Creature Type in A Song of Ice and Fire

[Mr.Kraken]

Hi, guys. I'm writing my own d20 adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire, and I'm trying to be as inclusive as I can, meaning I'm adding creatures that are only mentioned by name and/or are considered just legend and myth by the Westerosi. But, the ones that are making me scratch my head are actually two creatures that we know to exist: the Others and the Children of the Forest.

What creature type would you attribute to these races? For the COFT, I'm torn between Humanoid and Fey, and since I'm using them as a playable race, I'm inclined to choose the first.

For the Others, I'm lost. The A Song of Ice and Fire d20 module developped by Guardians of Order has them as Outsiders. It may be one of the options, but I don't think they are outsiders - there's no confirmation that they are from another plane. When I read A Game of Thrones for the first time, I remember imagining the Others as some kind of evil, cold Fey. If you forget the TV show, there's some kind of cold beauty about them. But, if you go with the TV show and believe that they are human babies turned into these creatures, then should they be Humanoids? Monstrous Humanoids? Undeads? Whatever the choice, they should have the Cold subtype, shouldn't they?

I'd like the playground's opinion. Thanks!

[Vhaidara]

The Others themselves are either Outsiders or Fey, depending on personal taste. Definitely cold subtype.

The wights (or whatever they're called) are definitely undead though.

[Mr.Kraken]

Considering the Others as Outsiders brings about some interesting issues.

In the ASOIAF mythology, there are several references to demons who come from some kind of hell. The Faith of the Seven has the Seven Hells, and the faith of R'hllor believe other gods to be demons. If any of these hells truly exist in Martin's mythos, then their inhabitants are definetly Outsiders. Take for example, the Shadowlands or the city of K'Dath. There are beliefs that these two places are the lairs of demons and dragons.

I would like to say that there is nothing pointing the Others to be Outsiders, but I would be mistaken if I did. Melisandre says that they are the "cold children of the Great Other", who is the god of evil and darkness in her religion. If she is correct, then the Others are probably Outsiders.

But, what if she is wrong? That's the beauty of the series, you never know who's right or wrong. I, myself, have always believed the Others to be a mystical representation of cold and night, intrinsic to the world, both natural and unnatural - which is what leads me to think as them as Fey.

[atemu1234]

Considering the Others as Outsiders brings about some interesting issues.

In the ASOIAF mythology, there are several references to demons who come from some kind of hell. The Faith of the Seven has the Seven Hells, and the faith of R'hllor believe other gods to be demons. If any of these hells truly exist in Martin's mythos, then their inhabitants are definetly Outsiders. Take for example, the Shadowlands or the city of K'Dath. There are beliefs that these two places are the lairs of demons and dragons.

I would like to say that there is nothing pointing the Others to be Outsiders, but I would be mistaken if I did. Melisandre says that they are the "cold children of the Great Other", who is the god of evil and darkness in her religion. If she is correct, then the Others are probably Outsiders.

But, what if she is wrong? That's the beauty of the series, you never know who's right or wrong. I, myself, have always believed the Others to be a mystical representation of cold and night, intrinsic to the world, both natural and unnatural - which is what leads me to think as them as Fey.

I second the Other being Fey, because they do seem like beings of nature, almost.

[Vhaidara]

I actually agree that they are, fluffwise, little more than Unseelie fey. Maybe a bit more of a necromantic bent, but, IIRC, even the traditional Unseelie had something of that to them

[Mr.Kraken]

Thanks for your opinions on the Others. And what about the children of the forest?

Also, Guardians of Order had the direwolves as magical beasts. I think it's safe to treat them as animals instead, and treat warging as a class feature that works with all creatures of the animal type (other types, such as humanoids, are possible in higher levels). What do you think?

[Vhaidara]

Children of the forest are seelie fey.

