Help with a few houserules

[Blackhawk748]

Ok i have several houserules that im fairly comfortable using and a few that have been floating around in brain space, im here for help with the latter.

1. Fighters get Weapon Focus at level 1 (this doesnt take up a feat slot) and Weapon Specialization at level 4 (this also doesnt take a feat slot). Weapon Focus' bonus scales at +1/4 Fighter levels. (+2 at 4, +3 at 8 etc.) Weapon Specialization scales at a rate of +2/4 Fighter levels past 4 (+4 at 8, +6 at 12 etc).

2. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike increase their range by 30ft for every 3d6 you do. IE 1d6 works at 30ft, 3d6 works at 60 ft, 6d6 at 90 etc. These dice must come from class features or feats not items. (I plan on doing this for Skirmish too, but i havent quite worked it out yet)

3. When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)

So a short list of my houserules i usually use, Base Reflex save to Initiative, all non-Int based caster get at least 4+Int mod for skills, and all characters get Spot and Listen as class skills (cuz noticing stuff is important). Also ive been toying with the idea of giving everyone 2 skill points per level (or 8 at level 1) for "Background" Skills, mostly Craft or Profession skills that fit your life before adventuring.

So thoughts?

[Ephemeral_Being]

There's a Homebrew forum (www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design) that might be more useful to you.

That said, none of those house rules will break the game. What's your main goal here?

[Troacctid]

1. Fighters get Weapon Focus at level 1 (this doesnt take up a feat slot) and Weapon Specialization at level 4 (this also doesnt take a feat slot). Weapon Focus' bonus scales at +1/4 Fighter levels. (+2 at 4, +3 at 8 etc.) Weapon Specialization scales at a rate of +2/4 Fighter levels past 4 (+4 at 8, +6 at 12 etc).
As a player, this would make me more likely to dip Fighter for one or two levels, but it would not be a strong enough incentive to make me want to go past that. Yes, it's a buff, and Fighters need buffs, but the problem is that half of your levels are still completely dead, so every odd level is just as depressing as it was before.


Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike increase their range by 30ft for every 3d6 you do. IE 1d6 works at 30ft, 3d6 works at 60 ft, 6d6 at 90 etc. These dice must come from class features or feats not items. (I plan on doing this for Skirmish too, but i havent quite worked it out yet)
Increasing the range of sneak attack is great, but it seems like you're making it too complex. Why not just have it work anywhere within your weapon's first couple of range increments? That's approximately what 5th edition does, and it works fine there. The 30 feet thing was always arbitrary anyway.


When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)
Seems a little complicated, but other than that, I could see it working. But you should get the abilities at odd levels, not in place of feats.


So a short list of my houserules i usually use, Base Reflex save to Initiative, all non-Int based caster get at least 4+Int mod for skills, and all characters get Spot and Listen as class skills (cuz noticing stuff is important). Also ive been toying with the idea of giving everyone 2 skill points per level (or 8 at level 1) for "Background" Skills, mostly Craft or Profession skills that fit your life before adventuring.
I've seen all of these elsewhere and they seem good.

[Crake]

3. When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)

Isn't this just dragon magazine content?

[Flickerdart]

Ok i have several houserules that im fairly comfortable using and a few that have been floating around in brain space, im here for help with the latter.

1. Fighters get Weapon Focus at level 1 (this doesnt take up a feat slot) and Weapon Specialization at level 4 (this also doesnt take a feat slot). Weapon Focus' bonus scales at +1/4 Fighter levels. (+2 at 4, +3 at 8 etc.) Weapon Specialization scales at a rate of +2/4 Fighter levels past 4 (+4 at 8, +6 at 12 etc).
Pointless. The fighter has no problem getting flat numbers. It's things other than flat numbers that screw them up.


2. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike increase their range by 30ft for every 3d6 you do. IE 1d6 works at 30ft, 3d6 works at 60 ft, 6d6 at 90 etc. These dice must come from class features or feats not items. (I plan on doing this for Skirmish too, but i havent quite worked it out yet)
SA at 120ft range (fairly trivial to get 12d6 base if you try) means that people are suddenly dying from full attacks without a chance to engage (or with a -12 penalty to Spot, even see) the enemy. Are you comfortable with that?



3. When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)
Hard to say without knowing what the abilities are, although having a different skill list does jack when you have 2 ranks per level and Int as a dump stat.



So a short list of my houserules i usually use, Base Reflex save to Initiative, all non-Int based caster get at least 4+Int mod for skills, and all characters get Spot and Listen as class skills (cuz noticing stuff is important). Also ive been toying with the idea of giving everyone 2 skill points per level (or 8 at level 1) for "Background" Skills, mostly Craft or Profession skills that fit your life before adventuring.

So thoughts?
Well, the extra skill ranks help a bit, but not enough to matter. The initiative rule now means that two people die at 100+ feet engagement range rather than one.

Ultimately, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve with these houserules, but they are almost certainly not accomplishing it.

[Blackhawk748]

Isn't this just dragon magazine content?

Yes but my PCs are unaware of them and all of them have better skill lists than base Fighter. My goal is to reward people who stay in Fighter, ya a strange goal but i have known several players who like "just being the fighter" so i want them to be rewarded.

@Troaacctid: 1. Thought that may happen, still its a "Fighter Feat" and part of the primary "Fighter" chain, so i figured they deserved it.

2. My goal was to show you getting better, but it working on you first range increment, or 30 ft, should work fine too.

3. Never actually thought of giving it to them at various levels, will probably sit down and figure out when you should get what. The problem is is that not all of them have a lot of abilities, Bodyguard on has two IIRC. Ill think of something.

@Ephemeral_Being: My goal is to make Fighter more appealing as an actual class to stay in. (I dip it a lot but ive also gone 8 levels of Fighter, i just wish i had gotten more than feats.) My other goal is to fix that stupid 30ft Sneak Attack thing. Seriously im an amateur archer and i can hit vital spots at 60-80 feet reliably, which is largely what sneak attack is representing, so the fact that a lvl 20 Rogue cant Sneak attack past 30ft (or 60 ft with Crossbow Sniper) is ridiculous.

[Ephemeral_Being]

@Ephemeral_Being: My goal is to make Fighter more appealing as an actual class to stay in. (I dip it a lot but ive also gone 8 levels of Fighter, i just wish i had gotten more than feats.) My other goal is to fix that stupid 30ft Sneak Attack thing. Seriously im an amateur archer and i can hit vital spots at 60-80 feet reliably, which is largely what sneak attack is representing, so the fact that a lvl 20 Rogue cant Sneak attack past 30ft (or 60 ft with Crossbow Sniper) is ridiculous.

Hey! Another real-life archer.

Yeah, my friend refuses to play a Rogue in DnD partially because he has the same complaint that you do. The inability to plug someone through the heart or head from over 30 feet away is ludicrous. He had the same problem with only being able to recover 50% of arrows that miss the target, and 0% of the ones that connect. Apparently, arrows are almost always recoverable. Which I didn't know. We house-ruled that away for realism's sake.

I don't have a real comment on the Fighter thing. The Sneak Attack range increase I like, because it gives the party a reason to look around and make decent spot checks. You can actually start combat at range with a decent, surprise blow instead of having to wait for them to get within charging distance. Which entirely defeats the purpose of ambushing a Barbarian.

[Blackhawk748]

Hey! Another real-life archer.

Yeah, my friend refuses to play a Rogue in DnD partially because he has the same complaint that you do. The inability to plug someone through the heart or head from over 30 feet away is ludicrous. He had the same problem with only being able to recover 50% of arrows that miss the target, and 0% of the ones that connect. Apparently, arrows are almost always recoverable. Which I didn't know. We house-ruled that away for realism's sake.

