Monk vs Brawler

[andhaira]

So, I have played neither of these two classes in Pathfinder, and I was wondering which is the superior class in combat?

For the sake of argument let's go with vanilla Monk and vanilla Brawler, no archtypes.

For myself, the one thing I wish monks had that Brawlers have is the Knockout Blow ability. Is there anyway Monks can do something similar, like with a feat?

[animewatcha]

Before answers are given, keep in mind that melee tactics toolbox just barely dropped for people that get it early. This even includes a feat that is 'dervish dance-ish' light.

[NoseFeratu]

The Brawler is basically what the Monk would be if done right. Paizo couldn't errata away the entire Monk class, so they made an obvious "better Monk" choice.

That's what I want to say, but the Monk has a little bit going for it. The Ki Pool ability is nice, and if you like SR, Diamond Soul is a nice bonus. Also, the Monk capstone, Perfect Self, is infinitely superior to the Brawler's... Combat maneuver. Of course, even the Fighter has a better capstone than the Brawler.

The Brawler gets nicer abilities up until that point though, and unlike the Monk its abilities synergize properly.

[Pex]

If you like to make tactical decisions brawler is better because you get to play with feats. Picking the feats you need for the fight you're in is a strong versatility. In my group every once in a while a player wants to trip or bull rush or some other maneuver. However, since they didn't say "mother may I" by taking the appropriate feat, they usually don't bother. It is a gripe against the system. You have to build your character around the maneuvers you want to do. If you're not going to do them regularly, there's no need to take the feats thus you end up never doing them. Brawler allows you to use the maneuvers when you need them. When doing something else, feats are available to improve that. That's the point of playing the class.

Monk is its own thing. You have choices to make as you level up, but once made they're set. That's true for most everyone, but the selling point of brawler is you aren't set. Fluid feat use is valuable.

[Arutema]

Before answers are given, keep in mind that melee tactics toolbox just barely dropped for people that get it early. This even includes a feat that is 'dervish dance-ish' light.

I skimmed my preview copy and didn't see it. What's the name of the feat?

[animewatcha]

I am taking this from the product discussion and tryingto find exactly what it is ( got stuff going on PC ).

http://paizo.com/products/btpy9c23/discuss&page=2?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Melee-Tactics-Toolbox#tabs

I believe feat name was circling mongoose.

[Necromancy]

No archetypes? Waaah

Tetori monk was my favorite character I have ever played

[NoseFeratu]

Archetypes are really the only thing Monks have an advantage with... But still, the Captain America Brawler archetype looks stupidly awesome.

[andhaira]

Why do peope say Brawler is Monk done right? I admit I wish Monk had more customization options for people who don't want mystic mumbo jumbo and just a pure sohei warrior...but I digress.

Doesn't Flurry of Blows give Monk an edge over the Brawler? I mean, that can be large number of attacks in a round, and if you choose feats wisely you can reduce your attack penalty so you actually hit with most of the flurries.

[Necromancy]

Tetori can hit 6 times a round with little miss chance

[Vhaidara]

Doesn't Flurry of Blows give Monk an edge over the Brawler? I mean, that can be large number of attacks in a round, and if you choose feats wisely you can reduce your attack penalty so you actually hit with most of the flurries.

Brawler actually has full BAB (so that's one of Flurry's extra attacks countered), and Brawler's Flurry ends up letting you get 3 extra attacks (TWF, ITWF, and GTWF). Basically, a Flurrying Brawler at 20 is attacking at 18/18/13/13/8/8/3, while Monk is attacking 20/20/20/15/10/5.

On top of that, the Brawler, at 20, can spend a swift action to acquire any 13 combat feats they can qualify for. That's the real capstone is picking up a lot of feats all at once with Martial Flexibility. What's that, the enemy is ranged? I just mastered Archery.

[andhaira]

Brawler actually has full BAB (so that's one of Flurry's extra attacks countered), and Brawler's Flurry ends up letting you get 3 extra attacks (TWF, ITWF, and GTWF). Basically, a Flurrying Brawler at 20 is attacking at 18/18/13/13/8/8/3, while Monk is attacking 20/20/20/15/10/5.

The advantage appears to be for the monk, for me. That last attack at 3 is useless. Unless if you got them mixed up and the former attacks are for the Monk and not the Brawler.



On top of that, the Brawler, at 20, can spend a swift action to acquire any 13 combat feats they can qualify for. That's the real capstone is picking up a lot of feats all at once with Martial Flexibility. What's that, the enemy is ranged? I just mastered Archery.

While the flexibility of the Brawler wrt feats looks like a lot of fun, I really don't know that is superior to a focused Monk build, which may not be flexible as the Brawler, but is more focused in one area.

Again, I am speaking from inexperience, which is why I came here asking you experienced folks! (at least those who have played both classes)

[Vhaidara]

The advantage appears to be for the monk, for me. That last attack at 3 is useless. Unless if you got them mixed up and the former attacks are for the Monk and not the Brawler.

How is the 3 more useless than the monk's 5? Also, weren't you the one pointing out about choosing feats to reduce the penalties? Brawlers get more feats than Monks, before Martial Versatility.


While the flexibility of the Brawler wrt feats looks like a lot of fun, I really don't know that is superior to a focused Monk build, which may not be flexible as the Brawler, but is more focused in one area.