Warging I would connect to int score of the target. Put direwolves as a 3, and Hodors as a 4

[whisperwind1]

I think the real question here is why would you use d20 to run A song of Ice and Fire? Not saying the d20 system is bad for what it is, but I know what it aint, and it aint conducive to running normal humans engaging in politics and dying of an infected sword cut. d20 is simply WAY to high-powered to be viable for ASOIF, and nowhere is this more obvious than with the "monstrous races" of the setting. Others are tough and magical sure, but obsidian will drop them (whereas in D&D it'd bypass DR or whatever), and the Giants, massive and tough, can still be taken down by one man under the right conditions (Mag the Mighty died like a chump).

Setting aside the monstrous races, d20 doesn't do a good job conveying one of the core themes of the series, that the main characters are humans with great character (sometimes), but are all still limited physically or in terms of their personalities. Gregor Clegane, arguably one of the most "minmaxed" combat characters in that series, would go down like wet tissue paper when faced by a level 1 fighter with a high-crit weapon and improved initiative in any D&D setting. Why? because in real life, when you get slashed by a sword, even non-fatally, blood-loss and exhaustion will eventually overcome you. d20 doesn't translate that human fallibility well at all, and everyone is basically a hero of myth, able to take five axe-blows to the face and still destroy like five dudes (there's no difference between a character at 1 HP and 100HP other than how long it'll take before they drop).

My advice is stick to Green Ronin's ASOIF RPG, its made specifically for the setting, and does a great job of giving you characters that can be really good within the bounds of being normal humans. The caveat I guess is that Others and COTF aren't statted there, but once again, these creatures wouldn't pass muster next to even a regular halfling or snow elf if they had class levels.

[Mr.Kraken]

I think the real question here is why would you use d20 to run A song of Ice and Fire? Not saying the d20 system is bad for what it is, but I know what it aint, and it aint conducive to running normal humans engaging in politics and dying of an infected sword cut. d20 is simply WAY to high-powered to be viable for ASOIF, and nowhere is this more obvious than with the "monstrous races" of the setting. Others are tough and magical sure, but obsidian will drop them (whereas in D&D it'd bypass DR or whatever), and the Giants, massive and tough, can still be taken down by one man under the right conditions (Mag the Mighty died like a chump).

Setting aside the monstrous races, d20 doesn't do a good job conveying one of the core themes of the series, that the main characters are humans with great character (sometimes), but are all still limited physically or in terms of their personalities. Gregor Clegane, arguably one of the most "minmaxed" combat characters in that series, would go down like wet tissue paper when faced by a level 1 fighter with a high-crit weapon and improved initiative in any D&D setting. Why? because in real life, when you get slashed by a sword, even non-fatally, blood-loss and exhaustion will eventually overcome you. d20 doesn't translate that human fallibility well at all, and everyone is basically a hero of myth, able to take five axe-blows to the face and still destroy like five dudes (there's no difference between a character at 1 HP and 100HP other than how long it'll take before they drop).

My advice is stick to Green Ronin's ASOIF RPG, its made specifically for the setting, and does a great job of giving you characters that can be really good within the bounds of being normal humans. The caveat I guess is that Others and COTF aren't statted there, but once again, these creatures wouldn't pass muster next to even a regular halfling or snow elf if they had class levels.

Yes, I have that in mind. That's why I'm having the setting as the Age of Heroes, which was the period of time where supernatural feats, magic and well, heroes, were not only possible, but you can say, common sight. I know it's not feasible to use d20 for A Song of Ice and Fire as is, but if you set your world during the Age of Heroes it becomes more acceptable. Some great feats were accomplished during that time. Bran the Builder built the Wall and Storm's End using magic, smarts and guts, Lann the Clever managed to swindle Casterly Rock from the Casterlys only with his wits, Garth Greenhand is said to have made the fields brim with flowers, the Ironborn's Grey King killed Nagga, the sea-dragon, Symeon Star-Eyes was a blind chivalric figure who fought perfectly with a double-bladed staff. Not counting Valyria, the Others, the Long Night, the Children of the Forest and magic.

