OOTS #978 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Veya]

Our favorite rogue needs the cavalry soon, very, very soon...

[deworde]

Nice gnome saving, shame about the dismount. Proper heroics there.

Haley's only hope: Do golems monologue?

[snowblizz]

Scary stuff there.

Funny feeling being online and seeing a new thread up and go "waaaait.... that means *click*
*click*"

[stench]

this... looks like.. the end... for our... heroine...

[Mrc.]

Wow, what a change from Crystal! I thought the gnome-town thing would be relatively quick like Sandsedge, but I like this new direction. I just hope Haley makes it out okay........ :smallfrown:

[wizuriel]

Uh oh. Crystal seems mad :eek:

[drazen]

I wonder, is this saying golems always feel pain, or just something specific to Crystal herself? Or just to sentient golems?

[tcrudisi]

I wonder, is this saying golems always feel pain, or just something specific to Crystal herself? Or just to sentient golems?

I read it as "flesh golems are always in pain".

[Emperordaniel]

Ouch, that's gotta hurt. :smalleek:

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Yay, the cute gnome soldiers survived!

But we may need a new rogue.

[Reddish Mage]

I just noticed how Crystal talks like someone suffering extreme pain, lashing out.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Okay as much as I dislike Crystal and want Haley to get out of this okay, that last sentence was a kick in the gut, confirming what this did to her. She may be a ass, but she didn't deserve this.

[Lkctgo]

What i want to know is if crystal also (partially) blames bozzok for her pain, or if she's still blindly loyal to Bozzok. It can't be a picnic to know that your boss decided to animate you as a golem instead of resurrecting you, especially since he got grubwiggler resurrected just to make her.

I wonder if she'll lash out at bozzok at some point. Or if this is a side-event for Haley only.

[AsteronIronhoof]

So on the discussion of whether Crystal's soul went to the afterlife...

I think this tips the scale to "no."

[TheFool]

That's, um, wow. Scary.

I guess that most flesh golems feel pain but aren't really conscious to express it. Crystal's a self-aware abomination, a true Frankenstein's monster.

[kivzirrum]

Whoa, that was kind of dark. Am I feeling a bit bad for Crystal Golem?

Also, go Bandanna and Haley for protecting those gnomes! Awesome.

[hamishspence]

I read it as "flesh golems are always in pain".

Makes sense to me. It may have interesting implications for some past scenes, as well.

[Emperordaniel]

Also, I think this answers the question raised in the last thread about whether Crystal was hasted and/or charged up by the lightning or not.

[Peelee]

Okay as much as I dislike Crystal and want Haley to get out of this okay, that last sentence was a kick in the gut, confirming what this did to her. She may be a ass, but she didn't deserve this.

I was going to say this exactly. That's a terrible fate. I need to know more.

Also, that capacitor coil looks beautiful.

[Quild]

Whew! And here I thought she was going to be upset!

[kivzirrum]

Can they be said to feel pain if they lack consciousness, though? The other flesh golems weren't self aware... I feel like this might be unique to her.

[pseudoname]

Can they be said to feel pain if they lack consciousness, though? The other flesh golems weren't self aware... I feel like this might be unique to her.

I mean, did you SEE what they did to her hair?

[Torzini]

Well... dang. :smalleek:

Oddly enough, I think I feel more sorry for Crystal than Haley in this comic.

[Spore]

I read it as "flesh golems are always in pain".

They increase the Creep Factor to eleven when you create Flesh Golems from different bodies and you can hear the disembodied screams of the victims every time you come near it.

[Barlion]

Well, she does feel something other than pain: she feels hate.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Let's not have a repeat of Roy!

Haley is in a lot of trouble, I hope someone went to get Elan and the rest. :smallfrown:

[Reboot]

What i want to know is if crystal also (partially) blames bozzok for her pain, or if she's still blindly loyal to Bozzok. It can't be a picnic to know that your boss decided to animate you as a golem instead of resurrecting you, especially since he got grubwiggler resurrected just to make her.

I wonder if she'll lash out at bozzok at some point. Or if this is a side-event for Haley only.

Bozzok (and Grubwiggler) probably have an override. Remember what Bozz was saying about her never getting distracted/etc a few strips back.

[Bulldog Psion]

Whoa, that was kind of dark. Am I feeling a bit bad for Crystal Golem?

Yes, that is pretty grim. I didn't think I'd end up feeling sympathy for Crystal, of all people. :smalleek:


Also, go Bandanna and Haley for protecting those gnomes! Awesome.

That is a plus. I was really happy to see the gnomes made it! :smallsmile:

[SterlingAvenger]

A gruesome fate for a gruesome person and yet I have to agree; I don't think anyone no matter how gruesome deserves it.

[Gwynfrid]

Adding depth to the golem situation, I like that. It also makes sense that a sentient flesh golem would be in pain all the time. Look at those poorly patched body parts.

Also worthy of note is the great machinery art in this comic. Beautiful stuff.

[FireJustice]

C'mon Giant, show me you got a litlle G.R.R. Martin in you...
Kill another protagonist.... Do it!

[Psyren]

Is the comic title ("Rage Against The Lightning Of The Dead") a reference to something? I don't get it. The closet I can come is "Rage Against The Machine" but I don't think that's right.


Let's not have a repeat of Roy!

On the other hand I wouldn't mind checking out the CG afterlife so I think it's win/win at this point :smalltongue: Either we get an awesome turnaround/comeuppance for Crystal/Bozzok, or Haley dies and we get to see Arborea.

(And she'd definitely ascend - she'd literally be going out sacrificing herself to save an innocent, on top of the other things she's done.)

Elan being all mopey for X strips would be a drag though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yikes, that's kind of scary. I wonder if we are perhaps going to get a bit more backstory as to how crystal ended up like this. Also, unless some serious help arrives soon, Haley, Bandana and the gnomes may be in a lot of trouble.

[Kenage]

Is the comic title ("Rage Against The Lightning Of The Dead") a reference to something? I don't get it. The closet I can come is "Rage Against The Machine" but I don't think that's right.

It's a twist on a poem verse from Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. Rage against the dying of the light.

http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

I was about to post my appreciation to the Giant for it :)

[cildan]

I wonder if Crystal gained a philosophical bent due to the strips misquoted title

I.e. "Do not go gently into that good night, rage, rage against the dying of the light".
Dylan Thomas

Ninja'd

[Shennynerd]

Bozzok (and Grubwiggler) probably have an override. Remember what Bozz was saying about her never getting distracted/etc a few strips back.

Maybe she won't get distracted because she's in too much pain to do anything but complete her objective so that Bozzok and Grubwiggler can release her from golemness. I don't know if that's how golems work, but I come to that conclusion because Roy's skeleton had a controller.

[kivzirrum]

C'mon Giant, show me you got a litlle G.R.R. Martin in you...
Kill another protagonist.... Do it!

I recoil in fear at your words. How could you ever wish death on Haley? :smalleek: Poor Elan!

[Aquatosic]

Late to this one, but gonna my piece anyway.

1) Holy crap! How many hitpoints does Haley have?!!! How has she been taking all those hits?!

2) Crystal golem is possibly the biggest victim here. No one deserves that, even if she would get something similar in whatever Hell she's going to.

[Shining Wrath]

Now I feel sorry for Crystal. I did not see that coming. Evidently whatever Grubwiggler did that let Crystal retain her murderous skills, also lets her hurt. Emotionally and physically.
Bozzok and Grubwiggler have some more sins to answer for.

I think Crystal is doing lightning damage to Haley in the last panel.

It is definitely time for the cavalry to arrive.

[Fitzclowningham]

Suddenly, I don't miss Thog that much anymore.

[HandofShadows]

Crystal didn't deserve that. Of course Haley didn't either. Why don't they go take it out on the person that DOES deserve it? :smalleek:

[Emperordaniel]

It's a good thing there were gnodeaths in this comic; I would have cried otherwise. :smallfrown:

[Purgatorius]

That's why Crystal was so angry all the time.

[Quild]

I recoil in fear at your words. How could you ever wish death on Haley? :smalleek: Poor Elan!
Durkon still have some Diamond Dust.

Which he wouldn't have afterwards if another player was to die.
Or if they found a cleric that has the ability to raise Durkon but not the components.

It's way more fun to enter the last dungeon without a phoenix down :o

[-Sentinel-]

I'm going to agree with many people here -- I feel sympathy for Crystal. :smalleek:



I recoil in fear at your words. How could you ever wish death on Haley? :smalleek: Poor Elan!
I'm confident Haley will survive this story. The Oracle predicted a happy ending for Elan, and I doubt he can have a happy ending without Haley.

[Shining Wrath]

It's a twist on a poem verse from Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. Rage against the dying of the light.

http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

I was about to post my appreciation to the Giant for it :)

Specifically, this stanza:


Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

There's a lot of ways to read that in the context of this strip, but right now I'm reading it as Crystal did not go gentle into that good night.

Just so everyone can have their daily dose of awesome, I leave you with Thomas' last stanza


And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

[Liliet]

Ooooooooooouch...
*winces*

okay I really liked girls making a priority of protecting the gnomes (they might be the police, but in this fight they are severely underlevelled)

can we have Haley and Crystal teaming up to take revenge on Bozzok
Haley thought Crystal would be resurrected, too...

and btw I would not object to seeing CG heaven. I don't think that's what The Giant is going for here but if it ends up being this, I'll be happy. Roy being judged is one of my favorite scenes in the entire comic, runner-up to the great V scenes.

[kivzirrum]

Durkon still have some Diamond Dust.

Which he wouldn't have afterwards if another player was to die.
Or if they found a cleric that has the ability to raise Durkon but not the components.

It's way more fun to enter the last dungeon without a phoenix down :o

This is true, but I felt the comparison to George R R Martin implied a more permanent sort of death :P Not that I think that could actually happen, due to Elan's prophecy. Anyone else? Maybe at some point they'll croak. Elan and Haley? Not likely!

[Torzini]

This is true, but I felt the comparison to George R R Martin implied a more permanent sort of death :P Not that I think that could actually happen, due to Elan's prophecy. Anyone else? Maybe at some point they'll croak. Elan and Haley? Not likely!

I very much doubt Haley will die permanently here, but I like what (I think?) Quild said about the team using up their remaining diamond dust on rezzing Haley here... and then not having any left over for Durkon at a possible much later point.

[Ezekiel]

For some reason Crystal in this comic calls to mind this quote from Herman Melville (apparently the book title gets censored):

He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it.

[kivzirrum]

I very much doubt Haley will die permanently here, but I like what (I think?) Quild said about the team using up their remaining diamond dust on rezzing Haley here... and then not having any left over for Durkon at a possible much later point.

You know, I'm definitely in the minority, but I've given up on ever trying to predict what will happen in this comic :smalltongue: It's too twisty and I've only been right once, so I don't seem to have a knack for it. That said, this is something I could definitely see happening as an added little bit of tension. Or at least, needing to use it at SOME point, to ensure that it's not available at a later, more critical, moment.

[Angelalex242]

If Haley dies here, she's DEFINITELY going to make it into Arborea...where she'll probably spend her time chilling with Lord Shojo smoking cigars made of poorly worded legal documents.

[Emperordaniel]

If Haley dies here, she's DEFINITELY going to make it into Arborea...where she'll probably spend her time chilling with Lord Shojo smoking cigars made of poorly worded legal documents.

I see Haley as more of a pipe person, myself...

[happycrow]

Well, that's completely logical. It must rather suck to be a fully sentient and self-ware golem. Wouldn't wish that on my worst frenemy.

[talkamancer]

I think Hayley is going to die here. Can durkular resurrect Her ? Using that spare diamond dust and lose the stake n bake option on himself ?

[Peelee]

I'm callin' it here - Elan has already woken up and is about to arrive with/as reinforcements.

It's a twist on a poem verse from Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. Rage against the dying of the light.

http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

I was about to post my appreciation to the Giant for it :)
Man, I had long forgotten about how epic that poem was. I'm glad you reminded me. Thank you, sir.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Come on Elan, go get Roy and the others... wake up... wake up.

I don't want to win my wager, but it's looking ever more likely. :smallfrown:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It made me so happy to see Bandana and Haley saving gnomes, pushing them out of the way, being good people.

You know, I think I'd like bandana more if the gnomes weren't taking up all of my character-liking strength.

I'm sure she'll become one of my favorite characters once this is all over, but for now she's kinda just hatless, like Haley.

[Torzini]

You know, I'm definitely in the minority, but I've given up on ever trying to predict what will happen in this comic :smalltongue: It's too twisty and I've only been right once, so I don't seem to have a knack for it. That said, this is something I could definitely see happening as an added little bit of tension. Or at least, needing to use it at SOME point, to ensure that it's not available at a later, more critical, moment.

Oh, I totally agree. :smallbiggrin: Not trying to say that this will happen. Just that I like the idea of it, more than anything else.

[Psyren]

Makes sense to me. It may have interesting implications for some past scenes, as well.

Not really seeing how - she is a special case, the only intelligent golem we've seen in the entire comic. If the others feel pain, they certainly don't show it.



1) Holy crap! How many hitpoints does Haley have?!!! How has she been taking all those hits?!

Crystal's big damage came from catching a target (Elan) flat-footed with sneak attack and possibly death attack. The rest has been just slam damage - not trivial (2d8+5) but a ~15th level character can take a few whacks.

[KillingAScarab]

Count me amongst those who got a little creeped out by the revelation that Crystal is in constant pain. #976: Hard Sell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html) had so much else going on that I didn't realize Crystal probably shouldn't have screamed in pain.

Also, the harpoon didn't pierce Crystal in panel 2, and this page features the most punctuation from Crystal so far.