Again, I am speaking from inexperience, which is why I came here asking you experienced folks! (at least those who have played both classes)

As I said above, even before the Martial Versatility feats that give you that flexibility, Brawler gets more feats than the Monk. You get your specialized area (probably a combat maneuver, like grapple or trip), and then just grab the feats you need for other combat styles like charging or archery on the fly. Since Brawler counts as both Monk and Fighter levels, that lets you pick up feats specific to either class with ease.

[GhorrinRedblade]

Before answers are given, keep in mind that melee tactics toolbox just barely dropped for people that get it early. This even includes a feat that is 'dervish dance-ish' light.

Please tell me that doesn't mean one more godsforsaken feat mandating use of a scimitar...

[NightbringerGGZ]

Honestly, I think the Brawler has a significant lead over the current version of the monk from a combat perspective. The monk class is still stuck with several highly situational class features unless you use archetypes to trade them out.

The Brawler gets all the benefits of the Monk when it comes to unarmed combat, including a Flurry of Blows mechanic and scaling unarmed strike damage. The only edge the Monk has is the extra movement speed.

Martial Flexibility is also quite powerful when you combo it with other class features. For instance, the fact that the Brawler counts as having both Figher and Monk levels when qualifying for feats AND waves away the "13 Intelligence" restriction on most maneuver feats. This lets you specialize in Combat Maneuvers and Style Feats on a temporary basis, whereas a Monk has to make those choices somewhat permanently.

You also get some bonuses to CMB on particular maneuvers, and to AC while wearing light armor. Toss on the ability to your Unarmed Strike damage dice with Close Weapons, avoiding the Amulet of Mighty Fists cash sink.

[andhaira]

Ok now let's bring in the archtypes.

What do you think about the Martial Artist Monk archtype versus vanilla Brawler? Which is superior in combat?

[Vhaidara]

Well, let's see what MA brings to the table.
Alignment restriction removed: This is a bigger plus than you think, though not mechanically. I personally consider alignment restriction horrible game design.
Pain Points: Trading +2 vs enchantments for +1 crit confirmation and +1 DC on SF and QP. Actually not a good trade, since crits aren't the focus of a monk build. SF isn't terrible, but is limited, as is QP.
Martial Arts Master: So, as of level 4, you get something Brawler had the whole time. And you have to trade something for it. A pretty useless something, but still something.
Exploit Weakness: Solid out of combat utility, and a decent in combat ability. However, Ki Pool is one of the more potent monk class features (Qinggong is the most powerful monk archetype for a reason)
Extreme Endurance: At low levels, this is a bad trade, but it gets better at high levels, since you no longer disqualify yourself from the most valuable buff spell in existence for a Monk (Enlarge Person)
Physical Resistance: Not a bad ability, but you're trading out of combat healing (Wholeness of Body) and a decent utility ability (Tongue of Sun and Moon) for it. Even trade
Bonus Feat: Trading tactical teleportation for a bonus feat is bad. This weakens you.
Defensive Roll: On par with Diamond Soul
Quivering Palm: Not a great ability, but more uses doesn't hurt
Greater Defensive Roll: Still an even trade imo.

Basically, Martial Artist does very little to change the basic comparison, and is actually trying to fill the same fluff roll as the Brawler (removing the ki makes them entirely a mundane fist fighter, as opposed to the ascetic warrior the monk fills). So, if anything, you just made things worse.

[Psyren]

Brawler is the stronger pure combatant, no question. Unlike monks they can dump Wis without crippling their defenses and utility, which gives them more points to allocate to their physical stats. They can wear light armor and have a better chassis, and thanks to Martial Flexibility they get far more feats overall. Maneuver Training is the icing on the cake - it works even better than a Fighter's Weapon Training when it comes to utility.

With archetypes however, Monks have more utility - firing lasers, turning into mist, seeing the future, teleportation/flight, removing an opponent's will to fight etc.


That last attack at 3 is useless.

Not at all; It's much easier to boost attacks (and penalize opponents) than it is to get more attacks, so that +3 can easily become much higher - you could get it up to, say, a 40% chance to hit. And even if you can't/don't boost it at all, it's also at least a 5% chance of squeezing in one more hit.

[master4sword]

Brawler actually has full BAB (so that's one of Flurry's extra attacks countered), and Brawler's Flurry ends up letting you get 3 extra attacks (TWF, ITWF, and GTWF). Basically, a Flurrying Brawler at 20 is attacking at 18/18/13/13/8/8/3, while Monk is attacking 20/20/20/15/10/5.

Um, Monk is also throwing 18/18/13/13/8/8/3, so neither has a flurry advantage over the other.

[Mithril Leaf]

Ok now let's bring in the archtypes.

What do you think about the Martial Artist Monk archtype versus vanilla Brawler? Which is superior in combat?

If you wanted a competitive monk you probably should have gone Sohei. Now that's a Monk archetype.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you wanted a competitive monk you probably should have gone Sohei. Now that's a Monk archetype.

If you want a competitive monk go Monk 1/ Druid 19

[Vhaidara]

Um, Monk is also throwing 18/18/13/13/8/8/3, so neither has a flurry advantage over the other.

Wow. I missed that PF did that. I always assumed Flurry worked the same way it did in 3.5, except now you get full BAB with it.

WTF Paizo?

[Necromancy]

I think that's a full bab -2 to put it on par with twf

[Dysart]

Personally it comes down to this.