I don't have a real comment on the Fighter thing. The Sneak Attack range increase I like, because it gives the party a reason to look around and make decent spot checks. You can actually start combat at range with a decent, surprise blow instead of having to wait for them to get within charging distance. Which entirely defeats the purpose of ambushing a Barbarian.

Did the same thing, you can generally recover an arrow if it isnt damaged, which they usually arent, i have a flat 75% chance to recover them.

And thats why i did it, yes you can abuse the system (this is 3.5 we're talking about) but if the Rogue is in range to Sneak Attack the Barbarian he is gonna be paste in about 6 seconds, because the Barbarian doesnt really care about those few d6s you just chucked. Unless your Flikerdart's Rogues, then you throw as many dice as a Shadowrun player :smalltongue:

[Darrin]

1. Fighters get Weapon Focus at level 1 (this doesnt take up a feat slot) and Weapon Specialization at level 4 (this also doesnt take a feat slot). Weapon Focus' bonus scales at +1/4 Fighter levels. (+2 at 4, +3 at 8 etc.) Weapon Specialization scales at a rate of +2/4 Fighter levels past 4 (+4 at 8, +6 at 12 etc).


Not having enough feats is not the fighter's problem. The fighter's problem is he needs to be able to move + full attack, and he needs something to use his swift actions for. So consider giving the fighter a swift action = extra 5' step at 5th, Pounce at 7th, extra move action at 9th, and so forth.



2. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike increase their range by 30ft for every 3d6 you do. IE 1d6 works at 30ft, 3d6 works at 60 ft, 6d6 at 90 etc. These dice must come from class features or feats not items. (I plan on doing this for Skirmish too, but i havent quite worked it out yet)


1d6 skirmish is sorta equivalent to 2d6 sneak attack. So... every 3d6 skirmish = +60'? Considering a Scout 20 only gets 5d6, that's only 90', or 120' if he manages to get 6d6.



3. When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)


Too complicated. Might be easier to just say, "Pick two skills, they are now class skills for you."

[Ephemeral_Being]

Did the same thing, you can generally recover an arrow if it isnt damaged, which they usually arent, i have a flat 75% chance to recover them.

And thats why i did it, yes you can abuse the system (this is 3.5 we're talking about) but if the Rogue is in range to Sneak Attack the Barbarian he is gonna be paste in about 6 seconds, because the Barbarian doesnt really care about those few d6s you just chucked. Unless your Flikerdart's Rogues, then you throw as many dice as a Shadowrun player :smalltongue:

He's. He's not wrong. There are ways to get a TON of Sneak Attack dice. It basically boils down to just dipping into a bunch of classes. Focus on that, and you get more dice than a straight Rogue would. That, plus Craven gets you a ton of damage.

The fact that you aren't going to count things like Hunter's Eye, or bonuses from equipment but only the BASE Sneak Attack dice for the range boost helps a lot, though. If you didn't, then this might get slightly stupid.

[JohnDaBarr]

Ok i have several houserules that im fairly comfortable using and a few that have been floating around in brain space, im here for help with the latter.

1. Fighters get Weapon Focus at level 1 (this doesnt take up a feat slot) and Weapon Specialization at level 4 (this also doesnt take a feat slot). Weapon Focus' bonus scales at +1/4 Fighter levels. (+2 at 4, +3 at 8 etc.) Weapon Specialization scales at a rate of +2/4 Fighter levels past 4 (+4 at 8, +6 at 12 etc).

2. Sneak Attack and Sudden Strike increase their range by 30ft for every 3d6 you do. IE 1d6 works at 30ft, 3d6 works at 60 ft, 6d6 at 90 etc. These dice must come from class features or feats not items. (I plan on doing this for Skirmish too, but i havent quite worked it out yet)

3. When playing a Fighter select one of the following; Bodyguard, Commander, Corsair, Exoticist, Fencer, Horsemen, Kensai (the living "sword"), Knight, Shield Bearer, Survivalist, or Targeteer. This determines your skill list as well as several abilities you can trade feats out for. Also you add the non Fighter bonus feats from the list to your Fighter bonus feat list. (to clarify you still have access to the entire Fighter bonus feats list, you just add the ones under the variant that arent usually on the list.)