Also, I think this answers the question raised in the last thread about whether Crystal was hasted and/or charged up by the lightning or not.Yes, I think so. Now, I wonder if it has been discharged entirely... into Haley.


Is the comic title ("Rage Against The Lightning Of The Dead") a reference to something? I don't get it. The closet I can come is "Rage Against The Machine" but I don't think that's right.
It's a twist on a poem verse from Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. Rage against the dying of the light.

http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

I was about to post my appreciation to the Giant for it :)
Specifically, this stanza:



There's a lot of ways to read that in the context of this strip, but right now I'm reading it as Crystal did not go gentle into that good night.I actually thought it was a weird mash-up of Rage Against the Machine (foreshadowing the destruction of the steam tank), "Ride the Lightning" (a Metallica song about death by electrocution) and another song title, "A Song for the Dead." But, the poem makes a lot more sense.


On the other hand I wouldn't mind checking out the CG afterlife so I think it's win/win at this point :smalltongue: Either we get an awesome turnaround/comeuppance for Crystal/Bozzok, or Haley dies and we get to see Arborea.Hmm... somehow, I don't think Arborea is happening until Rich is ready to show what happened to Shojo.

[Catticus]

I like Haley and still don't like Crystal. (Her pain humanizes a her a bit...which ironic given she's not human any longer...but let's not gloss over who she is or what she's done on panel and off.) Plus, I'm an optimist. Crystal is totally exposed in the final panel, and Rich has gnomes aplenty, Bandana (who's been great), and the entire Order at his disposal, and Haley may yet have a trick up her sleeve. Darkest before dawn and all that. Come on dawn!

Separately, as my daughter's father, I love this arc: two female protagonists against a female villain for pages. Take that Bechdel test. I'm really hoping Haley and Bandana pull this one out on their own, but I like each of them and the larger story enough that I'll happily take a Roy/Elan/Disney-Prince-Whoever save.

[kivzirrum]

Count me amongst those who got a little creeped out by the revelation that Crystal is in constant pain. #976: Hard Sell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0976.html) had so much else going on that I didn't realize Crystal probably shouldn't have screamed in pain.


Whoa, nice catch, even if it did require hindsight. That didn't occur to me at all, either!

[Shining Wrath]

I like Haley and still don't like Crystal. (Her pain humanizes a her a bit...which ironic given she's not human any longer...but let's not gloss over who she is or what she's done on panel and off.) Plus, I'm an optimist. Crystal is totally exposed in the final panel, and Rich has gnomes aplenty, Bandana (who's been great), and the entire Order at his disposal, and Haley may yet have a trick up her sleeve. Darkest before dawn and all that. Come on dawn!

Separately, as my daughter's father, I love this arc: two female protagonists against a female villain for pages. Take that Bechdel test. I'm really hoping Haley and Bandana pull this one out on their own, but I like each of them and the larger story enough that I'll happily take a Roy/Elan/Disney-Prince-Whoever save.

I, too, like the capable women taking on the monster, by themselves, for pages and pages. Haley and Bandanna being saved by members of the Order at this point would not so much be "men to the rescue" as it would be "rest of the team to the rescue, irrespective of gender". If Roy was getting knocked around by flying monsters, and Haley showed up and started shooting them out of the air, I wouldn't view that as "woman saves man", I'd view that "ranged combat can be a very handy thing". The Order is a team, one or two being female.

[allenw]

Hmm... somehow, I don't think Arborea is happening until Rich is ready to show what happened to Shojo.

If Crystal kills Haley, she might end up in Valhalla, what with her worshipping Thor and all. Which might be a way for her to find out about Durkula, now that I think about it.

[Angelalex242]

The heroic domain of Ysgard, where Thor hangs out, is a CG/CN plane.

However, Haley has way too much good in her to be shunted to Ysgard. She...makes it pretty solidly into Arborea, considering how selfless she's been being.

[Peelee]

I'm sure she'll become one of my favorite characters once this is all over, but for now she's kinda just hatless, like Haley.

Thanks to you, I now have a new descriptor for anything i find unimpressive.

[kivzirrum]

The heroic domain of Ysgard, where Thor hangs out, is a CG/CN plane.

However, Haley has way too much good in her to be shunted to Ysgard. She...makes it pretty solidly into Arborea, considering how selfless she's been being.

We don't know enough about metaphysics in the OotS universe to know if this is true. We know that there are some differences between it and standard D&D cosmology in regards to the "dwarves that die with dishonor go to Hel's domain" aspect. Maybe if you're a devout worshipper of Thor, you go to Thor's domain automatically.

... That said, I really don't think Haley counts, anyway.

[Deepbluediver]

Oh dear- is Haley gonna be the next character to visit the big mountain in the sky?

[Psyren]

Hmm... somehow, I don't think Arborea is happening until Rich is ready to show what happened to Shojo.

Even if Rich kills her, he might opt to not show the afterlife (going through the judgement scene again might be dull, plus you risk bogging down the comic trying to determine whether she's chaotic or neutral - a very fuzzy line.) He could instead just have her describe briefly what happened after she's brought back, retaining the same sorts of memories Roy did.


Whoa, nice catch, even if it did require hindsight. That didn't occur to me at all, either!

Well, we've had Xykon and Malack yelling in pain when damaged too, so I'd assume that any intelligent version of a lifeless creature can express it, and we knew she was intelligent pretty much since "NICE BOOTS" - so I don't consider this particularly earth-shattering.

[truemane]

I just wanted to say that Haley's expression in the second last panel made me smile.

Dubious Haley is dubious.

[BannedInSchool]

Yeah, I was feeling sorry for Crystal by panel four and the "I hate everyone".

[t209]

So Bionic Flesh Golem?

[kivzirrum]

Even if Rich kills her, he might opt to not show the afterlife (going through the judgement scene again might be dull, plus you risk bogging down the comic trying to determine whether she's chaotic or neutral - a very fuzzy line.) He could instead just have her describe briefly what happened after she's brought back, retaining the same sorts of memories Roy did.

I agree with this. If she croaks, I doubt we'd see the afterlife, except any parts that would be relevant to the ongoing story, which is unlikely to include a retread of a scene we had years ago.


Well, we've had Xykon and Malack yelling in pain when damaged too, so I'd assume that any intelligent version of a lifeless creature can express it, and we knew she was intelligent pretty much since "NICE BOOTS" - so I don't consider this particularly earth-shattering.

Fair enough, though undead and golems are pretty different. Still, an interesting bit of foreshadowing to her revelation in the last panel of today's comic.

[Anarion]

This is all feeling a bit karmic. Haley killing Crystal as she did wasn't one of her better moments. I'd really prefer she not die though. Where's the rest of the party?

[deimos3428]

For some reason I'm reminded of Dark Mistress Shadowgale, way back in #93. That would be epic-level foreshadowing.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html

[Ionbound]

Hmm...*idly wonders about the possibility of an undead Haley, courtesy of Durkula*

[semi]

I was thinking that maybe Haley dying here would work great for Durkula?

She dies and he heroically sacrifices his chance to be deaded/resurrected in favor of her. That way we get Durkula doing the "good" thing, putting another party member ahead of himself, they use up a Rez opportunity, and everything continues along the story line.

Just a thought.

[littlebum2002]

Did....did Crystal just turn into a sympathetic character?

[faustin]

But what fate would be worse for someone like Crystal: the torments of the un-life, or the ones of the afterlife? Remember, she was an unrepentant murderer.

[Shining Wrath]

Did....did Crystal just turn into a sympathetic character?

Yes.

Astonishingly good writing by the Giant.

Which means (I hope) that we will get to see the Order stomp Bozzok so hard, so very hard. We're talking "Disintegrate. Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" as dozens of adorable gnomes throw adorable hats in the air in celebration.

[mouser9169]

My prediction is that Durkula will come and save Haley, earning him even more trust from Roy et al.

[mouser9169]

Even if Rich kills her, he might opt to not show the afterlife (going through the judgement scene again might be dull, plus you risk bogging down the comic trying to determine whether she's chaotic or neutral - a very fuzzy line.) He could instead just have her describe briefly what happened after she's brought back, retaining the same sorts of memories Roy did.


We do have precedent via Jirix for a god to send a message back via a resurrected soul.

[Shining Wrath]

My prediction is that Durkula will come and save Haley, earning him even more trust from Roy et al.

Plausible, along with the long-anticipated death of Belkar saving Haley.

Myself, I think Elan has been unconscious just long enough - and the Dashing Swordsman class requires him to arrive at the most dramatic possible moment. And this does look like the most dramatic moment, as Haley is being both strangled and electrocuted.

Not only that, as some character growth we'll get to see Elan be actually effective - because with Haley's life on the line, Elan's INT score goes up by ~10 points.

[Bulldog Psion]

Thanks to you, I now have a new descriptor for anything i find unimpressive.

Thank you for highlighting that.

"How was the movie?"

"Meh, kinda hatless."

:smallbiggrin:

[Lexible]

. . . o 0 O (Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets a happy ending. Elan gets... )

[Lexible]

My prediction is that Durkula will come and save Haley, earning him even more trust from Roy et al.

Prediction: Durkula will do so by "selflessly" giving the one resurrection potion McGuffin they managed to obtain in town for Haley, rather than using it on himself.

[chy03001]

Huh... does this mean Crystal doesn't have damage reduction so much as regeneration? If she's always feeling pain, then clearly it's getting through.

Or is it like a mental pain that doesn't equal hp loss?

[Keltest]

Prediction: Durkula will do so by "selflessly" giving the one resurrection potion they managed to obtain in town for Haley, rather than using it on himself.

How would a resurrection potion even work? You generally have to drink those.

As for scrolls, Durkon couldn't use one on himself regardless.

[kivzirrum]

Huh... does this mean Crystal doesn't have damage reduction so much as regeneration? If she's always feeling pain, then clearly it's getting through.

Or is it like a mental pain that doesn't equal hp loss?

My assumption is the latter. I don't think her always being in pain necessarily is the same as always taking damage.

[Zyzzyva]

Man, you guys are all wusses. I'm quietly hoping for a 2/3PK just so we can see Arcadia, Pandemonium, the Outlands, and Ysgard (does ludicrously LG Durkon get to go there because just he wants to, cf. his BRitF introduction?)

...Well, not really, but I'm confident that if Haley bites it here, it will be for a story purpose.


Huh... does this mean Crystal doesn't have damage reduction so much as regeneration? If she's always feeling pain, then clearly it's getting through.

Or is it like a mental pain that doesn't equal hp loss?

I assume it's the continuous, searing agony of being a stitched-together abomination wrenched back from the peace of the grave. :smallfrown:

[Shining Wrath]

My assumption is the latter. I don't think her always being in pain necessarily is the same as always taking damage.

She may have been put back together rather carelessly, and bones are rubbing against bones as she moves. Every step hurts, her horror at her own condition hurts, her hatred of herself, Bozzok, gnomes, Bandana, and especially Haley hurts, being stabbed with adamantine weapons hurts ...

It sucks to be her.

Also, I assume Crystal's soul must have spent some time in the hereafter before Bozzok had Grubwiggler rezzed and Grubwiggler pulled Crystal's soul back into the golem body. That process would take some time. So as she roams about in pain both emotional and physical, she is also tormented by the memory of what waits when she falls in combat - for her capacity for repentance seems limited.


... SNIP ...
I assume it's the continuous, searing agony of being a stitched-together abomination wrenched back from the peace of the grave. :smallfrown:
Based on what the Giant has shown of Hell (cf V's visit to the IFCC), I doubt Crystal's post-mortem condition could be described as peaceful.

[Sky_Schemer]

Damn. This is some pretty amazing artwork.

Doing an intricate action sequence with stick figures cannot be easy. Absolutely worth the wait for this.

[oppyu]

Yay! Haley and Bandana saved all the gnomes, go team Chaotic Good!

Just... try to find a way to not die now Haley.

[Sky_Schemer]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lde99wm6dY1qaqmn1o1_500.jpg

[Doug Lampert]

It made me so happy to see Bandana and Haley saving gnomes, pushing them out of the way, being good people.

You know, I think I'd like bandana more if the gnomes weren't taking up all of my character-liking strength.

I'm sure she'll become one of my favorite characters once this is all over, but for now she's kinda just hatless, like Haley.
Thanks to you, I now have a new descriptor for anything i find unimpressive.

And always remember, "any plan where you lose your hat is a bad plan (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017#.VQr8XtLF-So)".

[Angelalex242]

Maybe the grateful gnomes will pull a hat trick to save them. Doesn't have to be the rest of the party to the rescue, after all.

[Commander672]

She's unstoppable!

Quick! Bring out the steam-powered chainsaws!

*Edit: Anyone know what kind of pant Crystal is wearing right now? They don't cover her legs at all, but they don't match the underwear/bikini setup worn by characters in earlier comics. Maybe she's wearing cutoffs?

Yes, I know that's a weird question to ask when Haley's getting choked to death by a raging flesh-golem Crystal.

[Panandaro]

This fight is having more and more in common with the roy/thog fight. Now it's about at the talky man hurt puppy phase. I wonder if it will end with Crystal being buried under a pile of rubble?

[Torzini]

We're talking "Disintegrate. Disintegrate. Gust of Wind" as dozens of adorable gnomes throw adorable hats in the air in celebration.

This mental image is insanely cute (the mass hat-throwing, not so much the disintegrating). I very much hope that we get to see this after the Crystal arc is over. :smallbiggrin:

Giant, show us all the hats!

[ti'esar]

Brrr. That last line was actually fairly creepy.

But yay, the gnomes all lived!