Monk is a simple very self sufficient class, great as the 5th member of a party and a persons first character (simple rolling of skills and hits).

Brawler is for people with a deep understanding of the rule system who want to be an unarmed master.

If a new player was playing a brawler I think they'd forget half the abilities and use the other half incorrectly where as the monk is a lot more simple to play and has the added benefit of not needing to fight over the magic items at the low levels while the player gets used to the game style and the group.

[Vhaidara]

Monk is a simple very self sufficient class, great as the 5th member of a party and a persons first character (simple rolling of skills and hits).

You see, that's just not true. Monk is a terrible class, and a new player, given one, will likely find themselves being utterly useless. It's like a fighter, but less competent.

[Dysart]

You see, that's just not true. Monk is a terrible class, and a new player, given one, will likely find themselves being utterly useless. It's like a fighter, but less competent.

Except the fact that Fighters are generally just good at fighting and Monks get a variety of different skills allowing them to roll in most of the 'checks' (which is how someone learns to play the game better) without sacrificing much of the proficiency a Dual-Wield fighter would have.

[Necromancy]

You see, that's just not true. Monk is a terrible class, and a new player, given one, will likely find themselves being utterly useless. It's like a fighter, but less competent.

Spoken like someone who has never tried playing one

[Vhaidara]

Spoken like someone who has never tried playing one

Wrong. My first character was a monk. Usually, fights went about three rounds. I would miss every single attack, then get knocked into negatives, and watch while my cousin's fighter cleaned up shop. Game went levels 1-3, and I think I landed about one hit per level.

[Dysart]

Wrong. My first character was a monk. Usually, fights went about three rounds. I would miss every single attack, then get knocked into negatives, and watch while my cousin's fighter cleaned up shop. Game went levels 1-3, and I think I landed about one hit per level.

Bad stats and or rolling then as I've got a level 1 monk in my pathfinder game (I'm running, it's her first ever game) and she's hit more often then any other character even with a str 13 and only +1 to hit.... so go figure.

[Vhaidara]

Bad stats and or rolling then as I've got a level 1 monk in my pathfinder game (I'm running, it's her first ever game) and she's hit more often then any other character even with a str 13 and only +1 to hit.... so go figure.

I think you have excessive stats or rolling. I've had 3 players who decided to play monks as their first characters. Every one of them tells a story closer to mine than yours. Monks are a horribly weak class that struggles to achieve basic competency.

[Necromancy]

Wrong. My first character was a monk. Usually, fights went about three rounds. I would miss every single attack, then get knocked into negatives, and watch while my cousin's fighter cleaned up shop. Game went levels 1-3, and I think I landed about one hit per level.

You played a monk to level 3 once?

I respect that much expertise

Really tho, Fighters clean up on everyone at those levels

[Vhaidara]

You played a monk to level 3 once?

I respect that much expertise

Really tho, Fighters clean up on everyone at those levels

Considering that the topic at hand is introducing new player, the utter failure to contribute that is a low level monk is relevant.

The game died when the Fighter got gibbed by a crit.

[Necromancy]

So what method of measurement are you basing your judgements on?

[Vhaidara]

So what method of measurement are you basing your judgements on?

The fact that every monk I have seen has failed miserably. The fact that the monk is a frequent topic here, usually to the tone of "I'm playing a monk and I'm useless, please help". The fact that Monks are more MAD and complicated than fighters at all levels, on top of being worse in nearly every regard.

[Kantolin]

I do note, in our game, I was standing alongside a monk.

The monk rather quickly got unhappy that he did 1d6 per hit while the fighter did 2d6 per hit, meaning if the monk hits twice the two are just about equal but the fighter was better at the whole 'hitting' thing.

This was before we learned that you needed to stay put in order to full attack things too, which made everyone who was melee a bit more sad but especially the monk.

Now, I don't think monks are /unusable/ (Very little in D&D is literally unusable), but they sure need a ton of effort to hit parity.

[Necromancy]

Yes yes, everyone needs to roll those big numbers to be happy

[Necromancy]

My monk never hit those big numbers either, but I wasn't measuring by how much damage he could do in a round.

His worth was measured in how much the DM hated him due to his ability to completely ruin encounters

[Dysart]

Sorry, a little bit of information. The games I run, I usually give my characters good stats so that they can play any class they want.

If you're going with a low fantasy game, like a 15 point buy or less or even just rolled bad stats then you have no choice but to avoid the Monk class as it does need 4+ stats of average or better quality.

Though if you do get a good Dex and good Wis then in the early game you can quite easily be the tank for the entire party, the monk in my current game for instance has 19AC without any armour (obviously).

[Necromancy]

It's not just that, they have very tough saves and immunities too

I personally love Tetori monk, but to grasp why, you have to have a very good understanding of the grapple rules

[Elderand]

It's not just that, they have very tough saves and immunities too

I personally love Tetori monk, but to grasp why, you have to have a very good understanding of the grapple rules

What immunities ? Immunity to poison ? By the time you get to level 11 very few things still use poison. Immunity to magical aging ? That almost never comes up.

