How to fix Dragonborn's Breath Weapon?

[andhaira]

So, the DB breath weapon is awful. And they don't even get wings to compensate. There are also no feats that would boost a dragonborns breath weapon.

The Half Dragon template in the MM is so much superior. I was considering maybe melding the two?

How would you go about fixing the DB folks?

[charcoalninja]

Give the Breath Weapon the same recharge mechanic as actual Dragon Breath weapons?

[Person_Man]

It's not awful. It's situational. You should only use it in situations where you can target 3 or more enemies with low/mediocre Dex Saves. When you do, your overall damage output is probably going to be a higher then what you could deal with an attack action.

[Kryx]

See Is Dragonborn a bit of a runt? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389480-Is-Dragonborn-a-bit-of-a-runt)

I scale it like a cantrip as that thread suggests:
L1 2d6
L5 4d6
L11 6d6
L17 8d6

[Easy_Lee]

If you leave it on the current recharge rate, it should be a bit stronger to warrant usage in my opinion. I'd scale it to do about equivalent damage to agonizing EB in that case. If you want it to recharge like a regular dragon's breath attack, then it shouldn't be as strong as that or it would be OP. In that case, I would say make it scale like regular EB with no agonizing blast invocation.

[Shining Wrath]

Should a dragonborn's breath weapon be about as powerful as a High Elf's free cantrip? That might make sense. It gets pretty useless at higher levels.

[Kryx]

Should a dragonborn's breath weapon be about as powerful as a High Elf's free cantrip?
Which is what the thread I posted earlier suggests. :)

Well, at least scaling it like a cantrip.

[Easy_Lee]

Should a dragonborn's breath weapon be about as powerful as a High Elf's free cantrip? That might make sense. It gets pretty useless at higher levels.

Unless one changes the way the breath weapon recharges, I think it should be more powerful than a cantrip. Cantrips can be used an infinite number of times, while the current breath weapon is only usable once per short rest.

Even if the recharge was normal, 5 or 6, I could see reason for it to be stronger than most cantrips, since that's still a longer recharge time than a cantrip. Making it as powerful as an unboosted EB, combined with the fact that it's an AoE, would make sense to me in that case.

[Shining Wrath]

Unless one changes the way the breath weapon recharges, I think it should be more powerful than a cantrip. Cantrips can be used an infinite number of times, while the current breath weapon is only usable once per short rest.

Even if the recharge was normal, 5 or 6, I could see reason for it to be stronger than most cantrips, since that's still a longer recharge time than a cantrip. Making it as powerful as an unboosted EB, combined with the fact that it's an AoE, would make sense to me in that case.

What I meant was "as powerful as", not "identical to". If it is used less often, it should do more damage or have other benefits.

[hecetv]

What I meant was "as powerful as", not "identical to". If it is used less often, it should do more damage or have other benefits.

Such as being an aoe?

[jazzymantis]

Such as being an aoe?

This.

The fighter in my campaign is a dragonborn with the 15' cone attack. He is loving it for when he needs an area of effect attack that are hard to get otherwise.

[Galen]

When I first read the PHB, I was under the impression the breath weapon is a Bonus Action. Which actually makes a bit of sense, since you should be able to breathe fire and attack with your sword at the same time. Was very disappointed at the second read to find it's actually a regular Action. I'm toying with the idea of making it a bonus action as a house-rule anyway.

[andhaira]

How about a racial Dragonborn feat that could bump up the BW? Feats are much more valuable and powerful in this edition, so I think just one feat is all that would be needed to boost the DBs breath weapon. And maybe another feat to add in wings as well?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

How about a racial Dragonborn feat that could bump up the BW? Feats are much more valuable and powerful in this edition, so I think just one feat is all that would be needed to boost the DBs breath weapon. And maybe another feat to add in wings as well?

That could be pretty interesting.