[Tvtyrant]

Man this was a great strip. The bullet timey view showing the tank collapse under a punch while the gnomes shoot at her was awesome.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Why would Haley have to go through an afterlife trial? She's CHAOTIC.

Guardinal dressed as a bouncer: "Hey Red, go on in. You're cool."

Best thing for her in the Planes would be a chance to see her mother, however briefly. Make a nice counterpoint to those scenes with Ian last book.

[Angelalex242]

...Guardinal? No, Eladrin. Guardinals are the NG animalistic Celestials. Eladrin are the Faelike CG Celestials.

So it's really 'join us in our eternal Fae style party!'

[Zyzzyva]

Why would Haley have to go through an afterlife trial? She's CHAOTIC.

Chaotic afterlife trial: "Yeah, I know it looks like an awesome party, but sorry, nope, you're not allowed in there." Anyone who doesn't go in anyways isn't chaotic enough to qualify. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

Plausible, along with the long-anticipated death of Belkar saving Haley.


I did mention that I thought it would be Belkar to the rescue again - even if he gets raised and goes talking about Durkon's new religious choices (which he would know from being raised) it is likely that people would not believe him (though his sacrifice would likely cause some doubt).

Haley dying is less likely to be brought back by Durkon as he might be concerned about the exact same knowledge being imparted.

[Shining Wrath]

I did mention that I thought it would be Belkar to the rescue again - even if he gets raised and goes talking about Durkon's new religious choices (which he would know from being raised) it is likely that people would not believe him (though his sacrifice would likely cause some doubt).

Haley dying is less likely to be brought back by Durkon as he might be concerned about the exact same knowledge being imparted.

The question is, then, does HPoH know anything about the afterlife of other alignments? There are certainly gaps in his education.

[Tragak]

Chaotic afterlife trial: "Yeah, I know it looks like an awesome party, but sorry, nope, you're not allowed in there." Anyone who doesn't go in anyways isn't chaotic enough to qualify. :smallwink: Tyler Durden would certainly be proud :smallwink:

"First Rule of Ysgard: You do not talk about Ysgard. Second Rule of Ysgard: You do Not! Talk! About Ysgard!"

[Chatterbox]

Wow, that's amazing. Did I just find myself empathizing with Crystal's plight?





No, no I didn't. I'd say she's getting her just deserts.

[ti'esar]

This has to have been one of the more absolutely groanworthy comic titles in quite a while, incidentally.

And I kind of hope that Bozzok winds up being absolutely slaughtered by the end of this.

[Zyzzyva]

Tyler Durden would certainly be proud :smallwink:

"First Rule of Ysgard: You do not talk about Ysgard. Second Rule of Ysgard: You do Not! Talk! About Ysgard!"

"...And the eighth and final rule: If this is your first night at Ysgard, you have to fight. This also applies to every other night at Ysgard."

[Pronounceable]

If this wasn't a DnD world with proven afterlife complete with judgements and punishments/rewards, I'd say Crystal's stint as an agonized flesh golem (before she gets inevitably destroyed) is exactly what she deserved for a lifetime of villainy. As it is though, I'm pretty sure Grubbwiggler did her a favor by pulling her off of whatever hell she went to. So when OotS inevitably destroys the golem, she's going back to eternaldamnationville.

I don't usually bother myself overly much with "morality of DnD" stuff; but it does seem like killing good people ranges from "no big deal" to "great improvement" for their lot in existence, whereas killing evil people always sends them off to eternal suffering. It's pretty fubar.

[Mike Havran]

Wow, Chrystal is so emo. Must be a very special sort of golem.


If this wasn't a DnD world with proven afterlife complete with judgements and punishments/rewards, I'd say Crystal's stint as an agonized flesh golem (before she gets inevitably destroyed) is exactly what she deserved for a lifetime of villainy. As it is though, I'm pretty sure Grubbwiggler did her a favor by pulling her off of whatever hell she went to. So when OotS inevitably destroys the golem, she's going back to eternaldamnationville.

I don't usually bother myself overly much with "morality of DnD" stuff; but it does seem like killing good people ranges from "no big deal" to "great improvement" for their lot in existence, whereas killing evil people always sends them off to eternal suffering. It's pretty fubar..
I'm not so sure Evil afterlife works that way. Perhaps it's just Evil evironment where champions of Evil would actually feel fine and ''at home''. Image of an Evil deity that torments its loyal Evil cleric just because he/she served faithfully on Mortal plane seems absurd.

[Keltest]

If this wasn't a DnD world with proven afterlife complete with judgements and punishments/rewards, I'd say Crystal's stint as an agonized flesh golem (before she gets inevitably destroyed) is exactly what she deserved for a lifetime of villainy. As it is though, I'm pretty sure Grubbwiggler did her a favor by pulling her off of whatever hell she went to. So when OotS inevitably destroys the golem, she's going back to eternaldamnationville.

I don't usually bother myself overly much with "morality of DnD" stuff; but it does seem like killing good people ranges from "no big deal" to "great improvement" for their lot in existence, whereas killing evil people always sends them off to eternal suffering. It's pretty fubar.

My understanding is that evil souls are usually quite satisfied with their afterlives. The evil gods would have a hard time recruiting if they promised an eternity of torment as your eternal reward. Any punishment is usually a result of being trapped with nobody besides equally unpleasant backstabbers as yourself rather than from any deliberate attempt by the powers that be to make you unhappy.

A lawful evil afterlife, for example, might be recruitment into a highly regimented army, where you work your way up the command structure by way of merit, and then go about conquering other adjacent areas.

[Zyzzyva]

A lawful evil afterlife, for example, might be recruitment into a highly regimented army, where you work your way up the command structure by way of merit, and then go about conquering other adjacent areas.

Without even leaving the comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html), that's more or less where LE Hobgoblins go canonically. I'm sure they don't do much negotiating, taking of prisoners, or respecting-of-civilians, but the goblinoid rank and file seem happy with it.

[GM_3826]

In D&D, Evil characters like their Evil afterlives. Probably the same deal in OOTS. So, Crystal is much worse off now.

Speaking of which, holy **** what was this update?

[Xihirli]

:smallfurious: Indeed, Jirix saw the Lawful Evil afterlife for followers of the Dark One. He was about to join in a great army. "Not yet," though.
Crystal is just intelligible enough to show us what a golem is. A horrifying monster forced to continue its existence.
Bozzok, you are a master of cruelty.
Creating golems is a great evil. Much like necromancy, but with more Frankenstein references. :smallfurious:

[Killer Angel]

Interesting development. I'll never look at flesh golem in the same way.

Will someone save Haley? and who?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I don't think Crystal being able to feel pain, or even being in constant pain, makes her more sympathetic.

The worst mass-murderers in our real history could feel pain. They just didn't care about the pain they inflicted on others. That is what separates the sociopaths from us.

What makes you sympathetic is not that you can feel pain, but whether you give a care about harming others.

Crystal, right now, if anything, is even less sympathetic than she was when she was alive. Now, she's bent on destroying everyone and everything in between her and Haley, whereas she was a bit more choosy about who dies when she was a human being.

Now then, I don't think even Crystal deserved to die in the manner she did, that was a pretty dark moment for Haley, in my view, and also, as much as I love Haley (my favorite character) I completely understand Crystal's desire to return the favor, and think it's even justifiable at this point.

The instant flesh golem Crystal lost any of that understanding was when she was willing to hurt anyone besides Haley in her quest for vengeance.

If Crystal wanted nothing but Haley's death, and avoided killing or harming others, she would actually be far more sympathetic in my eyes than she was when she was alive.

Crystal, as she is, in constant pain? She might not have deserved that initially. But she does now. And she's continuing to earn it with every action she takes.

Don't weep for Crystal. She'd slaughter you and not shed one tear about it.

Feeling sympathy for Crystal shows your humanity, but she has none left.

If your dog, the most loyal companion of all time, turned into a zombie dog and wanted to bite you, kill you, and eat you, that's when you've got to realize your faithful companion is dead. That's not him. Just like Durkula is not Durkon.

Flesh Golem crystal may retain her memories and feel pain, but she is even less of a sympathetic being than Crystal was.

I could argue this point further with real life examples of even mass murderers who felt sympathy toward some of their would-be victims, and hesitated, and let them live, because (sometimes) even evil has some standards. However that's a little dark for this discussion.

The point is, Crystal doesn't care who dies, as long as she achieves her goal, and she's demonstrating this. Sympathy is a very respectable trait you guys have, but it is wasted on her, because she has none to offer in return.

[Mike Havran]

:smallfurious: Indeed, Jirix saw the Lawful Evil afterlife for followers of the Dark One. He was about to join in a great army. "Not yet," though.
I think Jirix went to Acheron, which is not strictly LE afterlife, but in between of LE and LN.

[Angelalex242]

It's the plane of War. War tends to have highly regimented armies...in which...more often then not, bad things happen to the enemy. It's not as evil as Baator because nobody's going out of their way to make SURE bad things happen, but everyone is turning a blind eye to it, so long as order is maintained in the unit.

[Jasdoif]

The point is, Crystal doesn't care who dies, as long as she achieves her goal, and she's demonstrating this. Sympathy is a very respectable trait you guys have, but it is wasted on her, because she has none to offer in return.Doesn't matter. Sympathy is not zero-sum, nor should "deserving" have much influence on it.

[kabukiman1973]

I don't think Crystal being able to feel pain, or even being in constant pain, makes her more sympathetic.


The point is, Crystal doesn't care who dies, as long as she achieves her goal, and she's demonstrating this. Sympathy is a very respectable trait you guys have, but it is wasted on her, because she has none to offer in return.


We waste it in her because as you pointed, we are good normal humans and not psychos...

[kivzirrum]

I don't think Crystal being able to feel pain, or even being in constant pain, makes her more sympathetic.


To each their own, but I certainly wouldn't wish constant agony on anyone, even Crystal. Crystal might wish that on someone, but, well, like you said, Crystal's a nut.

I feel bad for her. Doesn't mean I suddenly like her or want her to be okay. I just hope she's put out of her misery soon!

[Emperordaniel]

Hmm...*idly wonders about the possibility of an undead Haley, courtesy of Durkula*

Unless the High Priest of Hel suddenly switches sides and joins Crystal, and then lands the finishing blow himself via slam or blood drain, the only "undead" Haley'd be turned into is a wight or zombie or something (never mind the fact that it's pretty unlikely that the HPoH prepared any undead-making spells today).

[Mordokai]

Never thought I'd say that, but... that last panel actually made me feel sorry for Crystal.

[WindStruck]

I'm sure Haley and Crystal will have a nice girlchat, and she'll say something like even though Crystal was a heinous, murderous, balloon-headed tramp with no fashion sense in life, she didn't deserve this! Bozzok is the one who made her a golem when he should have resurrected her to keep the primary rival theme going! And then Crystal will turn on her master and destroy them, they will be besties forever... until Haley drops her off into a pool of lava laughing maniacally about her hair.

edit: then we'll have a scene that calls back to Terminator 2.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just realized what one of the great things about Belkar showing up would be seeing if Crystal flips out at the guy who called her a 'dumb pickle woman'. And then see if Belkar even remembers her.:smallwink:

[Clistenes]

What i want to know is if crystal also (partially) blames bozzok for her pain, or if she's still blindly loyal to Bozzok. It can't be a picnic to know that your boss decided to animate you as a golem instead of resurrecting you, especially since he got grubwiggler resurrected just to make her.

I wonder if she'll lash out at bozzok at some point. Or if this is a side-event for Haley only.

Well, flesh golems can become berserk during combat, a state in which they attack everything at range, their master or creator included. This state is due to the elemental spirit trapped inside managing to break control and expressing its rage. I guess it would be even worse for soul-powered golems.

She would probably attack Bozzok and Grubwiggler if they were close during a berserk rage, but otherwise she is forced to obey them, even if she hates them.

[137beth]

Time for Roy to come to the rescue...

[Spanish_Paladin]

Pheeew... no dead gnomes :)

I expect that the rest of the order hear the battle and saves Haley. Roy, Durkon (and Belkar in the near future) are enough deaths of primary characters.

I also feel compassion for Crystal for a moment in the last panel.

[Metahuman1]

You know, Evil get's a sort of Evil Heaven in D&D. Crystal was yanked away form that. Because Roy's Girlfriend HAD to be a pacifist in a setting that does NOT support it. She could have just used some violence for self defense and let the dead rest. But no.




This is a direct consequence of that, and I'm shocked were 5 pages in with out that being pointed out. Gotta try to mix lawful and good. (I become increasingly convinced as I age that the term lawful good is in fact an Oxymoron and the two are intrinsically incompatible.) And this is the result. If she had left Bozzak and wizard dude stay dead, this would not be happening now. And I hope Hayley get's to call her and Roy on it something fierce.





Honestly, I hope Hayley dies, get's a nice moment with her mom, and get's, if she recalls nothing else, to remember that, and a strong, strong, strong warning from Thor and Odin and Lord Shojo on exactly what's going on with HPoH, thus ending the stupid ruse sub plot that I hate.

[ti'esar]

...I think it's a real stretch to blame Celia for this.

[Keltest]

You know, Evil get's a sort of Evil Heaven in D&D. Crystal was yanked away form that. Because Roy's Girlfriend HAD to be a pacifist in a setting that does NOT support it. She could have just used some violence for self defense and let the dead rest. But no.




This is a direct consequence of that, and I'm shocked were 5 pages in with out that being pointed out. Gotta try to mix lawful and good. (I become increasingly convinced as I age that the term lawful good is in fact an Oxymoron and the two are intrinsically incompatible.) And this is the result. If she had left Bozzak and wizard dude stay dead, this would not be happening now. And I hope Hayley get's to call her and Roy on it something fierce.