The problem with the pathfinder monk are the same as they were in 3.5, abilities that are highly situational and comes online too late to be relevant, so MAD even good starting stat won't help for long since MAD classes need to spend ridiculously more gold on keeping all their relevant stats up than SAD classes, which in turn leave the SAD classes with gold to duplicate and outshine the few tricks the monk has and no synergy between his abilities (can move around the battlefield but if he does he can't flurry)

[Mithril Leaf]

The issue with the Monk is that he's intended to be a mobile fighter who can hit enemies hard with his unarmed Strike. He doesn't get pounce or anything else that lets him full attack after moving, so that doesn't work. He's about as mobile as a Barbarian. He's also supposed to be able to hit frequently, which he can. However these hits rely on strength, strength that takes away from a Monk's ability to use class features. He also doesn't do that much damage with each punch at low levels. The few supernatural abilities he gets by default do very little to help that. He also can't wear armor, which is a first line of defense in melee. He gets a few bonus feats, although not enough to be a swinging factor.

All this being said, you can make a Monk good with liberal archetype application. Sohei or Zen Archer make the monk one of the best archers in the game. Flurry when applied to a bow is excellent, as you can consistently flurry instead of having to move. You also can deal with bad armor, as you'll not be on the front line, and your good saves help protect you from spells. A Sohei with a bow and a Mithril Celestial Armor can ignore his Wisdom, get just Strength and Dex, and throw out Rapid, Manyshot, Flurried arrows for excellent damage.

[Kantolin]

My monk never hit those big numbers either, but I wasn't measuring by how much damage he could do in a round.

At the time, we were pegging 'you don't have a second weapon or a shield', so that was much more about doing 'normal damage' and not 'big numbers'.


His worth was measured in how much the DM hated him due to his ability to completely ruin encounters

Now I'm fascinated. Was it his two weapon fighting flurry or his bonus feat that was helping you ruin encounters? Evasion? Still mind? Some higher level feature?


the monk in my current game for instance has 19AC without any armour (obviously).

That's very cool!

I know that sounds sarcastic but it's not - that's cool. That's why people like and are drawn to monks. The idea that you can run around and do cool and effective stuff without any gear. That's the appeal and I see it.

Unfortunately, that same 18 dex 18 wis monk can be pretty trivially equalized by the, say, 18 dex 3 wisdom NPC expert if he claps on a chain shirt. It says something for one's tankability when a random joe with less stats and a buyable item can trump it - let alone full plate or something which matches it by itself with no stats. Or a shield. Or something, I dunno, a monk who's goal is to be a tank has to have several 18s to hit parity against someone who happens to be wearing full plate who could put those stats into more useful places.

That is kinda a lot of work to hit parity.

[Dysart]

I forgot how much this forum tends to reduce things to how much money a character needs to spend and how bad it is in comparison to a T1 class...

Although it doesn't have synergy it does have freedom to us many skills and stays mobile in combat even if it doesn't get to 'pounce' from level 1.

[Mithril Leaf]

I forgot how much this forum tends to reduce things to how much money a character needs to spend and how bad it is in comparison to a T1 class...

Although it doesn't have synergy it does have freedom to us many skills and stays mobile in combat even if it doesn't get to 'pounce' from level 1.

It's not even Tier 1 that's being compared here. A Monk has to do much more work to keep up with the Brawler, a tier 3 at best.

[Kantolin]

If the campaign constantly consists of repeated: 'and suddenly everyone was naked and any animal companion / special mount / etc was eaten', or 'No you don't get equipment! Money is for losers and I'm not making you all into losers! Blargle!' then the monk probably scores a touch more highly than other nonmagical classes. How much so is up for debate - the improved unarmed strike rogue can sneak attack with punching and can hide and whatever with decent competency, I have a feeling a well built fighter can still do some serious damage unarmed - but the monk would have more of an edge than normal.

Although at that point, the disparity between the monk and the caster classes who can function without gear would be astronomical, so that's probably not a relevant point to make.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Now I'm fascinated. Was it his two weapon fighting flurry or his bonus feat that was helping you ruin encounters? Evasion? Still mind? Some higher level feature?

How about a Maneuver Master Monk in a Zelda themed game. He was a Goron named Hagon the Hulk who focused on Dirty Tricks and Trips. And brother, you better believe I worked in the speech where the Hulkster turned heel, changing it up a bit to match the Zelda universe.

When you rip off your shirt and wrap it around the enemies head (blind), pick up a chair and bash a dragon with it or land a stunning fist on said dragon letting the rest of the party kill it on round 2 of the fight while shouting the most ridiculous one-liners you can think of in a Hulk Hogan voice... that's there's some fine RP.

[Dysart]

You know what, I'm out. I honestly don't have any more interest in trying to explain Monks are fun classes for the player who isn't wanting something all powerful.

To the OP, I say Monk = new player and Brawler = experienced player.

To everyone who hates monks due to a bad experience or just forum based bias, your mother is a hamster.

[Elderand]

I forgot how much this forum tends to reduce things to how much money a character needs to spend and how bad it is in comparison to a T1 class...

Although it doesn't have synergy it does have freedom to us many skills and stays mobile in combat even if it doesn't get to 'pounce' from level 1.

Like it or not gold is a factor, a very big one.
A monk need to Raise Strength, Dex and Wisdom, he also wants to raise his constitution because everyone does.

Ignoring constitution for now a monk need to spend 90 000 on a belt to get himself +6 to both str and dex and a further 18 000 to raise wisdom.
Total 108 000.

A fighter, he just want str, he is probably happy with is trusty fullplate and starting dexterity. So all he need is a belt of giant strength for 18 000. And 1500 for the fullplate

So the fighter is 88 500 ahead in gold.

