Defending against stuff that don't not allow no saves

[Jowgen]

One can have sky-high saves and a massive pool of re-rolls to avoid nat 1s, but there is stuff out there that just don't care about any of that.

a) what are some of the worst no-save offenders in your minds?

b) what are you favourite defences against them nasties?

[Necromancy]

The worst no save ever is the save vs headache from reading this thread's title

[Flickerdart]

No-save stuff tends to have a bunch of caveats attached. Immunities and a sky-high touch AC will help you avoid everything really nasty except the zaniest Mailman style damage dumps.

[(Un)Inspired]

Frostfell is pretty nasty even if you make the save.

Really though, having a cadre of planar bound Solars all full attacking at once can be a pretty devastating no save offense.

[FocusWolf413]

The worst no save ever is the save vs headache from reading this thread's title

*ba dum tsssss*

[ImperatorV]

The worst no save ever is the save vs headache from reading this thread's title

I think this is the first time I've ever seen a triple negative.

[Zanos]

Based on the title the best defense is to raise your saves. :p

Limited wish-> geas
Forcecage
Irresistable whatever
Enervation
Orbs of X

Being undead helps a lot, as does using hide life to be immune to health damage.

A cheap and effective way to block most things on many characters is to umd a wand of wings of cover to interrupt LoE.

[kardar233]

I think the Blasphemy line is the worst of the bunch, personally. Boost caster level enough and you're dead, arguably not prevented by Death Ward or similar, and pretty much the only good ways to deal with it are Silence (which often nerfs you as much as them) or Greater Spell Immunity.

Divine Denial (Exemplars of Evil) gives +2 on saves against Divine spells and if they don't allow a save you get one anyway.

Apart from Steadfast Determination is there any way to make a 1 not an auto-fail? I once had a nearly invulnerable character transported to a very unpleasant place because I didn't have enough save rerolls to deal with a few thousand Wishes, so that would be really helpful.

[Zanos]

Pride domain power will let you reroll 1s. You can also cast alter fortune as an immediate action to reroll any d20 for 200xp, which is a bargain to not die horribly.

[P.F.]

Orbs, rays, etc: High touch AC
Blasphemy, Power Word, etc: High SR
Acid Fog: High elemental damage resistance
Forcecage: No defense, although in and of itself, forcecage is harmless.

[lsfreak]

On the defensive side, seconding Wings of Cover as probably one of the biggest, most straightforward ones.

On the offense, negative levels are a big one (saves are often just to remove the negative level 24 hours later), but immunity to death effects should be easy to get a hold of by the time most of those come into play and many need attack rolls so there's alternative defenses. If your DM is one to throw Fel Draining Sonic Snap on you at 1st level, though...

[Andezzar]

Don't let the caster get LoE or even LoS.

[Curmudgeon]

Amplifying Andezzar's point, don't be visually detectable. True Seeing foils pretty much all magical means of not being seen, so use mundane Hide. Some form of Hide in Plain Sight will enable you to Hide. The good versions of HiPS are generally Supernatural, but you only use the magic to enable a Hide check and that's always when it's your turn. When it's not your turn there's nothing magical (for someone with Arcane Sight, say) to detect. Add Darkstalker and you'll be able to Hide quite a lot.

If you can't be detected you can't be targeted by magic. That leaves area effects, which generally allow Reflex saving throws. Get evasion and boost your save.

[Andezzar]

Another way is to find a way to act in the middle of your move and move from total cover into the open and back and attack/cast a spell /etc. in the middle.

[ericgrau]

BFC is a big one. For that some kind of teleportation is nice, particularly swift/immediate action that doesn't require a concentration check. Otherwise you're trading actions or worse, paying multiple actions for the foe's one action depending on how you roll on your check. Anklets of translocation are the easy way out, perhaps even broken. As a utility item they don't seem so bad, as a combat item they are OP. It requires line of effect so it doesn't work against wall spells and some other barriers, but since these don't trigger a concentration check to cast nor otherwise restrict movement you can employ an alternate means of teleporting past them. I mean at 1400 gp the anklets are way under-priced and you can afford to combo with something else.

Likewise other no save spells tend to have alternate defenses against them: touch AC, immunities, SR, etc. You can't defend against everything but then again that's true in general.

[DeAnno]

True Seeing foils pretty much all magical means of not being seen, so use mundane Hide.

You could also be mobile and stay over 120 feet away and under Superior Invisibility, but this is admittedly tricky to do.