Feat: Awoken Dragon Blood
Requirement: Dragonborn
Your dragon heritage is stronger than most, and has manifested strong traits within you.
-Your breath weapon now adds your CON modifier to the damage. Also, after using your breath weapon, you may roll a d6 at the start of your turn. On a result of 5 or 6, your breath weapon is recharged.
-You have sprouted dragon wings on your back. You now have a flying speed equal to your walking speed so long as you are not wearing medium or heavy armor.

Edit: After reading the other thread I do find it odd that Dragonborn don't get Darkvision. But Darkvision is also a little boring. What would you think of a Infra-vision, like some snakes and reptiles have? Like a 5' or 10' range blindsence which requires the thing you're looking for to be warm-blooded.

[andhaira]

That could be pretty interesting.

Feat: Awoken Dragon Blood
Requirement: Dragonborn
Your dragon heritage is stronger than most, and has manifested strong traits within you.
-Your breath weapon now adds your CON modifier to the damage. Also, after using your breath weapon, you may roll a d6 at the start of your turn. On a result of 5 or 6, your breath weapon is recharged.
-You have sprouted dragon wings on your back. You now have a flying speed equal to your walking speed so long as you are not wearing medium or heavy armor.

Edit: After reading the other thread I do find it odd that Dragonborn don't get Darkvision. But Darkvision is also a little boring. What would you think of a Infra-vision, like some snakes and reptiles have? Like a 5' or 10' range blindsence which requires the thing you're looking for to be warm-blooded.

The recharge mechanic doesn't work well with PCs in this edition, unlike 4e. What's to stop the PC from continuously rolling out of combat to regain his BW? I say keep the BW limited in usage, but increase it's power. That way at least it makes a difference, like when a mage uses fireball.

My Version:

Feat: Soul of the Dragon
Requirement: Dragonborn race
The draconic blood runs strong in your veins, granting you more of the power of your fearsome dragonkin
-Your Breath Weapon increases it's damage dice by 2. Therefore it does 5D6 damage at 6th Level, 6D6 damage at 11th Level, and 7D6 damage at 16th Level. All other factors remain the same.

-You sprout dragon like wings on your back. They are not near as strong as true dragon wings, but they allow you to fly at a speed of 30ft for 1 hour per day. You do not have to make use of this flight time consecutively. After the hour is up you must complete a long rest before using your wings again. You are also considered to be under the affects of a Featherfall spell at all time as long as you are awake and not paralyzed.

(Note: Non humans only gain their first feat at 5th level, so that is the earliest a DB could take this feat)

[ChubbyRain]

If you want dragonborn feats I suggest you take a look at 4e, they had a ton of cool dragonborn options. Actually if I recall correctly one of the things that made dragon breath good/awesome was that it was a minor action (thus a bonus action in 5e), I think the 5e breath is an action.

But yeah, convert all those dragon born feats into megafeats in 5e and you got yourself a ballgame.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

The recharge mechanic doesn't work well with PCs in this edition, unlike 4e. What's to stop the PC from continuously rolling out of combat to regain his BW?
Absolutely nothing stops him from recharging between encounters. That was intentional on my part.


-You sprout dragon like wings on your back. They are not near as strong as true dragon wings, but they allow you to fly at a speed of 30ft for 1 hour per day. You do not have to make use of this flight time consecutively. After the hour is up you must complete a long rest before using your wings again. You are also considered to be under the affects of a Featherfall spell at all time as long as you are awake and not paralyzed.

An hour limitation isn't a limitation of any significance. That's 600 combat rounds. Or 120 encounters of 5 rounds. Need to fly up a 200' cliff? 40 seconds. A mile tall mountain? 17 and a half minutes.

The only situation where you might worry about running out of time is long-distance travel, but that doesn't matter unless you're going alone or the entire rest of the party can also fly.

[themaque]

Actually if I recall correctly one of the things that made dragon breath good/awesome was that it was a minor action (thus a bonus action in 5e), I think the 5e breath is an action.