Honestly, I hope Hayley dies, get's a nice moment with her mom, and get's, if she recalls nothing else, to remember that, and a strong, strong, strong warning from Thor and Odin and Lord Shojo on exactly what's going on with HPoH, thus ending the stupid ruse sub plot that I hate.


Huh? Crystal DID die, as did Grubwiggler. Celia didn't resurrect them or anything...

If youre suggesting that they should have killed Bozzok, Haley was more than capable of ignoring Celia and killing him herself, but she was convinced at the time that the benefits of letting him live outweighed the benefits of killing him, which is a perfectly legitimate reason not to kill him.

[WindStruck]

It wasn't Celia's fault. That's like blaming an accident you had on a pedestrian you slowed down for a few minutes back, which then caused you to hit someone when you ran that red light. Because certainly if that person hadn't slowed you down, the car wouldn't have been in your way at that exact moment!

[veti]

You know, Evil get's a sort of Evil Heaven in D&D. Crystal was yanked away form that. Because Roy's Girlfriend HAD to be a pacifist in a setting that does NOT support it. She could have just used some violence for self defense and let the dead rest. But no.

How. on. Earth. can you blame this on Celia?

Because she stopped Haley from killing Bozzok? Yeah, that would've cost +1 resurrection to reverse.

Or because she stopped Bozzok (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html) from killing Haley? Actually, that's about the one thing she could've changed that would have prevented this chain of events.

Haley was the one who killed Crystal. Bozzok was the one who had Grubwiggler (killed by Crystal) raised, then Grubwiggler golemised Crystal and, through some means that will probably never be explained, imbued her with her former soul.

We don't know where this "nothing but pain" of Crystal's comes from. Maybe it's present in all flesh golems (those stitches don't look very comfortable), maybe it only affects them when a human soul is put inside (an elemental doesn't even have the concept of "pain"). Maybe Crystal's soul is still in the lower planes, and the "pain" she complains of is just the normal torture of that place.


Faustus: How comes it then that thou art out of hell?
Mephistopheles: Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it.

Or maybe it's entirely spiritual - she's tormented by the knowledge of her own failure and lost potential. We don't know.

And Celia comes into that chain of events - where?

[dancrilis]

The question is, then, does HPoH know anything about the afterlife of other alignments? There are certainly gaps in his education.

It seems there are gaps in my education also - I was sure that raise dead and similar spells gave information on the cleric (alignment and deity) to the person being raised, but I cannot find reference to that now that I look.

[Tom Lehmann]

A fascinating and enjoyable strip.

In D&D games, defeating monsters or villains usually means killing them, often in an almost off-hand manner. By engaging our empathy with Crystal being in constant pain, Rich begins the process of re-evaluating Haley's quick-kill "solution" to her Crystal "problem" back in strip 648.

Of course, it is not only the protagonists who can treat other sentient beings callously. Bozzok's decision to create Crystal Golem as the perfect killer "tool" cries out for a comeuppance.

I wonder whether confronting past acts is going to be book VI's theme? By focusing on the specific first, is Rich laying the thematic groundwork for later dealing with V and the black dragons?

This strip continues to pile on Haley's damage. As a main character considered by some to be protected by "plot armor" (and Elan's "Happy Ending"), the total damage is starting to be enough to make readers wonder, "Is Rich going to off Haley?"

Beyond the tactical plot implications of a death and raise (removing Durkula's diamond dust and revealing Durkula's patron deity, Hel, to Haley (if OOTS matches D&D rules here)), I wonder if Haley's death would make her "conversion" to worshipping Thor in strip 743 actual foreshadowing and more than just a subterfuge/joke...

Haley taking mucho damage raises expectations that other party members will show up and intervene, despite D&D's 6-second combat rounds making this encounter only 2-4 minutes so far (depending on how many rounds have been spent running off-panel). The Gnomeland Security squad made very good time...

Personally, I hope either Haley, Bandana, and the gnomes can solve this on their own or that Haley dies before the "cavalry" arrives. I think either of these is more interesting. I'm eager to see what Rich has in mind.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

You know, Evil get's a sort of Evil Heaven in D&D. Crystal was yanked away form that. Because Roy's Girlfriend HAD to be a pacifist in a setting that does NOT support it. She could have just used some violence for self defense and let the dead rest. But no.


This is a direct consequence of that, and I'm shocked were 5 pages in with out that being pointed out. Gotta try to mix lawful and good. (I become increasingly convinced as I age that the term lawful good is in fact an Oxymoron and the two are intrinsically incompatible.) And this is the result. If she had left Bozzak and wizard dude stay dead, this would not be happening now. And I hope Hayley get's to call her and Roy on it something fierce.

Honestly, I hope Hayley dies, get's a nice moment with her mom, and get's, if she recalls nothing else, to remember that, and a strong, strong, strong warning from Thor and Odin and Lord Shojo on exactly what's going on with HPoH, thus ending the stupid ruse sub plot that I hate.
I hope you are aware that Celia had nothing to do with Grubwiggler's death and that Bozzok didn't even die during that encounter.

Thanks to you, I now have a new descriptor for anything i find unimpressive.

Didn't even notice this at first. Totally going to use this from now on.

[Elenna]

...Huh. I almost feel bad for Crystal now. I mean, she's still an evil murdering idiot, but constant pain is a little much.

Yay for Haley and Bandana saving the gnomes! I'm predicting Haley's going to die, because for dramatic purposes they need to lose that last diamond dust somehow. Then again, my ability to predict what will happen in this comic is pretty much nil.

[Mauve Shirt]

Oh god, not another dead party member please.

Haley needs some kind of special protection against lightning. That's two airborne (jumping counts, right?) trollops who've used it.

[Jasdoif]

It seems there are gaps in my education also - I was sure that raise dead and similar spells gave information on the cleric (alignment and deity) to the person being raised, but I cannot find reference to that now that I look.Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead)


Revivification against One's Will

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

[dancrilis]

Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead)

Cool, cheers (turns out I wasn't merely making things up).

I was looking under the spells directly so missed it.

[Shining Wrath]

It seems there are gaps in my education also - I was sure that raise dead and similar spells gave information on the cleric (alignment and deity) to the person being raised, but I cannot find reference to that now that I look.

SRD spell descriptions say the soul must be willing to return but don't say the recipient is aware of who is performing the spell. Odd, because I had some recollection of the raised person knowing who was doing the casting, but not necessarily their alignment or deity.

[Metahuman1]

Huh, that's odd, I could swear Hayley got to finish him. Been awhile.


That said, point still stands. Had Celia not butted in when she did, he'd have died. Further, had she not butted in Lawyer style AT ALL, all three of them would be dead, and so would basically the entire thieves guild (If not indeed the entire thieves guild.).

But, she was bound and determined that killing people in self defense could not possibly be the answer. To the point that they ALL got Resurrected with more of an Ax to grind then ever, save Crystal, and only cause Bozzak and Wizard dude are monsters in the truest sense of the word. Monsters Celia willfully saves and now, conveniently, isn't around to deal with the actual consequences of that choice to give herself a better nights sleep, leaving Hayley to pay the price.

And hell, take it a step further. Hayley specifically told Celia NOT to bother with that city, which meant EVERYTHING involving them could have been rendered irrelevant. Everything. Cause Hayley would still not really be on there radar the say she was for hundreds of strips before hand.

So, this is Celia's actions that started this chain of cause and effect. This is there consequence. It took quite awhile I grant but it's here.

[Keltest]

Huh, that's odd, I could swear Hayley got to finish him. Been awhile.


That said, point still stands. Had Celia not butted in when she did, he'd have died. Further, had she not butted in Lawyer style AT ALL, all three of them would be dead, and so would basically the entire thieves guild (If not indeed the entire thieves guild.).

But, she was bound and determined that killing people in self defense could not possibly be the answer. To the point that they ALL got Resurrected with more of an Ax to grind then ever, save Crystal, and only cause Bozzak and Wizard dude are monsters in the truest sense of the word. Monsters Celia willfully saves and now, conveniently, isn't around to deal with the actual consequences of that choice to give herself a better nights sleep, leaving Hayley to pay the price.

And hell, take it a step further. Hayley specifically told Celia NOT to bother with that city, which meant EVERYTHING involving them could have been rendered irrelevant. Everything. Cause Hayley would still not really be on there radar the say she was for hundreds of strips before hand.

So, this is Celia's actions that started this chain of cause and effect. This is there consequence. It took quite awhile I grant but it's here.

And if Haley hadn't left Greysky in the first place, this wouldn't be happening. And if Bozzok hadn't sought revenge, this wouldn't be happening. Celia played a pretty minor role in this conflict. Haley had some pretty compelling reasons to let Bozzok live; it wasn't just because Celia asker her to pretty please not kill the nasty half-orc. Haley got a lot out of that deal too, including Roy's body and a preemptive first strike against Crystal. Also, Celia's deal ended up getting Grubwiggler killed. It didn't save his life under any interpretation.

[goodpeople25]

And if Haley hadn't left Greysky in the first place, this wouldn't be happening. And if Bozzok hadn't sought revenge, this wouldn't be happening. Celia played a pretty minor role in this conflict. Haley had some pretty compelling reasons to let Bozzok live; it wasn't just because Celia asker her to pretty please not kill the nasty half-orc. Haley got a lot out of that deal too, including Roy's body and a preemptive first strike against Crystal. Also, Celia's deal ended up getting Grubwiggler killed. It didn't save his life under any interpretation.

Though i agree this line of reasoning is speculative and has no real use, Celia had more then a minor role in that arc, she got them out of azure city, entered Greysky city, stopped haley from killing Bozzok (though Belkar helped too)all leading to this situation. And the fact that she got them out of azure city didn't mean much in the long run cause V would of contacted them anyway ( either through the birds or epic magic as darth V)
Then again by that logic Celia helped to remove Belkar's MoJ. So still not much use but she didn't have a minor role in that arc qt all.

[Snails]

Askthepizzaguy won the thread on page 4. That was fast.

Crystal completely deserved to get murdered, even if I am not happy about Haley doing the deed. What this golem-life suffering of Crystal shows is the true nature of the poor company she chose to keep: Bozzok. Crystal deserves this fate because it is Bozzok's fault, and Crystal spend many good years helping Bozzok prosper.

Did she really not notice the quality of humanoid that was Bozzok? Or did she just not care because she never thought it would come back to bite her personally?

Too bad, Crystal. You had it coming.

[GM_3826]

...I feel like you people just don't like Celia. Celia did nothing wrong. In fact, she probably could be a pacifist if her boyfriend wasn't an adventurer. Anyone with the an understanding of logic and cause-and-effect would tell you: blaming Celia is ultimately a fallacy: This is Haley's fault through and through.
Celia would know. She's an ATTORNEY. Saying that she did it wouldn't hold up in a court.
Edit: Of course, the fact that she's an attorney is irrelevant for the matter at hand. Just thought it was for some reason.
If you want me to argue a bit more, by all means.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

As a brief intermission to this intense debate, Id just like to say I love the art for these panels Rick! Some of my favorite by far

[theMycon]

I might be getting ahead of myself, at least Haley's gonna know Durkula's in the deep end of the alignment pool pretty soon.

[goodpeople25]

...I feel like you people just don't like Celia. Celia did nothing wrong. In fact, she probably could be a pacifist if her boyfriend wasn't an adventurer. Anyone with the an understanding of logic and cause-and-effect would tell you: blaming Celia is ultimately a fallacy: This is Haley's fault through and through.
Celia would know. She's an ATTORNEY. Saying that she did it wouldn't hold up in a court.
Edit: Of course, the fact that she's an attorney is irrelevant for the matter at hand. Just thought it was for some reason.
If you want me to argue a bit more, by all means.
Uh I 'm not sure which comment your referring too but i'll reply anyway
yes i dont agree she did it or it's her fault. but she did have a great effect on what lead up to this point.
Of course blaming her for that is ultimately a fallacy but then can you explain how it's haley's fault that bozzok decided a flesh golem instead of a rez would be great. How do you know bozzock wouldn't kill crystal himself to get an edge on haley who managed to escape crystal's attempts to kill her if she decided not to teleport out.

Heres what i say this situation is Bozzok'sfault.

[Shining Wrath]

Askthepizzaguy won the thread on page 4. That was fast.

Crystal completely deserved to get murdered, even if I am not happy about Haley doing the deed. What this golem-life suffering of Crystal shows is the true nature of the poor company she chose to keep: Bozzok. Crystal deserves this fate because it is Bozzok's fault, and Crystal spend many good years helping Bozzok prosper.

Did she really not notice the quality of humanoid that was Bozzok? Or did she just not care because she never thought it would come back to bite her personally?

Too bad, Crystal. You had it coming.

As a NG sort of guy, I can feel sympathy even for those I believe deserve destruction. I don't want to see anyone tortured, even evildoers. If Roy showed up right now and lopped Crystal's head off I'd cheer; and in fact, I'd be glad both that the evil was destroyed AND that the evil no longer suffered.

I'll agree on one point: Bozzok is worse than Crystal. Those who serve the BBEG in the end are less evil than the BBEG himself. On Fagin's head be Billy Sikes' crimes, etc.

[Keltest]

I might be getting ahead of myself, at least Haley's gonna know Durkula's in the deep end of the alignment pool pretty soon.

How do you figure? I mean, they already know that he is evil (he has flat out admitted as much), its just that he isn't Durkon on Darkness that they don't know. Haley wouldn't be going to the LG afterlife to see that his soul isn't there, and I highly doubt that Thor would be allowed to flat out tell her whats going on just because she is dead.

[ahdok]

To the Giant, I just want to say that the changes in art style are really showing through in pure unadulterated awesomeness in these scenes. Somehow, you've managed to add huge amounts of detail without losing simplicity... if Scientists could only harness this power, we could beat entropy.