Then there's the problem of ability score increases. The fighter can put it all in strength whitout worry, monks he got to spread the love. So even if they start equal the monk need to either specialize or spend a lot more gold to end up with scores that actually end up lower.

Of course raising dex and wis also raise will and reflex.

Sure the monk has all good saves and when you look at them you think, wow the monk is like 6 points ahead of the fighter when it comes to that. In practice, the fighter can buy a cloak of resistance so now the fighter is perhaps two or three points behind in two saves and ahead in one, assuming identical starting stats, and he still has 76k more gold to spend that he can uses to further raise to saves if he wants to.

To be competitive the monk require significantly more gold than other classes. Not helped by the fact that monks items tend to be generaly overpriced compared to more generic ones.

And then other players starts grumbling because the monks either gets significantly more gold than them just to keep up or they keep finding items that benefit him at their own detriment.

And if everyone gets the same amount of gold ? Well, then everyone starts getting significantly better and have more options opened to them while the monk stays the same.

[Kantolin]

I honestly don't have any more interest in trying to explain Monks are fun classes for the player who isn't wanting something all powerful.

I was comparing to experts and warriors, both NPC classes. My complaint isn't power, it's adequacy. It takes a lot of work to get parity on a monk.

If a player's idea is 'I want to be the cool guy who fights toe to toe with people who are fully armoured', and instead they whiff all the time and are fragile, they have a good chance of being unhappy. If you have to carefully help them out to ensure they can achieve baseline skill, then that's probably not a good place for a newbie compared to a barbarian or something. Or a warlock.

[Elderand]

To the OP, I say Monk = new player and Brawler = experienced player.

I'd actually say the opposite. Brawler is probably better for a newbie, less to keep track off and a more experienced player can do some interesting stuff with monk archetypes but that requires greater system mastery.

[Kantolin]

How about a Maneuver Master Monk ... who focused on Dirty Tricks and Trips.

Hey, that sounds pretty fun! That archetype definitely helps - it among other things gives them full BAB (For maneuvers anyway), so people's idea of the grappling monk is a little more functional and less 'Whoops I missed and failed to grapple and am bad at this'.

I really wish things like this were just part of the basic monk. Then you could point to monk and say 'Yes, this will do what you're thinking' and not sigh when you as a DM get those hopeful eyes from a player and have to decide if you want them to discover things on their own or if you want to blatantly help them out.

It probably took a bit for that build to get going though, didn't it? What level did you start at, and when did you really start tripping/tricking things?

[Dysart]

Like it or not gold is a factor, a very big one.
A monk need to Raise Strength, Dex and Wisdom, he also wants to raise his constitution because everyone does.

Ignoring constitution for now a monk need to spend 90 000 on a belt to get himself +6 to both str and dex and a further 18 000 to raise wisdom.
Total 108 000.

A fighter, he just want str, he is probably happy with is trusty fullplate and starting dexterity. So all he need is a belt of giant strength for 18 000. And 1500 for the fullplate

So the fighter is 88 500 ahead in gold.

Then there's the problem of ability score increases. The fighter can put it all in strength whitout worry, monks he got to spread the love. So even if they start equal the monk need to either specialize or spend a lot more gold to end up with scores that actually end up lower.

Of course raising dex and wis also raise will and reflex.

Sure the monk has all good saves and when you look at them you think, wow the monk is like 6 points ahead of the fighter when it comes to that. In practice, the fighter can buy a cloak of resistance so now the fighter is perhaps two or three points behind in two saves and ahead in one, assuming identical starting stats, and he still has 76k more gold to spend that he can uses to further raise to saves if he wants to.

To be competitive the monk require significantly more gold than other classes. Not helped by the fact that monks items tend to be generaly overpriced compared to more generic ones.

And then other players starts grumbling because the monks either gets significantly more gold than them just to keep up or they keep finding items that benefit him at their own detriment.

And if everyone gets the same amount of gold ? Well, then everyone starts getting significantly better and have more options opened to them while the monk stays the same.

I try to get out and you pull me straight back in! :P

So you're talking about price. Alright, 15 point build and here is what I have with only choosing 1 feat and 1 item of 13,000gp for a level 7 character. (Dwarf)

AC: 20

Attacks: +8/+8+3, Damage: 2D6+0

If I had time or the interest to bother with picking other items and feats appropriate it would be better. But the fact that a level 7 character can be dealing the equivalent of Greatsword damage with it's toes... yeah, I think that's fine.

Personally if you're playing a monk and you want any bonus to your strength then you've failed. Weapon finesse, Dexterity and Wisdom bonuses only thanks. Strength is for chumps and Fighters... aka dumb chumps.
(also, the Brawler would be better at this same level with the same item just due to the feat manipulation)

[Necromancy]

Now I'm fascinated. Was it his two weapon fighting flurry or his bonus feat that was helping you ruin encounters? Evasion? Still mind? Some higher level feature?



It was his unbreakable grappling ability that let him neuter casters, gimp BBEGs, drop people into the Wizards acid pit, any number of annoying things, all while channeling my best macho man voice overs

Also once you hit 15 and get constrict you can double dip for 6 hits per round. And that's not normal swing and a miss, that's grapole checks at full bonus with a +5 to hit with them

2d10 plus 14 times 6 hits easily

[NightbringerGGZ]

It probably took a bit for that build to get going though, didn't it? What level did you start at, and when did you really start tripping/tricking things?