So, the Age of Heroes seems a lot more d20-ish than the current era. I think the mythology of Ice and Fire is very rich, and a campaign set in the past of Westeros/Essos/Sothoryos, when the players would be able to see the history of these continents being shaped into the current events we see in the books, is a very interesting opportunity, specially if you can use the high fantasy d20 system.

[whisperwind1]

So, the Age of Heroes seems a lot more d20-ish than the current era. I think the mythology of Ice and Fire is very rich, and a campaign set in the past of Westeros/Essos/Sothoryos, when the players would be able to see the history of these continents being molded into the current events we see in the books, is a very interesting opportunity, specially if you can use the high fantasy d20 system.

I guess you could do that, but the problem is the same as running a campaign in Middle-Earth before the fall of Numenor, in that the setting is not the setting people know. Let me explain, the Age of Heroes is super cool and all, but (if I may venture), most players when proposed ASOIF would want to play it because its not baseline D&D. Its a very deep, political setting that puts the human condition front & center, the closest thing you'll get to Crusader Kings II on the tabletop (minus all the gamist villainy lol). You could run the Age of Heroes, where Brann the Builder has levels in Artificer and Lann the Clever is an Arcane Trickster, but at that point it stops feeling like ASOIF, its D&D in Westeros/Essos. In the novels, the Age of heroes is the equivalent of greek myth in the modern day, its where the heroes people in Westeros admire live, and contains the archetypes they aspire to emulate (with exceptions of course). In a very real sense, it is to the people of Westeros what D&D (and perhaps fiction in general) is to most players, an escapist power fantasy where you can picture yourself (or people you can identify with) being an unstoppable badass.

But that's not ASOIF I think, and people I've talked to generally agree that the most interesting part about the setting is the political intrigue, backstabbing and human error (my players have the end goal of overthrowing Jon Arryn and creating the Dominion of the Vale, from which they shall ride out the Five Kings War in style).

[Mr.Kraken]

Oh, I think we agree on that the best part of ASOIAF is the human side of it, but I also believe that all of us are intrigued somewhat by the mystical side of the story. I've tried before to convince my group to play Green Ronin's ASOIAF game, but to no avail - we are deeply rooted in d20, I guess you can say that. My group likes GoT (the series, they aren't as much invested in the books) and they would like to play a Westeros based RPG, but they aren't willing to change.

That leads me to what I'm doing. I'm adapting as much of the Martin mythos as I can to d20. Races, classes, feats, all of it. And I am being as inclusive as I possibly can. So far, I have twelve playable races (with 22 human variations), alternative rulings for mongrel characters and a Racial Heroic Feature, which would set heroic characters apart from normal characters. I'm currently working on classes. I plan on including base classes that would be true to the feeling of the series, such as Skinchanger or Red Priest of R'hllor. The same is also true for prestige classes, with Ranger of the Night's Watch, Greenseer and Dragonlord, as examples.

The idea is for it to still be ASOIAF, but turned into a high-fantasy d20 setting for those who prefer those kinds of stories. Or maybe, you could argue that it's really not ASOIAF in the same way that The Hedge Knight isn't - it's another story set in the same world, but with a very different take. I think it's the only way of having the Ice and Fire mythos as a d20 game.

[whisperwind1]

we are deeply rooted in d20, I guess you can say that. My group likes GoT (the series, they aren't as much invested in the books) and they would like to play a Westeros based RPG, but they aren't willing to change.

That's just unfortunate, my condolences, friend. I too know the frustration of players who don't want to try a new system because "its not D&D!".

[Mr.Kraken]

That's just unfortunate, my condolences, friend. I too know the frustration of players who don't want to try a new system because "its not D&D!".

Sucks, I know. Besides this, I'm planning a d20 Future campaign, and even though it's the same system, I'm afraid they won't like it because "it's not D&D, dammit!". Wish me luck...