So a short list of my houserules i usually use, Base Reflex save to Initiative, all non-Int based caster get at least 4+Int mod for skills, and all characters get Spot and Listen as class skills (cuz noticing stuff is important). Also ive been toying with the idea of giving everyone 2 skill points per level (or 8 at level 1) for "Background" Skills, mostly Craft or Profession skills that fit your life before adventuring.

So thoughts?

Everything you listed here is fine and far from broken and I believe most of these houserules are quite common in many games.

Only thing I would like to add is regarding the ''how to fix the Fighter'' topic and I believe that giving more feats and some skill points isn't the solution. I find that the ''fighter problem'' is more broader issue and, in my opinion, is best resolved by allowing Tier 4 (maybe some Tier 3) and lower classes the ability to play a gestalt characters with other Tier 4 or lower classes without penalties. This allows for much more versatility for players but doesn't create characters that are near Tier 1 or even Tier 2 power level. As much as things like Rogue/Ranger, Barbarian/Ranger, Barbarian/Paladin, Monk/Rogue etc. are stronger still a Wizard can mop the floor with them with ease. A Fighter/Rogue gestalt has a lot of options and it's waay more fun to play than a simple Fighter but it's still a Tier 4 class (borderline Tier 3 maybe). With this options are quite broad and interesting for players and dull one trick characters won't be a problem as much.

Still would like to note that I wouldn't recommend this to new players/DM's.

[Sir Chuckles]

Isn't this just dragon magazine content?

Yes, yes it is. Dragon #310, one that certainly makes Fighter 2 much more attractive in certain builds, as some of them gain essentially free, sometimes multiple, Exotic Proficiency and interesting options for feats. The problem is that, outside of that handful, the others are all fairly meh. For example, the Targeteer can get "Dex to Damage in place of strength" as a feat, with a few restrictions, the Exoticist can grab a Disarm and Trip bonus, and the Kensai can trade to-hit for extra attacks.

...the problem is that these replace feats. While I'd gladly pay a feat, especially a first level Fighter bonus feat, for dex to damage, I wouldn't do the same for the 30ft Slow Fall that only works when you're next to cloth or rope of the Corsair. Or the Kensai ability to take a -6 to all attacks for that turn for two extra attacks. Or the Horseman's giving your mount your shield bonus as a move action with a DC15 Ride.

As others stated, flat numbers are simply not what would make the Fighter more enticing. Your best bet, if you're going to be giving everyone these Dragon variants, is to make the special abilities odd level class features, rather than feats. Some of the key and rooted in flavor ones, such as Vital Aim and Strange Strike, could even be given at first level. Some of them have feat prerequisites of their own, such Targeteer's -5 for two extra ranged attacks, and I say just remove them. Then add the skill lists and feat lists to the base Fighter's lists, and bump up the skills points from 2+Int to 4+Int.

The skill lists would be strongly appreciated by just about anyone, as many of them include Hide/Move Silently or Diplomacy. The Knight even gets Heal. The feat lists don't add much, however. Most of the list is already included in the standard bonus feats, and a majority of the additions are the +2/+2 skill feats. The notable exceptions being Leadership (!) and Iron Will/Lightning Reflexes/Great Fortitude. The latter being good for Prestige prereqs.

[Ashtagon]

Hey! Another real-life archer.

He had the same problem with only being able to recover 50% of arrows that miss the target, and 0% of the ones that connect. Apparently, arrows are almost always recoverable. Which I didn't know. We house-ruled that away for realism's sake.

And another one here.

And the recoverable arrows thing is both true and not true. Modern tournament arrows are designed to be recoverable. Arrows back in olden days intended to be used in war were designed so that the heads would break off inside their target, making them unusable for enemy archers and making the would much more serious is care wasn't taken in removing it.