Also, I think this answers the question raised in the last thread about whether Crystal was hasted and/or charged up by the lightning or not.

let's not start all that again :D


Is the comic title ("Rage Against The Lightning Of The Dead") a reference to something? I don't get it.

It's a twist on a poem verse from Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night. Rage against the dying of the light.


Not only that, but I think it's also be a mashup of "Rage against the Machine" (which is what Crystal is doing) and the many horror films and games with the title "x of the dead". I can't pin a reference on the word "Lightning" simply because it's just one word, that's used in many things... Still, that different people can draw on different experiences to find a reference just shows that the Giant is so much better at strip titles than I am.

Props to Kenage for critting a knowledge (poetry) check.


Elan being all mopey for X strips would be a drag though.

I think if the Giant did do Haley in the afterlife, we'd see Durkon resurrect her in only a few strips, and only one maximum would really focus on the party. The Giant tends not to re-tread old ground much in this story.


"Is Rich going to off Haley?"

When writers focus on one of their characters specifically, people don't normally assume that they're going off that character. Piling on the damage is just our way of showing love.


How would a resurrection potion even work? You generally have to drink those.

It's a suppository.

[Snails]

Not really intending to disagree with those who choose to sympathize with Crystal, even I do not.

(But I am not generally cold-blooded. I very much felt sorry for Nale, even if a good clean murdering is better than he deserved.)

This sequence is not really going to progress our insight into Crystal or Haley or Celia. It shows Bozzok in his true colors, though.

[One Skunk Todd]

Let's see now, how did it go again? Oh yes:

"It is likely that your sword will sometimes glow with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead."

Yeah, yeah I think it's time for some of that.

[dancrilis]

I don't really think it is Bozzok's fault - he was happy to let Haley stay out of Greysky, but she didn't stay away.

Now you can blame Celia for her being there - but as Haley didn't explain the situation and she obviously is a bit niave and needs things explained to her she gets a bit of a pass.
Ultimately it is Haley's fault, she could have saved Celia, Belkar and possibly even Roy without attracting the attention of Bozzok if she had merely adopted a disguise when she choose to steal from Grubwiggler (and frankly she could have avoided stealing from him at all really if she had just paid for his preformed services like he wanted - 20,000gp isn't really that much).

So you see it is all Haley's own fault for not having the presence of mind to disguise herself and being too greedy to pay for a perfectly functional Bone Golem (which likely would have been fairly useful to her anyway).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Let's see now, how did it go again? Oh yes:

"It is likely that your sword will sometimes glow with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead."

Yeah, yeah I think it's time for some of that.

Unfortunately, Crystal is a construct, not undead.

[theasl]

Did she really not notice the quality of humanoid that was Bozzok? Or did she just not care because she never thought it would come back to bite her personally?

Not sure she would be smart enough to notice...

[Spanish_Paladin]

I am pretty sure that Roy can overcome a Damage reduction 5 with his greatsword +5.

[One Skunk Todd]

Unfortunately, Crystal is a construct, not undead.

I wasn't sure, other posts in the thread seemed to imply that she was.

[Rogar Demonblud]

How do you figure? I mean, they already know that he is evil (he has flat out admitted as much), its just that he isn't Durkon on Darkness that they don't know.

Because casting the raise dead spell would tell her the following data:

Caster Name: Durkon Thundershield
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Patron Deity: Hel of the Northern Pantheon

In fact, that goes for anyone in the Order who ends up needing a rez.

[Keltest]

Because casting the raise dead spell would tell her the following data:

Caster Name: Durkon Thundershield
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Patron Deity: Hel of the Northern Pantheon

In fact, that goes for anyone in the Order who ends up needing a rez.

Ahhhh, I see. Though im not sure if it identifies the patron Deity in the stickverse, as otherwise the Draketooth clan would know that Durkon is not one of Soon's paladins.

[goodpeople25]

I don't really think it is Bozzok's fault - he was happy to let Haley stay out of Greysky, but she didn't stay away.

Now you can blame Celia for her being there - but as Haley didn't explain the situation and she obviously is a bit niave and needs things explained to her she gets a bit of a pass.
Ultimately it is Haley's fault, she could have saved Celia, Belkar and possibly even Roy without attracting the attention of Bozzok if she had merely adopted a disguise when she choose to steal from Grubwiggler (and frankly she could have avoided stealing from him at all really if she had just paid for his preformed services like he wanted - 20,000gp isn't really that much).

So you see it is all Haley's own fault for not having the presence of mind to disguise herself and being too greedy to pay for a perfectly functional Bone Golem (which likely would have been fairly useful to her anyway).
What?.. Please please tell me this is sarcasm
If not, then what your saying is it's Haley's fault for Bozzok finding her and then chasing her to tinker-town and making crystal a golem
But less of Celia's fault for leading to that situation.
And not Bozzok's fault for deciding to attack haley Not bozzoks's fault for ordering crystal to kill haley during the truce, not bozzoks fault for deciding to make crystal into golem, and not bozzoks fault for chasing them to tinkertown for revenge.
Please be sarcasm.

[dancrilis]

What?.. Please please tell me this is sarcasm
Everything I post should be taken half seriously.



If not, then what your saying is it's Haley's fault for Bozzok finding her and then chasing her to tinker-town and making crystal a golem
Basic precautions would have prevented Haley from attracting Bozzok's attention - no attention, no problem.

Unless evidence appears otherwise I think we can assume that Bozzok is evil - evil people doing evil things is expected it it in there nature, as such Bozzok is not at 'fault' for acting as you would expect him to act - and Haley likely has enough experience to know how he might act. Separately Haley is an experienced thief and con-artist she knows (or should know) that attracting notice is a bad idea, particularly when in a town she doesn't want to attract notice in.



But less of Celia's fault for leading to that situation.
Celia was given no knowledge (knowledge that could have been imparted without exposing Haley's secrets) that would have prevented her from trying to get Roy raised as quickly as possible. Haley could have said 'No that is a town of demon cultists and they will kill and eat us if we go in - and if we are very lucky they will do it in that order. Cliffport is our best option of getting Roy back and surviving' and lying is perfectly in character for her.



And not Bozzok's fault for deciding to attack haley Not bozzoks's fault for ordering crystal to kill haley during the truce, not bozzoks fault for deciding to make crystal into golem, and not bozzoks fault for chasing them to tinkertown for revenge.
Again Haley broke the unspoken truce by returning, and not keeping a low profile see panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).
Bozzok needed to react but to maintain his reputation and he likely needs to deal with Haley to restore it - lets not forget that at least some of his competition consists of a blue dragon with minions - weakness even perceived weakness cannot be tolerated.
And Haley knew all this when she entered Greysky and made her presence known.



Please be sarcasm.
Nothing I say should be taken more than half seriously.

[Emperordaniel]

Ahhhh, I see. Though im not sure if it identifies the patron Deity in the stickverse, as otherwise the Draketooth clan would know that Durkon is not one of Soon's paladins.

They could still assume that as a Lawful Good guy, Durkon would be in cahoots with the Sapphire Guard regardless of the pantheon he followed (which, to be fair, he was).

[goodpeople25]

Everything I post should be taken half seriously.


Basic precautions would have prevented Haley from attracting Bozzok's attention - no attention, no problem.

Unless evidence appears otherwise I think we can assume that Bozzok is evil - evil people doing evil things is expected it it in there nature, as such Bozzok is not at 'fault' for acting as you would expect him to act - and Haley likely has enough experience to know how he might act. Separately Haley is an experienced thief and con-artist she knows (or should know) that attracting notice is a bad idea, particularly when in a town she doesn't want to attract notice in.


Celia was given no knowledge (knowledge that could have been imparted without exposing Haley's secrets) that would have prevented her from trying to get Roy raised as quickly as possible. Haley could have said 'No that is a town of demon cultists and they will kill and eat us if we go in - and if we are very lucky they will do it in that order. Cliffport is our best option of getting Roy back and surviving' and lying is perfectly in character for her.


Again Haley broke the unspoken truce by returning, and not keeping a low profile see panel 10 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html).
Bozzok needed to react but to maintain his reputation and he likely needs to deal with Haley to restore it - lets not forget that at least some of his competition consists of a blue dragon with minions - weakness even perceived weakness cannot be tolerated.
And Haley knew all this when she entered Greysky and made her presence known.



Nothing I say should be taken more than half seriously.
Ok got the half serious part so let's have fun with this.
Yes haley probably knew she would be seen but she probably didn't have much time prepare and anyway being seen by grubby isn't that bad as she most likely was planning on grabbing the good the bad and the corpse, and then bailing greysky even after Celia loses the corpse she sees no problem leaving town so the main bad decision haley made that led to fighting the thieves guild was trusting blind pete and staying in greysky.
On haley not telling Celia yah she could have lied but she just came off a bit of bonding with Celia so she probably didn't want to lie to her or go too much into what Greysky is like as it's personal to her. Also she's tired and want's to sleep.
On bozzok yes he would take a threat to his rep seriously but it was only members of his guild that knew there was a deal and she left the guild and we don't know how many people knew she didn't pay. They could still say she was a member and left with the rest of her party to kill (and rob$)them too.
And bozzok leaves the city possibly causing a power Vacuum or being seen as a weakness. So yeah it doesn't seem to be his rep but his pride talking. And haley might think his rep and collecting his power base is more important than his pride

So main points
Haley was seen cause she was planing on leaving right after
Yes she could have lied to Celia but thats understandable and it was Celia's decision to enter not haley's
And from a attack on your rep that people might not even know about leaving your turf for revenge is not an optimal decision.
Sorry for wall of text and for my sarcasm blindness (well, written anyway i can manage spoken or from somebody i know)

[theasl]

Because casting the raise dead spell would tell her the following data:

Caster Name: Durkon Thundershield
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Patron Deity: Hel of the Northern Pantheon

In fact, that goes for anyone in the Order who ends up needing a rez.

Doesn't it only tell you alignment? I don't remember which strip it was, but it was when they were trying to rez one of the Draketooths - it said something to the effect of "it tells the target the alignment, and Durkon's is the same as a paladin" - whereas the deity (Thor vs 12 animal things) and name (obviously) would be very noticeably different. Roy's rez didn't even show any of this (though I can't remember if he was watching it or not). And the Order already knows not-Durkon is evil, so that wouldn't be much of a revelation.

[Xihirli]

:smallfurious: If anything, I think Elan will finally catch up and use his Cure Moderate Wounds wand. He should have seen where they went, and we just saw Bandana take a hit worse than Elan did and she's still fighting. He should be up and running and following the trail of destruction (if they're not in his view, they did go around a corner) as this comic is going on.
Remember, Elan would have to stay unconscious for:
a) The initial chase, which lasted at least long enough for Bozzok's long monologues
b) Adamantine arrows to drop into a body of water
c) Two Adamantine weapons to be purchased AFTER a whole lot more running.
d) The response time for the Department of Gnomeland Security
e) The destruction of that department.
He should be almost there.
Also, Roy, Belkar, V, Blackwing (who grants Alertness), Durkula, and the ENTIRE crew of the Mechane would have to not notice this massive battle which is going on all over the gnome homeland. And none of them were indoors the last time we saw them, so they should all be in a location that they could at least hear the destruction.
If Rich needs to call in the Cavalry, they're just next door. No one is going to die. Except for Crystal, maybe a few more gnomes, and possibly Bozzok and Frankenweirdo. :smallfurious:

[goodpeople25]

Doesn't it only tell you alignment? I don't remember which strip it was, but it was when they were trying to rez one of the Draketooths - it said something to the effect of "it tells the target the alignment, and Durkon's is the same as a paladin" - whereas the deity (Thor vs 12 animal things) and name (obviously) would be very noticeably different. Roy's rez didn't even show any of this (though I can't remember if he was watching it or not). And the Order already knows not-Durkon is evil, so that wouldn't be much of a revelation.

In comic they only mention alignment
In the rules they say casters name, alignment, and deity (if applicable)
So it's a toss up but imo since it show alignment the name thing is most likely there too and as you said Durkon thundershield doesn't sound like an azureite.

[Gnoman]

Doesn't it only tell you alignment? I don't remember which strip it was, but it was when they were trying to rez one of the Draketooths - it said something to the effect of "it tells the target the alignment, and Durkon's is the same as a paladin" - whereas the deity (Thor vs 12 animal things) and name (obviously) would be very noticeably different. Roy's rez didn't even show any of this (though I can't remember if he was watching it or not). And the Order already knows not-Durkon is evil, so that wouldn't be much of a revelation.

If Soon had done as Girard expected him to, and massacred his way through the Draketooth clan to "secure" the Gate, and then found himself needing to resurrect someone for interrogation, hiring a foreign cleric is a logical dodge, and a Paladin would only trust a Lawful Good cleric to do his "dirty work". Since Girard showed open contempt for the concepts of Gods, Law, and very possibly Good, he'd probably consider any Lawful Good follower of a God (as opposed to a cleric of a 'cause') to be an enemy, and would instill that attitude into his personality cult family.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given how paranoid the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) were, they probably just decided the Sapphire Guard hired Durkon as a way to con them.

Like Haley said, they really didn't understand paladins. Of course, given the political shenanigans of the Western Continent, they likely don't grasp that people actually follow the tenets of Good.

[Xihirli]

Given how paranoid the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) were, they probably just decided the Sapphire Guard hired Durkon as a way to con them.

Like Haley said, they really didn't understand paladins. Of course, given the political shenanigans of the Western Continent, they likely don't grasp that people actually follow the tenets of Good.

