ghost sounds + silent image = no save?

[gogogome]

The party is level 3. Right now one of the players is going:
1. Cast ghost sounds of colossal red great wyrm breathing
2. Silent image of a colossal red great wyrm looking at everyone tastily.

and then he claims none of the creatures get a saving throw to recognize that its an illusion because none of them interact with it. He also claims no one studies the image carefully because:
1. These are goblins, orcs, bugbears, etc. Super dumb.
2. None of them have spellcraft.

and those who do have spellcraft and recognizes the wizard's spell as silent image instead of some sort of unknown summoning spell, are the ones who get to make the will save.

Is what he's doing correct?

[With a box]

you know that bugbears has no int or wis penalty? they are as smart as an average human.
and it will make minor image an auto win spell....

[gogogome]

you know that bugbears has no int or wis penalty? they are as smart as an average human.
and it will make minor image an auto win spell....

Is an average human smart enough to study silent images carefully instead of running for their lives the moment they see a wizard summoning a colossal red wyrm?

Is probably the line of thinking the player has.

[torrasque666]

I think they'd notice it apparently took two rounds to summon the damn thing. Second, the DM needs to determine what the volume of a Dragon breathing is, as if its more than 4 humans/level (weird scale, i know) then it can't be done.

[Anlashok]

The argument is that because you don't touch the image directly, you don't get a save and in this instance it makes sense.

But I can't see how they don't get a save against ghost sound.


These are goblins, orcs, bugbears, etc. Super dumb.
Only one of those races has an int or wisdom penalty.

[Troacctid]

Interaction is never clearly defined in the rules, so there's pretty much always going to be a judgment call involved. Your player's line of reasoning is not invalid, but it's not ironclad either. It's up in the air, really.

Personally, I'd have to think about it, but I'd probably end up siding with your player here. This is exactly the kind of distracting tactic that illusions are supposed to be used for. If they're running away, that's them specifically avoiding any interaction with it. And especially considering that we're talking about enemies with low to average mental stats, I think it's pretty reasonable that at least some of them would flee--probably most of them, and potentially all of them, since mob mentality makes you more likely to flee if that's what your allies are doing. Remember, it's still an inherently temporary solution to the encounter--it won't take long before the baddies realize the dragon isn't actually chasing them, so you'd better make use of the advantage while it lasts.

[ericgrau]

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

The key fuzzy language is "study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion." "Study it carefully" isn't going to happen in the heat of danger. Which leaves "interact with it in some fashion."

This is all open to interpretation, but I think if you require proof to qualify as interaction you are certainly asking for too much. That's its own section which immediately foils the illusion without requiring a save. Spellcraft is proof or else too close to proof. Likewise if merely seeing the illusion counts as interaction then all illusions end up giving a save and you are requiring too little. So ask yourself, "How would the goblins interact with the dragon in a way that grants them a save? Without proof, without all illusions being interacted with under that logic.

Many subtle illusions shouldn't have a save for example. Wall off a side passage and the foe walks right by it with no save, unless he's checking all the walls for something. Create a dead end and the foe who hits it gets a save after he reaches there and stops. That's interaction IMO, being made to stop. IMO being face to face with a dragon is enough interaction to give a save, it's the "dead end". But where you draw the line is up to you. Just make sure you draw it somewhere between proof and always. At either of these extremes I don't think it could possibly be right or there's no point to the rules existing.


If they're running away, that's them specifically avoiding any interaction with it.
Yeah but only after interacting with it in terror and determining that this was a very unpleasant thing. After their backs are turned and fleeing then it's no longer interacting.

[RoboEmperor]

Confusing thing about ghost sounds + silent image is, ghost sounds specifically says it enhances silent image. So how does it enhance it? It's not a save DC increase, so its gotta be whats left: interaction. Ghost sounds make the silent image less likely to be interacted.

The way I see it is if you create an image of a creature without ghost sounds, enemies will doubt it and interact with it. If they touch it, that's a will save. If they study it carefully because it just doesn't make sense that a silent dragon appeared before them, that's a will save. If they throw a rock to see if it's real, objects always succeed their saves so in this case, there is no save. Everyone knows the dragon is fake. Some enemies might run away without a save because there are a lot of things they don't understand in this world and they don't question it, but with bugbears and the like, I think they will stare at the dragon to see if they can believe their eyes and get a will save. Like if you see a giant pile of gold appear before you, you'd stare at it before grabbing it right?

[ericgrau]

Yeah true, though no more than minor image.

[Grek]

Yes, this is exactly what you are supposed to use those two spells to do.