If I remember right, level 3. He replaced a Kokiri (halfling) cavalier build I had that was a bit too cheesy and over optimized for the group.

He actually performed fairly well as I went with a Str/Wis build and relied on party buffs for AC. We also had plenty of healing available. It helped that the custom race had a bonus to Strength and Wisdom, but even without that bonus I would have been fine. I didn't bother with flurries too often , instead I would use the fact that I had Improved Dirty Trick and Trip (monk bonus feats) to act as crowd control during the early levels.

[Mithril Leaf]

I try to get out and you pull me straight back in! :P

So you're talking about price. Alright, 15 point build and here is what I have with only choosing 1 feat and 1 item of 13,000gp for a level 7 character. (Dwarf)

AC: 20

Attacks: +8/+8+3, Damage: 2D6+0

If I had time or the interest to bother with picking other items and feats appropriate it would be better. But the fact that a level 7 character can be dealing the equivalent of Greatsword damage with it's toes... yeah, I think that's fine.

Personally if you're playing a monk and you want any bonus to your strength then you've failed. Weapon finesse, Dexterity and Wisdom bonuses only thanks. Strength is for chumps and Fighters... aka dumb chumps.
(also, the Brawler would be better at this same level with the same item just due to the feat manipulation)

Alright, take a level 7 Fighter with a Greatsword. Give him just that, and a set of standard Fullplate, with 18 Strength, and maybe 12 Dexterity.

AC: 20

Attacks: +12/+7, Damage: 2D6+7

He is hitting for more damage, more frequently. Even if just the Fighter's first attack hits and two of the Monk's hit, (an unlikely scenario) the damage is on par. This is with no feats and only 1,550 GP spent.

[Necromancy]

Oops my monk just grappled your level 7 fighter and he can't use that greatsword for jack

[Psyren]

I'd actually say the opposite. Brawler is probably better for a newbie, less to keep track off and a more experienced player can do some interesting stuff with monk archetypes but that requires greater system mastery.

Definitely this. - you can wear armor to cover for weak assignments or rolls, and aside from Martial Flexibility all of their class features are really straightforward. Even for that one, the GM or one of the more knowledgeable players can pick the feats they'll get.

Brawler's Flurry is also easier to figure out - you already have full BAB, so there is no extra "switching math" to mentally track, and their CMD is innately higher as well.

[Necromancy]

I say jump in with both feet. Do you only wanna run around all day and punch things? There is more to life!

[Mithril Leaf]

Oops my monk just grappled your level 7 fighter and he can't use that greatsword for jack

How exactly does your +0 Strength, +7 BAB Monk successfully grapple a +4 Strength, +1 Dexerity, +7 BAB fighter consistently?

[Necromancy]

Fighter has 22 CMD? Ok, so 5 from feats, 3 from str, and 7 bab is 15 with no magic items. So roll a 7 or better? Fighter has CMB 11, I have 29 or so CMD, he needs a 18 to escape

[Mithril Leaf]

Fighter has 22 CMD? Ok, so 5 from feats, 3 from str, and 7 bab is 15 with no magic items. So roll a 7 or better? Fighter has CMB 11, I have 29 or so CMD, he needs a 18 to escape

Suddenly the Monk has 16 Strength. What are his other stats? Just make a 20 point buy array. The fighter can go with 18 (racial here), 14, 14, 12, 12, 7.

[Kudaku]

I'd actually say the opposite. Brawler is probably better for a newbie, less to keep track off and a more experienced player can do some interesting stuff with monk archetypes but that requires greater system mastery.

I have to agree with this, especially if you go with Mutagenic Brawler. Martial Flexibility requires a decent amount of rules savvy to take full advantage of, but mutagens are a decent replacement that reduces the complexity of the class immensely.

Conversely monks tend to be really underwhelming unless you know to pick the right combination of ability scores, archetypes, magic gear, and feats. That said, the monk is a perfectly decent class if it's played by someone who understands the limitations of the class and how to sidestep or overcome them, provided he has access to the right material.

[Necromancy]

Suddenly the Monk has 16 Strength. What are his other stats? Just make a 20 point buy array. The fighter can go with 18 (racial here), 14, 14, 12, 12, 7.

That was actually 15 pt buy but ok. For 20 pt I'll go with 16 14 14 10 16 6 dwarf

Not seeing the surprise here...

[Psyren]

I have to agree with this, especially if you go with Mutagenic Brawler. Martial Flexibility requires a decent amount of rules savvy to take full advantage of, but mutagens are a decent replacement that reduces the complexity of the class immensely.

Agreed - and Snakebite Striker is another good "simple brawler" option, particularly for Dex-based Brawlers.

[Mithril Leaf]

That was actually 15 pt buy but ok. For 20 pt I'll go with 16 14 14 10 16 6 dwarf

Not seeing the surprise here...

Let's just look at the average numbers at CR 7. Average AC is 20. Average Attack Bonus for the first attack is 13. Average CMD is 26. Average CMB is 13. Average Hit Points is 82.