:smallfurious: ProudFEET! :smallfurious:

[Tom Lehmann]

Remember, Elan would have to stay unconscious for: [lots of stuff]
If Elan took enough non-lethal damage to exceed his remaining hit points and render him unconscious, then -- without some healing -- he recovers non-lethal damage at a rate of 1 per hour. That's a *long* time at combat scale.

I don't know how many combat rounds have passed; a quick count got me to 24, which at 3.5 D&D's 6 seconds a round = 2 minutes and 24 seconds. If we assume as many rounds of running off-panel have been elided, we're roughly at the 5 minute mark now. Excellent Swat Team response IRL is to get to a crisis in 5 minutes, which fits with this. So Elan may still be 55 minutes away from acting (assuming no outside aid and at -1 hp including non-lethal damage).

Of course, this assumes D&D rules are operating. At "speed of plot", who knows?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

So is the title a portmanteau of Rage Against the Machine, Ride the Lightning, and Tao of the Dead?

[Snails]

Because casting the raise dead spell would tell her the following data:

Caster Name: Durkon Thundershield
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Patron Deity: Hel of the Northern Pantheon

In fact, that goes for anyone in the Order who ends up needing a rez.

Hard to say if the Caster Name would actually be Durkon Thundershield or something else.

[Snails]

Given how paranoid the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) were, they probably just decided the Sapphire Guard hired Durkon as a way to con them.

Like Haley said, they really didn't understand paladins. Of course, given the political shenanigans of the Western Continent, they likely don't grasp that people actually follow the tenets of Good.

Probably true. They would assume that any LG cleric would be very easily conned by Soon, because LG's are too naive to guess how depraved Soon had become (in their minds only, of course).

[ahdok]

I think in this universe, you're getting alignment only when someone tries to resurrect you, otherwise the Draketooths would potentially notice a Dwarven name rather than a Paladin name, and not refuse... A dwarf travelling all the way to Soon's gate, then turning around and going all the way to Girad's gate seems a bit of a stretch to people without any information about what's going on.

Having said that, The Order already know that Durkon is "evil" - they're aware that vampirism gives a mechanical change to that, so revealing that about 'Durkon' won't actually tell them anything...

[Breccia]

Technically, this should all be in caps...but that'd get old, fast.

I punched a gnome today, to see if I could kill.
I focus on the death, and I always will.
The needle sewed me up, by that old Frankenstein,
And Bozzok says "Crystal, go and kill Starshine."

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will beat you down!
All I feel is hurt!

I wear this crown of sparks around my torn-out hair.
I'm filled with broken thoughts, I can....
...
...nice boots.
Beneath this skin of grey, there is but one thing I feel.
My life force may be fake, but my hate for you is real.

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will BEAT YOU DOWN!
ALL I FEEL IS HURT!

And now I start again, back from death's embrace,
To use your severed head...
...to hit you in the face.

[Tom Lehmann]

I punched a gnome today, to see if I could kill.
I focus on the death, and I always will.
The needle sewed me up, by that old Frankenstein,
And Bozzok says "Crystal, go and kill Starshine."

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will beat you down!
All I feel is hurt!

I wear this crown of sparks around my torn-out hair.
I'm filled with broken thoughts, I can....
...
...nice boots.
Beneath this skin of grey, there is but one thing I feel.
My life force may be fake, but my hate for you is real.

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will BEAT YOU DOWN!
ALL I FEEL IS HURT!

And now I start again, back from death's embrace,
To use your severed head...
...to hit you in the face.

Nice job! It's creative contributions like this that make me wish these forums have "like" buttons and a tip mechanism.

[Crusher]

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old enemies should burn and recur at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though golem women at their end know dark is right,
Because those gnomes forked a lot of lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good rogues, the last archers by, crying how bright
Their frail HP might have danced in lime green boots,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild rogues who were caught while wearing bandanas in flight,
And learn, too late, not to save the NPCs,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave half orcs, probably near death, who see with tunnelled sight
Blind eyes could blaze for gold and be metrosexual,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my golemcrafter, there on the sad height,
Don't stick around to watch, just run, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.

[Crusher]

Technically, this should all be in caps...but that'd get old, fast.

I punched a gnome today, to see if I could kill.
I focus on the death, and I always will.
The needle sewed me up, by that old Frankenstein,
And Bozzok says "Crystal, go and kill Starshine."

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will beat you down!
All I feel is hurt!

I wear this crown of sparks around my torn-out hair.
I'm filled with broken thoughts, I can....
...
...nice boots.
Beneath this skin of grey, there is but one thing I feel.
My life force may be fake, but my hate for you is real.

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will BEAT YOU DOWN!
ALL I FEEL IS HURT!

And now I start again, back from death's embrace,
To use your severed head...
...to hit you in the face.

I stayed with the suggested material, but yours is both better and more creative.

[Crusher]

Thanks Giant!

So is the title a portmanteau of Rage Against the Machine, Ride the Lightning, and Tao of the Dead?

I think its a play on Dylan Thomas's "Do not go gentle into that good night".

[theMycon]

And the Order already knows not-Durkon is evil, so that wouldn't be much of a revelation.
I'm not so sure of that. The smart ones have figured it out, but AFAIK, all he's told them is that he's "no more evil than Belkar."

[theasl]

I'm not so sure of that. The smart ones have figured it out, but AFAIK, all he's told them is that he's "no more evil than Belkar."

I'm pretty sure even Elan knows that Belkar is evil.

:elan:: WHAT?

...never mind.

[veti]

Thanks Giant!

So is the title a portmanteau of Rage Against the Machine, Ride the Lightning, and Tao of the Dead?

As several people have already noted - no, it isn't (http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night).

I'm amazed at how obscure this reference seems to be - isn't this a famous poem any more?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

As several people have already noted - no, it isn't (http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night).

I'm amazed at how obscure this reference seems to be - isn't this a famous poem any more?
I hope some people are just assuming the Giant's being more subtle than he actually is on this occasion - the line from that poem was my first thought on seeing the title.

Although sadly, not the whole poem, as I'm off to read it for the first time ever once I've hit submit :smallredface: - thanks for the link.

[kivzirrum]

As several people have already noted - no, it isn't (http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night).

I'm amazed at how obscure this reference seems to be - isn't this a famous poem any more?

Maybe they just see "Rage Against the" in the first line of the title and mentally fill in "Machine"? I don't know!

Also I'm surprised at how much loathing there still is for Celia around here. Wow.

[Shining Wrath]

Technically, this should all be in caps...but that'd get old, fast.

I punched a gnome today, to see if I could kill.
I focus on the death, and I always will.
The needle sewed me up, by that old Frankenstein,
And Bozzok says "Crystal, go and kill Starshine."

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will beat you down!
All I feel is hurt!

I wear this crown of sparks around my torn-out hair.
I'm filled with broken thoughts, I can....
...
...nice boots.
Beneath this skin of grey, there is but one thing I feel.
My life force may be fake, but my hate for you is real.

See what I've become, my sarcastic "friend"?
Everyone you spare comes back in the end.
I will kill you all!
Pound you into dirt!
I will BEAT YOU DOWN!
ALL I FEEL IS HURT!

And now I start again, back from death's embrace,
To use your severed head...
...to hit you in the face.

Johnny Cash does not approve of you turning June into a golem. And even dead, Johnny can probably whup you. Just sayin'. :smallbiggrin:

[GM_3826]

I didn't know what that poem was until very recently, and the line from the poem didn't actually occur to me....

I think the poem is just a sort of primarily British poem. We Americans have things you don't know of, and you British folk have things we're not aware of.

...Of course, Rich is American...

[ahdok]

Celia is one of my favourite characters - she does an amazing job of highlighting just how ridiculous the behaviour of adventurers is to the 99% of the world population who don't go around murdering things for money, and she's super smart as well as being pretty courageous - there aren't many people in the world who would risk their life against almost certain death for a slim chance of rescuing someone who'd spent months insulting them... narrativistically, she provides a wonderful contrast to the viewpoint of the typical adventuring party, whilst not being a maniacal villain who opposes them.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I didn't know what that poem was until very recently, and the line from the poem didn't actually occur to me....

I think the poem is just a sort of primarily British poem. We Americans have things you don't know of, and you British folk have things we're not aware of.

Well, it's referenced in Independence Day, so it's probably not that unknown over your side of the pond.



...Of course, Rich is American...
And, given some of his previous references, very well read. :smallbiggrin:

[GM_3826]

Well, it's referenced in Independence Day, so it's probably not that unknown over your side of the pond.


And, given some of his previous references, very well read. :smallbiggrin:

Relatively speaking, it's unknown. What I'm saying is, it's very possible that someone, out of a population of millions, doesn't know it. Doesn't mean that out of a population of millions there aren't people who do.

[xkcd_386]

Hmmm.

Rage Against the [Machine] - that's what Crystal is literally doing. A rock band name.

Lightning of the Dead - that's how Crystal attacks Haley, also quite literally. Romero-style title.


Also, that capacitor coil looks beautiful.
Capacitors don't have coils. That's an inductor.

[kivzirrum]

I didn't know what that poem was until very recently, and the line from the poem didn't actually occur to me....

I think the poem is just a sort of primarily British poem. We Americans have things you don't know of, and you British folk have things we're not aware of.

...Of course, Rich is American...

Actually the poem is very popular here in America and shows up all over the place.

Which is not to say that there's anything wrong with being unfamiliar with it! Not in the least. But it is common, and referenced often in pop culture (Interstellar beat it to death, quoting the same line over and over). I remember in high school, my 11th grade English teacher had the line referenced in this comic pasted on the wall in huge letters.

[happycrow]

Too bad, Crystal. You had it coming.

When I spank my kid, I'm sympathetic to my kid's butt-pain. Doesn't mean I approved of all the impromptu crayon wall-art. One can be sympathetic to a character receiving her just desserts, even if one acknowledges their culpability at every step of the way. I was sympathetic to the mice I've had to trap, the bugs I've had to stomp, and the rabid possum whose head I bashed in, too. Cops I know who've had to drop the hammer on people have wanted them to live, too.

Doesn't mean that the hard things don't happen -- it just means that sympathy and "unwilling to act/judge" aren't necessarily synonymous.

[happycrow]

As a NG sort of guy, I can feel sympathy even for those I believe deserve destruction. I don't want to see anyone tortured, even evildoers. If Roy showed up right now and lopped Crystal's head off I'd cheer; and in fact, I'd be glad both that the evil was destroyed AND that the evil no longer suffered.

I'll agree on one point: Bozzok is worse than Crystal. Those who serve the BBEG in the end are less evil than the BBEG himself. On Fagin's head be Billy Sikes' crimes, etc.

Ninja'd.
Bozzok is much worse than Crystal. Crystal is murderous and famously stupid, and in the environment where she lived, probably never had much of a chance to be anything other than a rabid dog, in an environment which rewarded all her worst tendencies. Sure, she's completely culpable. Bozzok, otoh, is the planner.

[Shining Wrath]

Ninja'd.
Bozzok is much worse than Crystal. Crystal is murderous and famously stupid, and in the environment where she lived, probably never had much of a chance to be anything other than a rabid dog, in an environment which rewarded all her worst tendencies. Sure, she's completely culpable. Bozzok, otoh, is the planner.

Who is worse - the rabid dog, or the guy who keeps it in a cage and releases it when he needs it?

[Emperordaniel]

Who is worse - the rabid dog, or the guy who keeps it in a cage and releases it when he needs it?

"When a dog goes bad, the fault lies in his master."

[Torzini]

"When a dog goes bad, the fault lies in his master."

...That's true for a dog, sure, but Crystal is an intelligent (well, she's dumb as a rock -- but you know what I mean :smalltongue:) being who is capable of making her own decisions. Her environment growing up shaped her, certainly. But she made her moral choices out of her own free will, far more than say, a dog ever could.

Bozzok is the mastermind, but Crystal is certainly not blameless.

[Angelalex242]

Within limits. Depends on how early in life Bozzok got to her.

It's possible for adults to warp the perceptions of children so thoroughly that you really can't hold the children accountable anymore.

However, that's a rare, extreme case, and it's more likely then not that Crystal simply 'fell in with the wrong crowd', and is thus perfectly to blame.

[ManuelSacha]

Wow.
Well, that suxx. :smalleek:

[Rogar Demonblud]

As several people have already noted - no, it isn't (http://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night).

I'm amazed at how obscure this reference seems to be - isn't this a famous poem any more?

There pretty much are no famous poems any more. I blame the standardized high school curriculum. One of my professors could recite Horatius at the Bridge from memory. Most people nowadays don't even know who Macaulay was.

[Serpine]

Not really seeing how - she is a special case, the only intelligent golem we've seen in the entire comic. If the others feel pain, they certainly don't show it.

In several editions of D&D certain golem types (flesh & clay in particular) have had a percentage change of going berserk. Maybe this has been the reason that happens all along?

I've used that notion as subtext in a couple of campaigns I've run and it really creeps people out when dealing with even fully controlled golems. :)

[Zonkerbl]

I hope the gnomes that were saved in the previous panels come to her rescue now.

Then it's not "man comes to woman's rescue" but "good deed yields unexpected dividends."

[Zonkerbl]

Now I've got Metallica's "Master of Puppets" in my head for some reason.

[Zonkerbl]

There pretty much are no famous poems any more. I blame the standardized high school curriculum. One of my professors could recite Horatius at the Bridge from memory. Most people nowadays don't even know who Macaulay was.

But it was in a recent sports commercial!

[Crusher]

Well, it's referenced in Independence Day, so it's probably not that unknown over your side of the pond.


And, given some of his previous references, very well read. :smallbiggrin:

Michael Caine read it dramatically in most of the commercials for Interstellar which was a pretty big movie all of 6 months ago.