[gartius]

whilst i agree that there probably isnt a save involved, a lvl 3 spellcaster cannot create a powerful enough ghost sound to sound convincingly like a dragon especially of colossal size.

[RoboEmperor]

whilst i agree that there probably isnt a save involved, a lvl 3 spellcaster cannot create a powerful enough ghost sound to sound convincingly like a dragon especially of colossal size.

It's just breathing noise, so it isn't that loud, and it doesn't have to be accurate either, just loud enough. Level 3 = 12 humans, and 16 humans is a roaring lion, so constant breathing noise that's not as loud as a lion roar is convincing enough I think.

[Gurifu]

The sand people are easily startled, but they will be back, in greater numbers.

My advice: let the tactic work, but don't let it resolve the encounter. It's the kind of trick that only works once on any given group of enemies, and buying a few rounds and superior positioning while the enemy flees, regroups, and realizes that they've been tricked is a reasonable effect for a level 1 spell against a CR1-2 encounter, especially as he's giving up two rounds to do it.

From a more rules-oriented standpoint, your wizard is correct that they don't receive an automatic save. However...

1: There are no rules for being afraid of things just because they're big and scary. As the DM, you (and your dice) get to decide what the most appropriate result of NPCs being scared is. If the enemies think that the wizard has just summoned a horrible monster into their home, who's to say they don't conclude that the best option is to throw everything they have at the wizard in the precious seconds they have left? After all, killing a caster dispels his summoned creatures, and can you really hope to run from a dragon?

2: Any character with the skill can make a Spellcraft check to identify the wizard's spells as they are being cast. On success, immediately disbelieve without having to make a save. If you know something is an illusion, you don't have to roll to disbelieve it.

3: Ghost Sound + Silent Image is a method of improving the chance that the trick will convince your target, not an auto-success. If it was just a matter of "no save, therefore encounter is won" the wizard wouldn't be wasting his third level spell slot, he'd just use Ghost Sound and win every encounter. You should give enemies tests to make them suspect that it's an illusion and test it by interacting with it or examining it carefully. Remember, all it takes is enough doubt to toss a rock at the illusion before running away, or study it while cowering and peeking around a corner.

a) Knowledge (Arcana) check to know that Summon Monster is a single round cast: DC10 (a really easy question within the field).

b) Perception check to know that those adventurers aren't nearly well-equipped enough to be casting spells of that level: DC should vary by how visibly well equipped the party is, whether they've fought the PCs already, etc.

c) Intelligence check to know that even if they were they wouldn't be burning high level spell slots on CR<1s: DC should be pretty low.

d) Perception check to notice that the monster has no scent: yes, probably DC15.

e) Perception check to notice that the enormous monster isn't following them: probably DC15 once per round, or just roll 2d6 and that's how long it takes them to rally.

[Earthwalker]

Use the same tactic back on the PCs, then see what they do and if they think thier actions get a save throw.

Seems simple enough. If the PCs fight on and see its an illusion then have the monsters do the same. If the PCs run and don't even ask for a save then have the monsters react the same. What makes sense for the players should make sense for the monsters and vice versa.

[Maglubiyet]

All good recommendations. Also in a large enough tribe it's likely that there is at least one Adept, Shaman, Priest, Sorcerer, Wizard, or Witch Doctor with Spellcraft. That one would be in a position of authority to yell, "come back you fools, it's a trick!"

This is probably why goblins hate gnomes so much -- their propensity for casting illusions.

[ace rooster]

I can't remember where I read it, but I read something about 'interaction' being defined as any interaction that requires an action (not a free action). Attacks count, as do active spot checks. I might rule that use of the dodge feat or fighting defensively would count too, but standard withdrawls would not, never mind running.

Spellcraft checks do not automatically give a save I think, but they might make the character believe that the dragon is an illusion even if they cannot see through it (possibly granting a +4 bonus to any later save). This can lead to hilarity on the day that you actually do have a gargantuan red dragon hiding behind the corner, and pretend to cast silent image.

As a slightly pernickity side not, a collosal dragon is too big for silent image. It can only be gargantuan. :smalltongue:

[Spore]

Also aren't Goblins insanely stupid sometimes? What are the odds of 20+ Goblins that one of them is trying to get to the Hoard the Dragon surely protects?

[hifidelity2]

Use the same tactic back on the PCs, then see what they do and if they think thier actions get a save throw.

Seems simple enough. If the PCs fight on and see its an illusion then have the monsters do the same. If the PCs run and don't even ask for a save then have the monsters react the same. What makes sense for the players should make sense for the monsters and vice versa.

and then the real fun as a DM is have the Wiz able to do 1 summoning but lots of illusions. I cast an illusion of monster X - party assume its an illusion and ignore it - later I summon a real one - party ignore it and thne get stomped on (from behind as they walked past it)

[Maglubiyet]

Also aren't Goblins insanely stupid sometimes? What are the odds of 20+ Goblins that one of them is trying to get to the Hoard the Dragon surely protects?