[Elder_Basilisk]

The big offenders: Blasphemy, Irresistable dance

The answers (not necessarily to those but to no-save abilities in general):
Spell Immunity
Spell Resistance (holy aura)
ring of counterspells (and greater ring of counterspells)
Mind Blank
Readied Action to disrupt spellcasting
potions of lesser restoration
Heal and Mass Heal
Teleport (get the heck out of there)

[Loxagn]

If you're worried about spells that are 'no-save-just-lose', oftentimes those spells require attack rolls to hit, and there is one spell I've encountered that, without fail, hoses any spell that requires an attack roll.

Look up Elminster's Effulgent Epuration. You're welcome. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

The big offenders: Blasphemy, Irresistable dance

The answers (not necessarily to those but to no-save abilities in general):
Spell Immunity
Spell Resistance (holy aura)
ring of counterspells (and greater ring of counterspells)
Mind Blank
Readied Action to disrupt spellcasting
potions of lesser restoration
Heal and Mass Heal
Teleport (get the heck out of there)

And the Silence spell.

[Curmudgeon]

The answers (not necessarily to those but to no-save abilities in general):
...
Readied Action to disrupt spellcasting
Your readied action won't work against componentless spells. Ready has no Divination magic to let your character perceive the triggering action. It uses the character's senses, so you can't Ready an action to something the character can't see/hear/feel. You can't respond to someone casting a no-component spell any more than you can respond to someone grabbing a wand on the other side of a hill.

When we're talking about defending against the really nasty stuff of D&D, Silent Spell and Still Spell metamagics are on that list.

[(Un)Inspired]

Your readied action won't work against componentless spells. Ready has no Divination magic to let your character perceive the triggering action. It uses the character's senses, so you can't Ready an action to something the character can't see/hear/feel. You can't respond to someone casting a no-component spell any more than you can respond to someone grabbing a wand on the other side of a hill.

When we're talking about defending against the really nasty stuff of D&D, Silent Spell and Still Spell metamagics are on that list.

Where does it say that the character must perceive the triggering action? How do we know it uses the character's senses? From the SRD:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).

Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

It looks like you just specify what you want to ready your actin for.

[Flickerdart]

Where does it say that the character must perceive the triggering action? How do we know it uses the character's senses? From the SRD:

It looks like you just specify what you want to ready your actin for.
You have to make the decision to activate your readied action. Nothing obligates the DM to tell you the condition has been met.

[Snowbluff]

You have to make the decision to activate your readied action. Nothing obligates the DM to tell you the condition has been met.
I'm going to tell my players this on next time they're being attacked.

Not to mention it doesn't apply here. He has to incant the spell first, right? "He casts Blasphemy," then he resolves it. You know it happens. He can't counterspell or disrupt until he casts it either way. To get the effect, the cast has to cast it first. Not to mention that their are many spells and effects that alert to spells cast in an area, like Battle Magic Perception.

[(Un)Inspired]

You have to make the decision to activate your readied action. Nothing obligates the DM to tell you the condition has been met.

I'm not sure how we can determine anyone's obligations to anyone else but it seems that, according to the rules, I could ready an action to react to an incoming spell, if anytime during the next turn that spell comes up I get to react to it with no mention of sending it or not.

Perhaps the DM isn't obliged to tell me that the spell happened ? Perhaps the DM isn't obliged to even sit down and DM a game for me? Whether the DM wants to inform me OOC or not I believe that rules legally my character gets to take his readied action in reaction to his conditions being met whether or not he knows that his conditions have been met.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not sure how we can determine anyone's obligations to anyone else but it seems that, according to the rules, I could ready an action to react to an incoming spell, if anytime during the next turn that spell comes up I get to react to it with no mention of sending it or not.
Readied action: Shoot an arrow at that tree as soon as the BBEG is in the city.

Wait for 6 seconds.

Action doesn't go off.

Alright, I guess he's not here, we can relax for now.

Your interpretation of the rules is not only incorrect, but ripe for abuse of all kids.

[squiggit]

Readied action: Shoot an arrow at that tree as soon as the BBEG is in the city.

Wait for 6 seconds.

Action doesn't go off.

Alright, I guess he's not here, we can relax for now.

Your interpretation of the rules is not only incorrect, but ripe for abuse of all kids.
Being "ripe for abuse" doesn't necessarily make it wrong, not in 3.5.

[(Un)Inspired]

Readied action: Shoot an arrow at that tree as soon as the BBEG is in the city.