[Bulldog Psion]

Maybe they just see "Rage Against the" in the first line of the title and mentally fill in "Machine"? I don't know!

Yes, I've actually memorized part of the "rage, rage against the dying of the light" poem, and my first thought was "Rage Against the Machine." Probably because it's a really awkward stretch to turn "rage against the dying of the light" into "rage against the lightning of the dead." It's so clumsy I still find it difficult to believe that the Giant meant that, and I keep trying to figure out alternatives.


Also I'm surprised at how much loathing there still is for Celia around here. Wow.

Yeah, well, I loathe the character also. Totally, actually. But still, I don't blame her for this situation in the slightest; I just loathe her because she happens to be loathsome. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I'd prefer if Haley and Bandana settled this themselves. We don't need anyone being a "damsel in the distress" who needs the guys to rescue them at this stage. I mean, that's how the whole Bozzok situation went originally; the ladies couldn't handle the thieves' guild until Mr. Masculine Belkar came to the rescue. :smallyuk:

Failing that, I hope Haley is killed. She's my favorite character, but it would be the kind of plot twist that would really have interesting consequences at this stage, and since death isn't permanent, she'd still be back in time for the showdown anyway. :smallwink:

[kivzirrum]

Yes, I've actually memorized part of the "rage, rage against the dying of the light" poem, and my first thought was "Rage Against the Machine." Probably because it's a really awkward stretch to turn "rage against the dying of the light" into "rage against the lightning of the dead." It's so clumsy I still find it difficult to believe that the Giant meant that, and I keep trying to figure out alternatives.


Hmm, I don't personally find it clumsy, exactly. Maybe there's a slightly forced quality to it, but I think that's more for the humor of the wordplay, personally ^^



Anyway, I'd prefer if Haley and Bandana settled this themselves. We don't need anyone being a "damsel in the distress" who needs the guys to rescue them at this stage. I mean, that's how the whole Bozzok situation went originally; the ladies couldn't handle the thieves' guild until Mr. Masculine Belkar came to the rescue. :smallyuk:

With this, I agree! I don't have a problem with the old Thieves Guild scene--that was an awesome way to say, "Belkar's back!" But here, it would be cool to see these badass ladies handle it themselves.


Failing that, I hope Haley is killed. She's my favorite character, but it would be the kind of plot twist that would really have interesting consequences at this stage, and since death isn't permanent, she'd still be back in time for the showdown anyway. :smallwink:

With this, I can not agree. :smalleek: Even if it could have potentially interesting plot ramifications. It would break my heart, even knowing it's impermanent!

[D.One]

Maybe they just see "Rage Against the" in the first line of the title and mentally fill in "Machine"? I don't know!

Well, she did rage against a machine, didn't she?

[Icewraith]

Hmm, I don't personally find it clumsy, exactly. Maybe there's a slightly forced quality to it, but I think that's more for the humor of the wordplay, personally ^^




With this, I agree! I don't have a problem with the old Thieves Guild scene--that was an awesome way to say, "Belkar's back!" But here, it would be cool to see these badass ladies handle it themselves.



With this, I can not agree. :smalleek: Even if it could have potentially interesting plot ramifications. It would break my heart, even knowing it's impermanent!

"Rage, Rage Against the Lightning of the Dead" would be a slightly more obvious title reference, assuming that is indeed the reference.

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, thinking about it more, I guess it makes sense. It's flipping the positions of "light" and "dying" --

Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

becomes

Rage, rage against the light of the dying.

becomes

Rage, rage against the lightning of the dead.


Okay, I reverse my earlier position. It is clever, just not a "hits you the first second" clever. More like it has to age a bit in the casks of the mind before it acquires its full flavor. :smallwink:

[Trillium]

Unexpected plot twist - Haley is secretly Belkar and will indeed die now!

[Shining Wrath]

There pretty much are no famous poems any more. I blame the standardized high school curriculum. One of my professors could recite Horatius at the Bridge from memory. Most people nowadays don't even know who Macaulay was.


Then out spake brave Horatius,
The Captain of the Gate:
"To every man upon this earth
Death cometh soon or late.
And how can man die better
Than facing fearful odds,
For the ashes of his fathers,
And the temples of his Gods."

If Horatius was not a Paladin, he should have been.

[brian 333]

At first I had the thought that I encountered a new insight into the existence of golems. But then I came here and read the many expressions of sympathy for Crystal and I began to think...

Wasn't Crystal in pain all the time before she was killed? What fueled her murderous nature? Wasn't the only time she felt anything but self-loathing and pain when she was inflicting pain on others?

Perhaps the pain she expresses in this strip has nothing at all to do with being a golem, and everything to do with being Crystal.

(My blossom of sympathy for Crystal has quickly wilted.)

[GM_3826]

At first I had the thought that I encountered a new insight into the existence of golems. But then I came here and read the many expressions of sympathy for Crystal and I began to think...

Wasn't Crystal in pain all the time before she was killed? What fueled her murderous nature? Wasn't the only time she felt anything but self-loathing and pain when she was inflicting pain on others?

Perhaps the pain she expresses in this strip has nothing at all to do with being a golem, and everything to do with being Crystal.

(My blossom of sympathy for Crystal has quickly wilted.)

...What?
And since apparently that's not sufficient, what?

[dancrilis]

Yes haley probably knew she would be seen but she probably didn't have much time prepare and anyway being seen by grubby isn't that bad as she most likely was planning on grabbing the good the bad and the corpse, and then bailing greysky even after Celia loses the corpse she sees no problem leaving town so the main bad decision haley made that led to fighting the thieves guild was trusting blind pete and staying in greysky.
I don't think so - had she fled immediately (with or without Roy) Bozzok would still have been alerted to her presence and thereby would have felt the need to deal with her.
Wearing a scarf and hat? That could have solved her problem.


On haley not telling Celia yah she could have lied but she just came off a bit of bonding with Celia so she probably didn't want to lie to her or go too much into what Greysky is like as it's personal to her. Also she's tired and want's to sleep.
Fair enough but 'their lies death' would have been enough no need to lie or go into detail, but enough information that Celia knows it is not just a random sticking to a plan when a better alternative existed. After all Celia had to drag her away from Azure City as she was setting up shop - from Celia's point of view she might just have been overly focused on the process rather than the result.


On bozzok yes he would take a threat to his rep seriously but it was only members of his guild that knew there was a deal and she left the guild and we don't know how many people knew she didn't pay. They could still say she was a member and left with the rest of her party to kill (and rob$)them too.
There is pride also not a great trait but not something he is alone with - Crystal's death of nothing else would have to be explained, Haley went out as an enemy rather than an acquaintance as the deal would have allowed. Bozzok and Crystal were targeting her in the Book but not directly.


And bozzok leaves the city possibly causing a power Vacuum or being seen as a weakness. So yeah it doesn't seem to be his rep but his pride talking. And haley might think his rep and collecting his power base is more important than his pride
I suspect that may not have actually been his choice - with the thieves guild in tatters and him having led them there it is possible that Hank took over (it is also possible that Hank is merely sitting in for him and that this shows his confidence - he can leave his cohort in charge).



(My blossom of sympathy for Crystal has quickly wilted.)

Wouldn't that be more reason to have sympathy?

[SoC175]

...I feel like you people just don't like Celia. Celia did nothing wrongExcept surrendering when her side had just won? Fine, she was not aware of the state of the battle, but that doesn't change the fact that she started to negotiate a contract on behalf of Haley & Belkar while have no mandate whatsoever?

[Zaclock]

I feel this is the (temporary) end for Haley.

I remember some time ago, when we were around the end of the previous book, The Giant answered a question, on Twitter I guess, about having more important female characters in the next parts of the story, and hinting that one was already there (Bandana had had her first comics by then).

Haley dying would make Bandana the temporary sixth lead to the OoTS, which would also explain why she has had so much exposure so far. At the same time, we would keep scenes with Haley from the afterlife, settling a more egalitarian ratio between male/female "on-screen time". It fits with the author's recent motivations.

I kind of like the story ramifications that could follow from this. Haley afterlife, Elan, Elan and Haley's dad, no more diamond dust after resurrecting Haley, making the guild a full part of this book and not only preliminary hors-d'oeuvres...

[Keltest]

Except surrendering when her side had just won? Fine, she was not aware of the state of the battle, but that doesn't change the fact that she started to negotiate a contract on behalf of Haley & Belkar while have no mandate whatsoever?

Except for the part where she promised something she had no right to (Haley's fortune) her deal ended working out in the Order's favor. It got them Roy's body back and got Haley a pre-emptive strike against Bozzok and Crystal, who had no intentions to honor the deal themselves anyway.

[RafterManFMJ]

I post but infrequently.

It amuses me all those that run their mouth on poor, poor, Crystal and all her pain.

She brought pain and death to dozens, hundreds for simple coin and the approbation of her evil boss.

She ripped ole Blind Pete's eyes out - twice.

She deserves all she gets, and more. I'm embarrassed by you weak sisters that cut her any slack.

[Spanish_Paladin]

I post but infrequently.

It amuses me all those that run their mouth on poor, poor, Crystal and all her pain.

She brought pain and death to dozens, hundreds for simple coin and the approbation of her evil boss.

She ripped ole Blind Pete's eyes out - twice.

She deserves all she gets, and more. I'm embarrassed by you weak sisters that cut her any slack.

Yeah, Crystal is an evil person, but compassion is not a selective emotion my friend.

[Metahuman1]

Except for the part where she promised something she had no right to (Haley's fortune) her deal ended working out in the Order's favor. It got them Roy's body back and got Haley a pre-emptive strike against Bozzok and Crystal, who had no intentions to honor the deal themselves anyway.

A Pre-emptive strike they didn't need, because the fight was all but over and won, with anyone who'd come after them dead or soon to be dead.

Hell, the entire guild dies, and now Hayley got a massive treasure wind fall for the party, and afterwords she could have dealt with the wizard now that she wasn't flying solo and had the money to afford arrows to over come the golem's DR.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah, Crystal is an evil person, but compassion is not a selective emotion my friend.

Funny here people are all sympathetic for Crystals pain all of a sudden, and in the Agents of SHIELD thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?384621-Agents-of-S-H-I-E-L-D-III-Cut-off-one-thread-two-more-shall-take-its-place/page23), I was noticing the sudden outpouring of sympathy for another mess of a woman in suffering from much self-pitying pain after a murder streak.

What is it about hot-messes wallowing in pain after a good serial killing that draws this sudden sympathy? Where is it for like the tragic villains and such? :miko:

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Horatius was not a Paladin, he should have been.

He was a Roman. Not sure how well that would go with the traditional paladin oath of chastity thing.

Anyhow, I started on poetry early. I had Kipling's 'Mother of Mine' memorized by age five, and recited it frequently.

{I may have been a bit of a brat back then}

[Bulldog Psion]

I currently have somewhere between half and two thirds of Chesterton's "Lepanto" memorized. I keep it current in my memory by reciting it while driving alone.

Not sure what this has to do with OotS, though. :smallwink:

[Jasdoif]

What is it about hot-messes wallowing in pain after a good serial killing that draws this sudden sympathy? Where is it for like the tragic villains and such? :miko:I'm fairly sure the sudden-ness is from the suddenly placed contrast between the expectation that the golem is simply a Crystal-shaped construct with no capacity for actively feeling things like pain, and the statement that it's a construct-shaped Crystal with such a capacity. The abrupt transition bolsters sensitivity to feelings on the subject...whether those feelings are sympathy, renewed disregard, some combination, or something else entirely.

As for Miko, I do believe the same split between sympathy and ire happened back when 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) posted...over seven years ago. I imagine seven years from now we're not going to be hearing so much about Crystal's scenario :smalltongue:


Personally, I think a more interesting question is where the idea that "sympathy" necessarily involves "cutting slack" comes from. Maybe "empathy" instead of "sympathy" would make a clearer distinction? Ah well...whatever the terminology, the reasons to be sympathetic towards Crystal and the reasons to want Crystal stopped don't overlap, and I don't see a contradiction in acknowledging both.

[Torzini]

I'm fairly sure the sudden-ness is from the suddenly placed contrast between the expectation that the golem is simply a Crystal-shaped construct with no capacity for actively feeling things like pain, and the statement that it's a construct-shaped Crystal with such a capacity. The abrupt transition bolsters sensitivity to feelings on the subject...whether those feelings are sympathy, renewed disregard, some combination, or something else entirely.

As for Miko, I do believe the same split between sympathy and ire happened back when 464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html) posted...over seven years ago. I imagine seven years from now we're not going to be hearing so much about Crystal's scenario :smalltongue:


Personally, I think a more interesting question is where the idea that "sympathy" necessarily involves "cutting slack" comes from. Maybe "empathy" instead of "sympathy" would make a clearer distinction? Ah well...whatever the terminology, the reasons to be sympathetic towards Crystal and the reasons to want Crystal stopped don't overlap, and I don't see a contradiction in acknowledging both.


Indeed. One might feel sorry for a mass murderer who is clearly going through a lot of pain, but that usually doesn't equate to "aww, that makes all his crimes okay now I guess." It is also possible be sympathetic towards someone undergoing a well-deserved punishment, because most of us-- unlike Crystal-- aren't nutters who enjoy seeing beings in pain. I would like to hope, anyway.


Also, I would like to STRONGLY contest the notion that the reason we are feeling sorry for Crystal is because she's a "hot mess." :smalltongue: Have you seen what she looks like as a golem? Granted, she arguably wasn't all that attractive when she was alive either... but just look at her now (especially her clumps of hair). If anything, now she looks absolutely horrific. I don't think the sympathy stems from anyone being attracted to her...