Goblins don't suffer any penalty to Int or Wis and they have a strong sense of self preservation. That doesn't mean one or two wouldn't take a couple of shots at the dragon in panic.

[Bruenin]

Explanation:
Interacting to me is any action that involves the illusion, this can be a part of a normal action or an action taken explicitly to interact with the illusion. So it has to take at least a move action but it doesn't have to be dedicated to thwarting an illusion per se. If you take an action to search an area that has an illusion then you get a save whereas just passing by it wouldn't. I also rule that you have to be able to perceive the implication of your interaction, shooting a random arrow in the pitch of night and having it hit an illusory wall that you couldn't even see wouldn't grant a save, but this isn't really an issue that comes up much.

There is a DC80 spot check to pierce an illusion, a check most people can't make, but then you're able to spend a move action to try and spot something you didn't notice before. Again they wouldn't be able to beat it the second time but since they're spending an action on it then I'd let them have a will check because they effectively spent an action looking over something in detail to try and spot something and the fluff I suppose would be that they didn't find the definite signs it's an illusion, but they saw little things here and their that niggled at their doubt. Of course I won't let them roll this spot check unless they have reason to believe it's an illusion and that's where spellcraft and stuff come in handy for influencing behavior. If they know you're slinging around illusions they may be more riskier with interactions and less likely to have it affect them all that much, like say ignoring the dragon, or not running.

I just don't like having illusions be saved against as a free action and I like the idea of people working around it and such. I feel like I explained this really clumsy like.

OT:
But in this situation, I think it'd depend. If you're raiding their home they may be hesitant to leave and instead drop back to cover to hide from the dragon and then since it is such an extraordinary sight, they'd probably spent an action looking over it and this would prompt them their will save. If it's out in the open they might just plain run, you have to take in account the nature of the creatures and how they may logically act, ie are they there to protect something and would they risk their lives doing it? What is their purpose and how much does it mean to them? The people who recognize an illusion spell may not drop back and just look it over. Maybe alert the others around them that it may be fake and the that'd also result in a different behavior. Knowing that the wizard created an illusion doesn't mean you know what the illusion specifically is, you could easily assume yeah, but self-doubt would be what keeps the illusion real in their mind until they actually look it over.

ALSO, here's a pretty good guide to look over:
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a

It's a 4 part guide to how to handle illusions, when to grant saves, the effects illusions are capable of and etc. It's also where I base the move action to look over illusions ruling from, I just use the spot DC because I like to try and find a rules explanation for it.

[Urpriest]

Use the same tactic back on the PCs, then see what they do and if they think thier actions get a save throw.

Seems simple enough. If the PCs fight on and see its an illusion then have the monsters do the same. If the PCs run and don't even ask for a save then have the monsters react the same. What makes sense for the players should make sense for the monsters and vice versa.

Certain types of PCs would fight on on the assumption that the Dragon must somehow be a reasonable encounter, though, since many players forget that sometimes you encounter overwhelming force. By contrast, NPCs often have families to get back to.

[Spore]

Goblins [...] have a strong sense of self preservation.

Then I've mixed them up with Golarion goblins. They ... do not treat their live at a high value.

[Darth Ultron]

Use the same tactic back on the PCs, then see what they do and if they think thier actions get a save throw.

This is always a good one to do to the players. Even more so a wizard player that thinks foes should just automatically be effected by their illusions.

Just remember that figment illusions have no game effects. So it's the DM that gets to say what happens....and not the players. Illusion spells are not a mini wish spell.

As a DM, I would not let this type of over the top illusion work. It's just ''too much to believe''. That a dragon might ''suddenly appear'', right around the time the human adventures come....hummm.

And I'd question if the wizard knew what a red dragon looked and sounded like. And if your typical humanoid would even know what a dragon looked like? They would just see a ''scary monster'', but not relay get the ''dragon scare''.

And who says humanoids are Super Dumb? Goblins don't have any intelligence penalty, nor do kobolds, or hobgoblins. Orcs do get a -2, but that is not exactly ''super dumb''. Orcs get the average intelligence of 8. It's below human level, but not quite super dumb.

[Zanos]

I would imagine the Wizard player would pass his spellcraft check to know that the person just cast an illusion spell, and act on that knowledge, so I doubt he'd mind much.