First off, with 16 AC you get hit on a 3 or better. the monster hits on Now what happens if the Monk fights a monster with those stats? Flurry of Blows is 8/8/3. One of those might hit. Grapple mod on a normal Monk is 5 (BAB) + 2 (Improved Grapple) + 3 (Strength) = +10. You need to roll a 16 or better to even initiate a Grapple. Even a Tetori Monk instead has 5 (BAB) + 4 (Greater+Improved Grapple) + 3 (Strength) = +14. You still need a 12 or better, which while not awful isn't that good either. You can boost your CMB by purchasing items that improve your Strength, but that means your AC isn't as high. You can get good AC, but that means your to-hit is still awful. A standard Monk has to spend more money to get up to parity with equal level threats.

A Brawler can meanwhile just use a Chain Shirt (Or Mithral Kikko Armor, but that's more expensive), get an array of 18,15,14,10,12,7, toss a point into Dex at level 4. He at level 7 has 18 AC in an AMF. Still not good. He however also has an Attack Routine of either 2 punches at 11/6 or can go 9/9/4. An 11 has a pretty decent chance to hit, you only need to roll a 9. This hit does an extra point of damage over a Monk. Even a Brawler's Flurry has higher to-hit than the Monk's, but he can also choose to have a single stronger shot. He can natively qualify for Improved and Greater Grapple due to higher BAB. This puts him 3 points above even the Tetori Monk in grapple ability assuming he places his free Maneuver Training in Grapple. He can directly Enhance Armor for AC which is cheaper than buying better Wisdom. It takes less money for him to have stronger abilities overall.

[Psyren]

You can boost your CMB by purchasing items that improve your Strength, but that means your AC isn't as high. You can get good AC, but that means your to-hit is still awful. A standard Monk has to spend more money to get up to parity with equal level threats.

The whole point of WBL (and the percentage guidelines for splitting it - CRB pg. 400) is that you're expected to be doing both of these things. The game flat out tells you the GM not to allow players to pour all their wealth into offense or defense, so the tradeoff is both normal and expected.

As for our Monk - assuming he is built to grapple, here are his naked stats. (BTW, you forgot Maneuver Training at 3rd in your calculations.)

Chassis at 7:

BAB = +5 (+7 to grapple.)
Str = 17 (16 base +1 from lvl 4) = +3
Improved Grapple (bonus feat) = +2
Total naked grapple mod = +12

So he only needs a 14 or better to grab CMD 26 stark naked. Now we can add cheap items to swing the odds further.

7th level WBL = 23,500gp - that's more than enough to pick up Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver and +1 Brawling Bracers of Armor (total cost = 8000) for an additional +4 to grapple. So with no archetypes or enhancement bonuses to stats (though you can afford one, you don't even need to buy the +4 belt here - potions or party buffs can tide you over easily if you're between treasure piles), he succeeds on a 10. With the +4 enhancement to Str (belt, potion or caster) he succeeds on an 8. Throw in a morale bonus (heroism or bless - caster or potion) and we can get down to succeeding on a 6.


Now keep in mind that I'm not arguing that archetypeless monks are as good as brawlers (they aren't - if I were building a grappler it would be a Tetori or MoMS), but talking about naked stats past level 3 or so is disingenuous - that's not how the game was designed to be played, so of course the math breaks down if your melee is still naked at that point in the game.

[Mithril Leaf]

The whole point of WBL (and the percentage guidelines for splitting it - CRB pg. 400) is that you're expected to be doing both of these things. The game flat out tells you the GM not to allow players to pour all their wealth into offense or defense, so the tradeoff is both normal and expected.

As for our Monk - assuming he is built to grapple, here are his naked stats. (BTW, you forgot Maneuver Training at 3rd in your calculations.)

Chassis at 7:

BAB = +5 (+7 to grapple.)
Str = 17 (16 base +1 from lvl 4) = +3
Improved Grapple (bonus feat) = +2
Total naked grapple mod = +12

So he only needs a 14 or better to grab CMD 26 stark naked. Now we can add cheap items to swing the odds further.

7th level WBL = 23,500gp - that's more than enough to pick up Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver and +1 Brawling Bracers of Armor (total cost = 8000) for an additional +4 to grapple. So with no archetypes or enhancement bonuses to stats (though you can afford one, you don't even need to buy the +4 belt here - potions or party buffs can tide you over easily if you're between treasure piles), he succeeds on a 10. With the +4 enhancement to Str (belt, potion or caster) he succeeds on an 8. Throw in a morale bonus (heroism or bless - caster or potion) and we can get down to succeeding on a 6.


Now keep in mind that I'm not arguing that archetypeless monks are as good as brawlers (they aren't - if I were building a grappler it would be a Tetori or MoMS), but talking about naked stats past level 3 or so is disingenuous - that's not how the game was designed to be played, so of course the math breaks down if your melee is still naked at that point in the game.

That was mainly to point out that in order to be competitive the Monk has to spend much more money to reach that level, and as you said, Money is Power.

[Psyren]

That was mainly to point out that in order to be competitive the Monk has to spend much more money to reach that level, and as you said, Money is Power.

Indeed, I'm not denying that for a moment - the Brawler can attain these numbers with more money left over for other things. That is what causes an archetypeless Brawler to be higher tier than an archetypeless Monk. Hence the Brawler, at least without archetypes, being the stronger of the two.

But my first point was that the "average CMD" bar, though harder for the monk to clear, is still attainable using only reasonable gear - and classed humanoids like the fighter in your example tend to have lower CMD than that average, and don't function as well in a grapple due to lacking natural weapons or unarmed strike etc.