[Bulldog Psion]

"For my part, I pity even his slaves." -- Gandalf Greyhame, well-known weakling and wimp, on orcs and trolls.

Misericordia: small razor-sharp dagger carried to open the veins of people dying slowly in agony, including enemies, by European knights, a well-known collection of wusses.

Kogai: scabbard-pin of the katana, used, among many other things, to pierce the ankle-vein of a suffering and dying man to give him a quicker death. Used by the samurai, yet another group known for their wussiness.

"He who fights monsters must take care lest he become a monster; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." -- Friedrich Nietsche, wimpiest, flabbiest philosopher of all time.

[Sime]

Maybe someone has already mentioned this but i think the "Especially YOU" line Crystal delivers in this strip is somehow a callback to Haley's "Especially You" in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html

[Liliet]

Did....did Crystal just turn into a sympathetic character?
at this rate, she'll join the Order... and the Good characters will be in minority!
(Good Roy, Elan, Haley; Neutral V; Evil Belkar, Durkula, and now possibly Crystal)
(even I can't tell if I'm serious with this theory)
(but I like it)


Doesn't matter. Sympathy is not zero-sum, nor should "deserving" have much influence on it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
this and forever this
I love V, doesn't mean I in any way condone ****ing genocide
I am warming up to Belkar, doens't mean I approve of his regular action patterns
I am fond of Crystal, doesn't mean I don't think she's reprehensible evil and Haley was anything less than justified in killing her


Here you go. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#bringingBacktheDead)


Quote Originally Posted by SRD: Magic Overview->Casting Spells->Bringing Back the Dead
Revivification against One's Will

A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.

okay now I have two different trains of thought in my head

1) a completely unrelated to OotS plot of a cleric who is hiding their real name&identity reviving someone & therefore revealing their secret;

2) if Haley dies, Durkula is going to face a serious conflict... If he revives her, she'll know he follows Hel. Given that he's Evil, he'll probably have no moral problem with "just don't revive her" as a solution to this, but then Order has gone to incredible length to resurrect Roy and trying to dodge reviving Haley inconspiciously would be very hard if not impossible at all...
I'm not sure if I still want this to happen but it sounds fascinating in theory at least...


and the final thought... Haley killed Crystal, but she expected her to be resurrected right away, and even if she wasn't, she'd go to Evil heaven presumably
so
Haley did not wish /this/ on Crystal
she might have very little sympathy for her murderous rival but if she has any the time is now

[Gusion]

I'm kind of hoping Haley dies. Then Crystal turns on Bozzok and kills him too. Then the rest of the Order can kill her.

Worst case scenario to me is that Roy/Durkula shows up and saves the day. Doesn't exactly meld well with Giant's new found feminism to have a damsel in distress subplot where the man needs to show up and rescue her.

[Liliet]

I'm kind of hoping Haley dies. Then Crystal turns on Bozzok and kills him too. Then the rest of the Order can kill her.

Worst case scenario to me is that Roy/Durkula shows up and saves the day. Doesn't exactly meld well with Giant's new found feminism to have a damsel in distress subplot where the man needs to show up and rescue her.

If that sort of thing happens it's probably going to be Elan... and yeah he saved Haley before already and it wouldn't really be in good taste to top off an awesome women on women fight with a male character swooping in and rescuing everyone, especially given how it'd have to play off Elan's trope-y class abilities

long story short they have to either beat her on their own, convert her to become a member of Order (my personal fave) or lose and have Haley killed (that could be interesting...)

[Bulldog Psion]

Worst case scenario to me is that Roy/Durkula shows up and saves the day. Doesn't exactly meld well with Giant's new found feminism to have a damsel in distress subplot where the man needs to show up and rescue her.

I agree 100% with this. I'm dreading seeing Roy, Durk Malackssen, Belkar, or Elan appear on the scene at this point. It would be a shame to see the work that increased what I'd term my "gender and sexuality humanism" to fall back on an obsolete gender role stereotype. It would be the first thing to deeply disappoint me in this comic for a long, long while.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

"For my part, I pity even his slaves." -- Gandalf Greyhame, well-known weakling and wimp, on orcs and trolls.

Misericordia: small razor-sharp dagger carried to open the veins of people dying slowly in agony, including enemies, by European knights, a well-known collection of wusses.

Kogai: scabbard-pin of the katana, used, among many other things, to pierce the ankle-vein of a suffering and dying man to give him a quicker death. Used by the samurai, yet another group known for their wussiness.

"He who fights monsters must take care lest he become a monster; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." -- Friedrich Nietsche, wimpiest, flabbiest philosopher of all time.

I bet those guys didn't even wear hats!

[dancrilis]

In terms of 'gender empowerment' I don't see any issue with someone else showing up to save them.

Haley stopped Xykon's plan back in the first dungeon after everyone else fell for it (and likely saved the Order as both Xykon and Redcloak might have decided to stop pulling punches after the rune was bypassed).
Haley was right about Shojo when Roy and the others missed it.
Haley was leader of the Order and the Resistance when Roy was dead (and kept everyone else alive in very harsh conditions at first as leader and successfully lead the resistance to the betterment of life in Gobbotopia for the non-goblinoids despite what seem via the text to be multiple run ins with Tsukiko).
- Those are just a small sample of the wins.

What Haley has never been is a major damage dealer within the Order, it is just not her role.
Further as a rogue against a Golem (with class levels) she is outmatched, seeking help (or accepting help) in this scenario is not weakness it is common sense.

The idea that Haley needs to be able to deal with every scenario on her own without assistance from her allies (allies who she knows to be more competent at the specific scenario) is not empowerment it is just discrimination of a different flavour, effectively it would be making her a Mary Sue character and worst a Mary Sue for no reason other then to support the idea that woman need to be portrayed as 'perfect' otherwise they are being portrayed negatively.

[goodpeople25]

I agree 100% with this. I'm dreading seeing Roy, Durk Malackssen, Belkar, or Elan appear on the scene at this point. It would be a shame to see the work that increased what I'd term my "gender and sexuality humanism" to fall back on an obsolete gender role stereotype. It would be the first thing to deeply disappoint me in this comic for a long, long while.
Ok elan saving the day i get that but wouldn't the rest of the order saving haley be saving a teammate and friend, unless all men see woman as things to be saved and can't be proper teammates to woman. Also isn't Haley's character growth learning to trust people not just herself and family.

[Emperordaniel]

"For my part, I pity even his slaves." -- Gandalf Greyhame, well-known weakling and wimp, on orcs and trolls.

Misericordia: small razor-sharp dagger carried to open the veins of people dying slowly in agony, including enemies, by European knights, a well-known collection of wusses.

Kogai: scabbard-pin of the katana, used, among many other things, to pierce the ankle-vein of a suffering and dying man to give him a quicker death. Used by the samurai, yet another group known for their wussiness.

"He who fights monsters must take care lest he become a monster; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." -- Friedrich Nietsche, wimpiest, flabbiest philosopher of all time.

*slow clap*

[Rakoa]

He was a Roman. Not sure how well that would go with the traditional paladin oath of chastity thing.


Paladins have no such oath. Nor do Monks, for that matter. There is, however, a feat in BoED for those who choose to walk that path.

[Liliet]

Ok elan saving the day i get that but wouldn't the rest of the order saving haley be saving a teammate and friend, unless all men see woman as things to be saved and can't be proper teammates to woman. Also isn't Haley's character growth learning to trust people not just herself and family.

If Haley was being distrustful of her team and then they proved her wrong by helping, then yes, it would be about her character growth.

If, however, they just showed up to help her deal with the first challenge she's faced on her own / with a female teammate in a very very long time... coz you know, everyone else in the Order except V is guys so p much no matter who Haley teams up with it'll be a guy unless it's someone new like Bandana, and I think the last time we saw that was in the Mark of Justice arc...

of course if /V/ shows up and saves the day it'll be grand no question

[Gusion]

If that sort of thing happens it's probably going to be Elan...

I was going to say Elan instead of Roy, but I couldn't think of anything that he could actually do to save her against Crystal. Plus if these gnomes are charitable they are dragging his unconscious body to the temple for care at the moment.

I didn't have any issue with Haley running to join up with the rest of the team to get help to fight Crystal together... that's just logical. But I'd rather she just die then somehow be last minute rescued by Roy/Durkon. It'd be even worse, for me personally, because she never made contact with them and they would have some excuse for showing up at the scene - e.g they heard there was a commotion so a hero has just gotta be there or some such.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Sympathy and empathy aren't signs of weakness at all. I think someone else argued that, it wasn't what I was saying.

What I was suggesting was that there are more and less sympathetic characters. Our heroes, not flawless and sinless, have erred, but regret those errors, and work very diligently to achieve goodness and justice not just for themselves, but for others. Case in point, Haley, a thief, selflessly doing everything she can to protect Gnomes she doesn't even gnow. (sorry)

Then you have characters like Miko, who commit acts of stupidity based on their warped understanding of good and evil. The intention is to serve good, but their brains aren't up to the task. Still, not a creature undeserving of our sympathies. Just less sympathetic, since this one wasn't really capable of finding fault in herself, only in others, and deemed herself to be the judge and executioner of any who got in her path of deluded self-righteousness.

Then you have creatures like Nale, acknowledged evil, who had love for some others, while having little love for most, and willingly took part in plans which involved the killing of many innocent bystanders, in addition to his sworn enemies. There's little that is sympathetic about the man, but there were parts of his story that were understandable, such as his horrible upbringing by his genocidal and overbearing (and jaywalking?) father.

And you have creatures like wights, who have no humanity whatsoever, no feelings of any kind, who will utterly destroy you on command without hesitation.

Crystal is demonstrating that she's most closely associated with that fourth category, except that she feels pain and rage. She has no morality whatsoever and loves nothing, and doesn't care about her victims.

I was simply observing that of any sentient being, Crystal is the least sympathetic.

Feeling sympathies for Crystal is generous, is all I'm saying, and the recipient of such sympathies wouldn't extend any in your direction. It is feeling sorry for the homeless man who, as it turns out, is willing to murder you without pity if they find out you have money, and you approached them offering money. You may have high-minded sympathies for this person, but they're simply a relentless murderer and they don't care about your sympathies, they just want you dead.

Acknowledging this is better than ignoring it, in my view.

High-minded sympathies are honorable and respectable, and strengthen you as a person, I agree. But it must also be acknowledged that there are more and less deserving beneficiaries of your sympathies.

I don't think it makes one heartless to acknowledge this, nor is it viewing the world through an absolutist lens of black and white.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The thing is someone else showing up doesn't automatically mean rescuing Haley. One of the reasons I favor Belkar showing up is because he'd have some trouble getting through Crystal's DR.

At this point, probably the best thing (tactically speaking) is for enough of the Order to show up to force this into a standoff (which would mean V using a forcecage, IMHO), and then let Haley talk. She's definitely the social-fu master of the party, and she could probably outthink Crystal while drunk, stoned and in a coma. Turn Crystal against Bozzok, let some mayhem roll, Crystal ends up in the conveniently available volcano.

And if this is what ends up happening, someone's going to have to help me get my jaw out of the floor.

[mouser9169]

I agree 100% with this. I'm dreading seeing Roy, Durk Malackssen, Belkar, or Elan appear on the scene at this point. It would be a shame to see the work that increased what I'd term my "gender and sexuality humanism" to fall back on an obsolete gender role stereotype. It would be the first thing to deeply disappoint me in this comic for a long, long while.

Feminism (or "gender and sexuality humanism") works both ways.
You can err by having the female characters portrayed too strongly as well.

The Order of the Stick is a team. They should be facing challenges together as a rule, with 'side fights' the exception. Personally, I had enough of those in DStP to last the whole strip. Let's keep the gang together for a while.

[goodpeople25]

If Haley was being distrustful of her team and then they proved her wrong by helping, then yes, it would be about her character growth.

If, however, they just showed up to help her deal with the first challenge she's faced on her own / with a female teammate in a very very long time... coz you know, everyone else in the Order except V is guys so p much no matter who Haley teams up with it'll be a guy unless it's someone new like Bandana, and I think the last time we saw that was in the Mark of Justice arc...

of course if /V/ shows up and saves the day it'll be grand no question
Im not saying it's growth I'm saying her previous growth is to trust people and they are her teammates so how does gender fit into it. Should it really matter that the rest of the team happens to be male, and only if a woman helps they are doing it for the right reason, but if men save haley they are helping cause they are a woman or are bieng sterotypical. Would it matter if haley saves roy, belkar or durkon.

[Triskavanski]

This is what I think of now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-a5Q-iV7SX8

[happycrow]

I don't think it makes one heartless to acknowledge this, nor is it viewing the world through an absolutist lens of black and white.

Closer, but not there - though I agree with your argument.

The sympathy comes from realizing that Crystal is not, in fact, category 4, a construct which just happens to have all those memories, but realizing that we're actually dealing with Cat3 (if one makes the argument that Crystal may totally dig on Bozzok and the other guildies, but we see her through a Haley-filtered lens). We go from the inane hyperviolent ramblings of a killmachine (punches gnomes to death for little/no reason), to a Crystal who is yelling "go away" and not killing everything in sight (immediately, necessarily - note how she completely bypassed Bandana(fn)* even though she's been carving on her with an adamantine shortsword), followed up with a big reveal on an internal state none of us would have otherwise guessed possible for a construct.

Thus, the Giant humanized the character far past what I personally would consider a Category Four.

(fn)*who gets some major hero points there -- whereas Haley's "reframing" can be interpreted somewhat cynically, bodyshielding a gnome from an enraged killmonster can't be interpreted as much other than voluntary self-sacrifice.