What if the Breath Weapon was unchanged save for being turned into a Bonus action?

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

What if the Breath Weapon was unchanged save for being turned into a Bonus action?

Very strong early-game i would think, and late game it would become "oh yeah, I'll throw this out there, extra damage, why not?" instead of being an inferior choice.

You could also make it an attack action instead of a full action to favor the extra-attack-having martial classes.

[Galen]

You could also make it an attack action instead of a full action to favor the extra-attack-having martial classes.
I'm totally going to use this.

[Ralanr]

When I first read the race I assumed there was a dragonborn splat book in the works or something. They seem to have way too few things compared to other races. Then again it is an elemental resistance and breath attack...

I noticed a lot (if not most cause I didn't count) of cantrips use 1d8 or higher and max up to 4 of those die. I know dragonborn get a max of 5d6.

[Easy_Lee]

I noticed a lot (if not most cause I didn't count) of cantrips use 1d8 or higher and max up to 4 of those die. I know dragonborn get a max of 5d6.

I'd be cool with 5d6 if the breath weapon were usable in the same manner as a cantrip. However, it's long cooldown makes the ability too weak in my opinion. One would rather have a cantrip, and a racial feature weaker than an unboosted cantrip is no good in my book.

[Gritmonger]

I'm totally going to use this.

Agreed - this makes it better in a metagame sense, while at the same time adhering to the fluff of it being a natural feature rather than some acquired characteristic.

Natural as breathing, in other words.

[Ralanr]

I'd be cool with 5d6 if the breath weapon were usable in the same manner as a cantrip. However, it's long cooldown makes the ability too weak in my opinion. One would rather have a cantrip, and a racial feature weaker than an unboosted cantrip is no good in my book.

Considering it'd be at level 16 or 17 when you get this high, I doubt it'd be very useful. It's also weird that the increase begins at 6 rather than 5, then goes to 11. Or I'm forgetting, AFB.

[Easy_Lee]

Considering it'd be at level 16 or 17 when you get this high, I doubt it'd be very useful. It's also weird that the increase begins at 6 rather than 5, then goes to 11. Or I'm forgetting, AFB.

Well, cantrips in general aren't very useful by then. Scaling it much higher would make it flatly superior to a cantrip. Acid splash is dex save for 4d6 damage to up to two targets at 17...

[ChubbyRain]

What if the Breath Weapon was unchanged save for being turned into a Bonus action?

Still would need a damage adjustment at higher levels.

It it would help though.

[Mandragola]

Replacing a single attack, rather than using your whole action, is probably a reasonable option. It kind of only works for people with multiple attacks though. For a dragonborn fighter it's great but for a sorceror it won't see much use at all.

I do think that's a problem. The feature should be worth an action or it's not worth having, and your character's race has no meaningful in-game effect.

[Strill]

Should a dragonborn's breath weapon be about as powerful as a High Elf's free cantrip? That might make sense. It gets pretty useless at higher levels.

No, it should be substantially more powerful. The only race features dragonborn get are their breath weapon, resistance, and ability score increases. They get way way less than other races, so their breath weapon should be really damn good to compensate.

[Gritmonger]

No, it should be substantially more powerful. The only race features dragonborn get are their breath weapon, resistance, and ability score increases. They get way way less than other races, so their breath weapon should be really damn good to compensate.

It's an area of effect - a reflex save on the part of the targets, rather than any action by the dragonborn other than "I do it." I suspect they can also use it while restrained unless something specifically says it binds their mouth in particular - for instance, you could use it during a grapple while you are restrained, and I suspect the opponent that just "won" on the grapple check might have disadvantage on the Dex check to get out of the way of the breath attack.

It's not just a number comparison in looking at its function and utility, and why the balance includes selecting one of a number of resistances and an area of effect attack that bypasses many of the weapon-damage-immunities of magical creatures.