Wait for 6 seconds.

Action doesn't go off.

Alright, I guess he's not here, we can relax for now.

Your interpretation of the rules is not only incorrect, but ripe for abuse of all kids.

Just because it's ripe for abuse doesn't make it incorrect. Can you point out how your scenario is incorrect?

[Jowgen]

Your readied action won't work against componentless spells. Ready has no Divination magic to let your character perceive the triggering action. It uses the character's senses, so you can't Ready an action to something the character can't see/hear/feel. You can't respond to someone casting a no-component spell any more than you can respond to someone grabbing a wand on the other side of a hill.

When we're talking about defending against the really nasty stuff of D&D, Silent Spell and Still Spell metamagics are on that list.

Couldn't a Spellcraft check allow for this via the "identify spell being cast" function? To my knowledge, being able to cast no-component does not come with an inherent "unidentifiable casting" benefit. :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

Couldn't a Spellcraft check allow for this via the "identify spell being cast" function? To my knowledge, being able to cast no-component does not come with an inherent "unidentifiable casting" benefit. :smallconfused:
Your knowledge is incomplete, but all you have to do to see why it doesn't work is look at the skill entry.
Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

[sideswipe]

Readied action: Shoot an arrow at that tree as soon as the BBEG is in the city.

Wait for 6 seconds.

Action doesn't go off.

Alright, I guess he's not here, we can relax for now.

Your interpretation of the rules is not only incorrect, but ripe for abuse of all kids.

in all of my groups this is solved by ready actions only being allowed in combat, otherwise the BBEG is continuously taking ready actions against the adventurers that are possibly about to barge in.

also logically your character being aware of it happening would be a factor. if they can cast the spell without you knowing in any way then i would not allow it to trigger.

[Curmudgeon]

in all of my groups this is solved by ready actions only being allowed in combat, otherwise the BBEG is continuously taking ready actions against the adventurers that are possibly about to barge in.
That's not really a solution. There's an obvious workaround: just start a bar fight when you want some free Divination magic via Ready. Deck some poor drunkard, then use Ready for yes/no answers to deep questions while your party members pound on the poor drunkard's friends.

The better solution just requires sufficient attention to the rule text.
Readying an Action

You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
response
-noun

2. Biology. any behavior of a living organism that results from an external or internal stimulus. A biological response requires a biological stimulus. If your character's biology can't perceive the triggering condition, there's no stimulus and consequently no response.

[sideswipe]

That's not really a solution. There's an obvious workaround: just start a bar fight when you want some free Divination magic via Ready. Deck some poor drunkard, then use Ready for yes/no answers to deep questions while your party members pound on the poor drunkard's friends.

The better solution just requires sufficient attention to the rule text. A biological response requires a biological stimulus. If your character's biology can't perceive the triggering condition, there's no stimulus and consequently no response.

that was my exact second point....

[Curmudgeon]

that was my exact second point....
Really? I don't see it that way. What you wouldn't allow affects just your group. What the rules don't allow has broader impact.

[lord_khaine]

in all of my groups this is solved by ready actions only being allowed in combat, otherwise the BBEG is continuously taking ready actions against the adventurers that are possibly about to barge in.

also logically your character being aware of it happening would be a factor. if they can cast the spell without you knowing in any way then i would not allow it to trigger.

I am pretty sure there are also somewhere directly in the books where its stated you can only ready an action in combat.

[sideswipe]

Really? I don't see it that way. What you wouldn't allow affects just your group. What the rules don't allow has broader impact.

"also logically your character being aware of it happening would be a factor. if they can cast the spell without you knowing in any way then i would not allow it to trigger."

pretty sure that means basicly the same as "if you cannot biologically detect it you are unaware and it does not trigger."


I am pretty sure there are also somewhere directly in the books where its stated you can only ready an action in combat.

i remember it too, i just cant find it (im not trying to hard) so im not saying its a rule.

[Curmudgeon]

I am pretty sure there are also somewhere directly in the books where its stated you can only ready an action in combat.
Ready is a special initiative action. Combat starts when you roll initiative. If you're not using combat timing, you don't have any initiative to modify.

[Jowgen]

Your knowledge is incomplete, but all you have to do to see why it doesn't work is look at the skill entry.

I, in fact, blanked that entirely. Would it be too much of a longshot to instead consider the casting of a no-component spell a "strange or unique magical effect" to be understood with a DC 30+ spellcraft? :smallconfused:

[Karl Aegis]

The best defense is probably not being a valid target for the ability. Not being within range, not having line of effect, not having line of sight, etc. However, nothing really saves you from Love's Pain.