My second point was that "you have to choose between offense and defense" is not actually a drawback - the game expects you to do exactly that, regardless of class.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I actually see the problem of the amount of cash a Monk has to spend as an argument for setting Amulet of Mighty Fists at the same price point as enchanted weapons. Its a silly design decision to keep the item so expensive.

Anyway, if we're going to bring Archetypes into the mix I think we can say the classes are pretty even overall. This is largely due to how strong some of the Monk Archetypes are.

[Mithril Leaf]

I actually see the problem of the amount of cash a Monk has to spend as an argument for setting Amulet of Mighty Fists at the same price point as enchanted weapons. Its a silly design decision to keep the item so expensive.

Anyway, if we're going to bring Archetypes into the mix I think we can say the classes are pretty even overall. This is largely due to how strong some of the Monk Archetypes are.

Oh certainly. Monk Archetypes are some of the best trade offs around.


Indeed, I'm not denying that for a moment - the Brawler can attain these numbers with more money left over for other things. That is what causes an archetypeless Brawler to be higher tier than an archetypeless Monk. Hence the Brawler, at least without archetypes, being the stronger of the two.

But my first point was that the "average CMD" bar, though harder for the monk to clear, is still attainable using only reasonable gear - and classed humanoids like the fighter in your example tend to have lower CMD than that average, and don't function as well in a grapple due to lacking natural weapons or unarmed strike etc.

My second point was that "you have to choose between offense and defense" is not actually a drawback - the game expects you to do exactly that, regardless of class.

Those are all true, the only thing about it is that the Brawler due to spending less to attain basic proficiency can have more of both offense and defense, and thus doesn't have to make as hard a trade off.

[Necromancy]

Couple points to make

Cannot put brawling on bracers
CAN put brawling on amulet of mighty fists
Also, amulet already had its price reduced

[animewatcha]

Isn't brawling light armor only? How can you put it on Amulet?

[Necromancy]

Isn't brawling light armor only? How can you put it on Amulet?


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/brawling

[grarrrg]

Isn't brawling light armor only? How can you put it on Amulet?

Well, there's Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling), and then there's Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/brawling).

Brawling can only be put on Light Armor, but Brawling can go on Brass Knuckles/Cestus/Sap/Light-Bludgeoning.
Neither of which can be put on the Amulet.

Unless he's trying to argue that an Amulet IS a "Light Bludgeoning Weapon", which is kinda silly.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Those are all true, the only thing about it is that the Brawler due to spending less to attain basic proficiency can have more of both offense and defense, and thus doesn't have to make as hard a trade off.

Agreed, though in about a month we'll have unchained which will hopefully fix much of the disparity. I strongly suspect that revamped Monk will replace the default monk at my tables. Giving it full BAB will be a huge start.

Has anybody compiled all the non-class specific bonuses to CMB that are out there? I've been of the opinion that Combat Maneuvers aren't anywhere near as bad in actual practice as they're made out to be on message boards for awhile now, but I think with all these new options coming out in the past year there's a possibility that CMB scores can be even better than I had assumed.


Well, there's Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/brawling), and then there's Brawling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/brawling).

Brawling can only be put on Light Armor, but Brawling can go on Brass Knuckles/Cestus/Sap/Light-Bludgeoning.
Neither of which can be put on the Amulet.

Unless he's trying to argue that an Amulet IS a "Light Bludgeoning Weapon", which is kinda silly.

Ya, I'm not sure the Brawling weapon enchant could be put on an AOMF either. Anybody have relevant precedents to quote?

[Necromancy]

Has anybody compiled all the non-class specific bonuses to CMB that are out there? I've been of the opinion that Combat Maneuvers aren't anywhere near as bad in actual practice as they're made out to be on message boards for awhile now, but I think with all these new options coming out in the past year there's a possibility that CMB scores can be even better than I had assumed.

I have it but can't find right now. I do know it's possible for Tetori monk to hit the 50/70 CMB/CMD range with potions/buffs



Ya, I'm not sure the Brawling weapon enchant could be put on an AOMF either. Anybody have relevant precedents to quote?

Glad to!

from description of Amulet of Mighty Fists

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks.

from entry on brawling property

This weapon special ability can be applied only to brass knuckles, a cestus, a sap, or a light bludgeoning weapon.

from entry about unarmed strike

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

Now unless you want to argue that unarmed isn't bludgeoning, it seems clear enough to me.

[grarrrg]

Glad to!

from description of Amulet of Mighty Fists...

Fair enough.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Yep, this works out. A bit expensive though as you have to have a +1 bonus before the Brawler effect. So 16k to get a +1 bonus to all Combat Maneuvers. When just the +1 bonus applies to many maneuvers already.

[Necromancy]

Well it's certainly down the list on buffs to buy

Start the game with heirloom gloves (DM approval)have them enchanted to gauntlets of the skilled maneuver asap

Perma enlarge is fairly cheap

I know there's a wayfinder buff somewhere

Etc

[animewatcha]

I will admit that I didn't know that brawling was a weapon enchantment. Only armor. However Necro, this makes it extra important that you put link your source as to the correct one ( you linked the armor to me ). The armor one is an untyped bonus as well.

What is wanted is not to use Brawling weapon enchant unless you are going for very specific maneuvers beyond disarm/trip. Dueling is what you want. This one..

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20%28PSF G%29

Not to be confused with this one..

http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling