 12 (10 for being iron/steel, and +2 for being a +1 armor), and 30 hit points (20 hit points for giving a +4 bonus normally, and +10 hit points for being a +1 armor).

It looks like all items have their modified hardness and hit points already correctly applied.

[Crake]

However, even when items do take damage, hardness applies (even for acid and sonic attacks, which is sometimes assumed to bypass hardness due to ambiguous wording elsewhere in the rules).

I believe it's a 3.0 carryover, and people tend to also include force damage in that.

[Duke of Urrel]

Acid Fog explicitly says it damages items, and has no saving throw. However, even when items do take damage, hardness applies (even for acid and sonic attacks, which is sometimes assumed to bypass hardness due to ambiguous wording elsewhere in the rules).


I believe it's a 3.0 carryover, and people tend to also include force damage in that.

This is an actual rule in 3.5 as well. You can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks).


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

[lsfreak]

This is an actual rule in 3.5 as well. You can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#energyAttacks).

That's actually the ambiguous wording, it doesn't actually say they ignore hardness, because dealing damage "normally" includes hardness.

[Troacctid]

That's actually the ambiguous wording, it doesn't actually say they ignore hardness, because dealing damage "normally" includes hardness.

But dealing damage "just as they do to creatures" doesn't.

[KillingAScarab]

According to the March 2003 version of "Breaking Items and Attacking Objects" on the 3rd edition SRD (http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html), acid damage is not only subject to hardness, but it is also halved beforehand.


Objects take half damage from acid, fire, and lightning attacks. Divide the damage by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one- quarter damage to objects. Sonic attacks deal full damage to objects.Hmm... didn't know that. In 3.5, according to page 106 of Rules Compendium acid and sonic damage isn't divided before hardness is applied. The d20 SRD link which Duke of Urrel provided just words it a little differently so the part about hardness isn't in a prior paragraph. Here's that prior paragraph in Rules Compendium, emphasis is mine.

When damaging objects a few special considerations might apply. In all cases, divide or multiply the damage dealt before applying the object's hardness.If it weren't for the emphasized portion, I might consider the "as they do to creatures," portion to mean that acid and sonic energy damage always ignore hardness, since creatures don't have hardness.

As for the enchancment bonuses:


The attacker cannot damage a magic weapon or shield that has an enhancement bonus unless his own weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the weapon or shield struck. Each +1 of enhancement bonus also adds 1 to the weapon's or shield's hardness and hit points. If a combatant's shield has a +2 enhancement bonus, a combatant add 2 to its hardness and to its hit points.Looking at Confused Dad's equipment, I believe the hardness and hit points were calculated with the 3.5 version of this rule, which actually covers armor, too. You can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#magicArmorShieldsandWeapons) on the d20 SRD.

[lsfreak]

But dealing damage "just as they do to creatures" doesn't.

But does "just as they do to creatures" mean it ignores hardness, or that it's not halved like other damage? RAI may mean it deals full, no-hardness, no-halved damage, but it's not clear that's what intended, especially looking at the 3rd edition and RC versions of the text where hardness does apply.

[Troacctid]

But does "just as they do to creatures" mean it ignores hardness, or that it's not halved like other damage? RAI may mean it deals full, no-hardness, no-halved damage, but it's not clear that's what intended, especially looking at the 3rd edition and RC versions of the text where hardness does apply.

Yeah, that's why I always end up falling back on the ol' DM's "Get Out of Hardness Free" Card: "Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects." So sonic can bypass hardness against glass and acid can bypass hardness against wood, but maybe not necessarily vice versa.

[Larrx]

If acid ignored hardness, than acid flasks would be impossible, as the acid acid would eat through any container fairly quickly. That is dysfunctional enough for me to decide that the best interpretation is that it does not. :)

[Troacctid]

If acid ignored hardness, than acid flasks would be impossible, as the acid acid would eat through any container fairly quickly. That is dysfunctional enough for me to decide that the best interpretation is that it does not. :)

Certain attacks are also ineffective against certain objects. For example, you might rule that you can't cut a rope with a warhammer. I usually say that acid doesn't deal damage to glass. I'm not super familiar with chemistry, but if acid is kept in glass containers, then that only makes sense, right?

[Telok]

Certain attacks are also ineffective against certain objects. For example, you might rule that you can't cut a rope with a warhammer. I usually say that acid doesn't deal damage to glass. I'm not super familiar with chemistry, but if acid is kept in glass containers, then that only makes sense, right?
Depending on the acid glass, ceramics, and metal will contain it. Some acids are used to etch glass and will dissolve it after enough time. Others have the same effect on metal. Ceramics depend on the ceramic and the acid involved. Long term storage is also different from short term storage, where "short term" can be anywhere from hours to weeks and months depending on any and all above factors.