[Curmudgeon]

Would it be too much of a longshot to instead consider the casting of a no-component spell a "strange or unique magical effect" to be understood with a DC 30+ spellcraft? :smallconfused:
I don't see Still Spell and Silent Spell, core metamagic feats available to all spellcasters, as either strange or unique.

[Jowgen]

I don't see Still Spell and Silent Spell, core metamagic feats available to all spellcasters, as either strange or unique.

It is a long-shot I suppose. Here is a better alternative: "Metamagic feats that eliminate components of a spell don’t eliminate the attack of opportunity provoked by casting a spell while threatened." AoO are in response to a lapse in an opponent's defences, which are surely something noticeable.

It's not perfect, but surely something that can be built upon as part of a strategy to respond to no-component casting using readied actions.

[Snowbluff]

I don't see Still Spell and Silent Spell, core metamagic feats available to all spellcasters, as either strange or unique.

Battlemagic Perception, etc. Adding circumstances, moving goalposts, rearranging gnomes.

[Curmudgeon]

AoO are in response to a lapse in an opponent's defences, which are surely something noticeable.
The lapse in defensive measures is noticeable. The reason for that lapse is not necessarily apparent. Are they casting a componentless spell, or concealing a small magical bauble on their person? Maybe they're preparing a splash weapon behind their shield, or Searching a 5' space nearby. Every one of those actions will provoke an attack of opportunity.

[Jowgen]

The lapse in defensive measures is noticeable. The reason for that lapse is not necessarily apparent. Are they casting a componentless spell, or concealing a small magical bauble on their person? Maybe they're preparing a splash weapon behind their shield, or Searching a 5' space nearby. Every one of those actions will provoke an attack of opportunity.

It's not perfect, but some things ought to be more obvious than others, which I think can be worked with. Readying an action to attack in response to "enemy lowering defence for no apparent reason" or "attack when defences are lowered, unless there is clear evidence enemy isn't casting" won't nessecarily work 100% of the time, but the success rate ought to be decent. Won't be as effective as locking them down with something probably invovling mage-slayer, but it is at least some defence against something that's otherwise rather hard to defend against.

Oh, I guess mage-slayer + reach + high dpa + etc. is can be a decent method to forstall no-save nightmares.

[atemu1234]

The worst no save ever is the save vs headache from reading this thread's title

I'm fairly certain this thread's title gave me my current nosebleed.

Anyway, there are very few things that cannot be protected against, unless you use the irresistible spell feat from KoK.

[RolkFlameraven]

So a Psion who makes his concentration check to not have a display can't be hit by a readied action, as every power he has is both silent and stilled automatically... yet he still provokes an AoO if someone is standing next to him. Did I get that right?

I'm pretty sure that casting a spell, even without finger wiggling and speaking in tongues, is something that people know you are doing; they probably don't know WHAT you are casting, but they do know you ARE casting/manifesting and can still use their readied action to hit you as you do so.

[Elder_Basilisk]

So a Psion who makes his concentration check to not have a display can't be hit by a readied action, as every power he has is both silent and stilled automatically... yet he still provokes an AoO if someone is standing next to him. Did I get that right?

I'm pretty sure that casting a spell, even without finger wiggling and speaking in tongues, is something that people know you are doing; they probably don't know WHAT you are casting, but they do know you ARE casting/manifesting and can still use their readied action to hit you as you do so.

That would be my RAW take as well. The Spellcraft DC is to identify a spell being cast in combat, not to recognize that a spell is being cast. That said, as a DM, I'd probably allow a bluff check to disguise a componentless spell (or manifestation if I were allowing psionics).

The whole discussion is a long ways from the initial topic. Most of the time, the no-save spells you might worry about are not being cast stilled and silent. They are usually just being cast normally. (Or, in the case of Blasphemy, it's a spell-like-ability). Adding still and silent adds two spell levels absent strange prestige class combinations and if the enemy wizard is going to cast a stilled Irressistable Dance, I'm glad he didn't cast a normal time stop.

[Curmudgeon]

That said, as a DM, I'd probably allow a bluff check to disguise a componentless spell (or manifestation if I were allowing psionics).
There's nothing to disguise in that case. If the spell isn't componentless you can use Sleight of Hand to obscure both somatic and verbal components of your spellcasting; see Races of Stone on page 133 or Rules Compendium on page 117.