Illusions are kind of problematic IMO because they're extremely DM dependent, so how good non-killer gnome builds are are entirely dependent on how your DM treats illusions. I think it's fair that creatures of human-level intelligence would be suspicious that a wizard that doesn't appear to be particularly powerful based on his company has great wyrms obeying his beck and call and stare intently enough at the illusion to get a save.

Still, I know DMs that would just say they all thought the illusion was real but didn't care and attacked anyway.

[NecessaryWeevil]

I think "interaction" means you act, and it acts back. You get the save to see if the caster manages to make it respond in a believable manner or if you notice that something's "off." So if you have a conversation with an illusion, yeah, that's interaction. If the illusion is dodging and weaving in response to your attacks, that's interaction. Simply hearing or seeing an illusion isn't an interaction, even if you take an action in response that doesn't involve the illusion, like obeying an order given via ghost sound or running away from a scary image.

[Chronos]

I would rule that anything that an opponent did in an attempt to affect the dragon, and anything the dragon did in an attempt to affect the opponents, would count as interaction. Attack rolls, spells, and breath weapon would all be examples of things that would work. Just glaring menacingly, though, is not an interaction, and neither is fleeing.

[Karl Aegis]

I think someone is assuming that your goblins, orcs and bugbears have invested enough points in knowledge(arcana) to realize that a high hit dice creature is a threat to them. Most of them would just shrug and get on with their lives. Most of them probably would have to rely on a DC 5-10 wisdom check to identify another member of their race (taking 10, of course).

[Kantolin]

Personally, a potentially smarter move would be to summon something you can in fact summon (or polymorph someone into).

If you summon /two/ dragons, and one of them sets a bandit on fire, then you can bet all the remaining bandits will respond to both dragons as though they were real without testing the second one.

[Duke of Urrel]

I agree with those commenters who say that Silent Image + Ghost Sound = Minor Image. Indeed, when the Silent Image spell is combined with the Ghost Sound spell, I add +1 to the Silent Image spell's save DC, so that it is exactly as powerful as a Minor Image would be.


I would rule that anything that an opponent did in an attempt to affect the dragon, and anything the dragon did in an attempt to affect the opponents, would count as interaction. Attack rolls, spells, and breath weapon would all be examples of things that would work. Just glaring menacingly, though, is not an interaction, and neither is fleeing.

When I'm the dungeon master, I'm a little stricter than that.

I believe interaction with an illusory object happens only when the illusion stands directly in front of observers and blocks their way (as an illusory wall) or otherwise attracts or inconveniences them long enough for them to investigate it more closely.

1. An illusory wall that blocks the path of creatures that are pursuing you definitely compels them to interact with it, especially if they are not expecting any wall to be here, which will certainly make them curious about it. Therefore, I would grant at least a few of your pursuers a Will save to disbelieve the barrier.

2. An illusory wall that stands just a foot or two in front of a real wall that is out of everybody's way, so that nobody is likely to notice it (and so that you and your comrades can easily hide behind it), does not interact with anyone and does not provoke any interaction. However, if someone uses Search skill in a space next to this wall for some reason, I grant him or her a Will save, because I consider searching to be the same as interacting.

I believe interaction happens when an illusory creature – or a disguise – is used to influence observers in some way. This kind of illusion does not interact with anyone if its purpose is to avoid attracting any attention. For example:

1. If you use the Disguise Self spell to make yourself look like a commoner and you mingle among other commoners in the marketplace, you're not trying to influence anyone; you're just trying to avoid drawing any attention to yourself. In this case, I don't consider you to be interacting with anyone; therefore, I don't grant anybody a Will save.

2. If you've killed or kidnapped a guard and you create an illusory guard so that nobody will notice that the real one is absent, you're not trying to draw anybody's attention, you're doing the opposite: trying to avoid attracting any attention. When an observer looks at your illusory guard, I believe this does not count as interaction, because the observer is expecting a guard to be there and won't look very hard.

3. However, I believe trying to frighten observers away counts as trying to influence them. Therefore, it counts as interaction and allows the observers to make Will saves. Every observer who makes a successful Will save disbelieves the illusion and does not fear it.

Postscript: Although I think it's important to avoid allowing any illusion to be foolproof, I favor mass deception. I agree with the principle of the "Emperor's New Clothes," which is that large crowds are no smarter than small groups when it comes to deception. Therefore, whenever an illusion interacts with or is studied by a large group of observers, I make it a house rule to grant Will saves to only a fraction of them: to no more than one in a group of one to five, to no more than two in a group of six to twenty, and to no more than three in a group of 21 or more. I apply this rule to both PCs and NPCs.

[bookguy]

The goblins run away. The party celebrates the loot and XP. The goblins sneak back during the middle of the night and slit their throats.