Caustic soul Genasi physics

[arcane_asp]

Okay, I hope this will be a quick question with a quick answer, someone out there must have had this issue...

Our party has a Caustic Soul abyssal Genasi swordmage. One of his powers is "Acid Surge" (or is it a feat? Can't remember, but it isn't really obscure or anything)

The debate that stalled our 4e game last night was: If the Genasi uses the Acid Surge power to move through enemy spaces and damage them, presumably he assumes his native element 'liquid' form to do so. What happens to his armour / weapons when he does? Surely they should drop through him and land on the ground?

In the end our DM ruled that the RAW didn't state any loss of equipment by using the power. From a fluff perspective though, it makes no sense. Can anyone offer a good reason how he could carry this with him?

[obryn]

Because if he dropped all his gear when he used his basic racial power (which isn't even all that powerful) it would become not just completely useless, but utterly awful to use.

What's more, there aren't any polymorph effects in the game that do what you're describing. A Warden doesn't bust out of his leather when assuming the Form of the Oak Sentinel, a Druid doesn't strip naked when Wild Shaping, and a Warlock doesn't phase out of his armor when going insubstantial.

Your DM made the right call; there's no need to utterly nerf a fairly lackluster racial power like that.

Seriously; don't stress the physics that much unless it leads to interesting results. Not just in 4e, but in any RPG.

[Yakk]

By RAW Polymorph keyword powers include gear in 4e.

Turning to acid isn't a biological feature of the race, it is a magical one. Polymorph magic effects both the character's flesh and gear equally in 4e.

[Boci]

As obryn said, D&D, and 4th ed especially, isn't too concerned with ingame physics, especially when the result would be limited or complex. That said, in this particular case there may be an answer: even in acidic form, the genasi still directs the movement, so they clearly have control over their form, so its possible their equipment stay there, floating in the liquid (the acid shouldn't be strong enough to harm it), and they then reshape into it.

[obryn]

By RAW Polymorph keyword powers include gear in 4e.

Turning to acid isn't a biological feature of the race, it is a magical one. J magic effects both the character's flesh and gear equally in 4e.
It's funny - it doesn't actually have the Polymorph keyword. This is probably fine, since Wardens and Druids can partake without nerfing their Polymorphs.

Still, losing equipment would be crazy.

[arcane_asp]

Turning to acid isn't a biological feature of the race, it is a magical one. Polymorph magic effects both the character's flesh and gear equally in 4e.

This fits the bill, just what I needed. There was also some debate about whether an acid genasi could 'turn off' his acidic nature to allow him to wear clothes/armour, climb ropes, etc. That just got a bit silly really - obviously he could otherwise he would be pretty handicapped on the material planes :smallredface:

Although it does raise the question, can he assume a partial liquid form, morph and change his body, etc. I haven't found too much background on this so not really sure how extensive the genasi elemental morphing powers were.

[Zaq]

Powers do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say anything about making you drop all your equipment, so you don't. But it also doesn't say anything about a "partial liquid form," so that doesn't happen either.

[Yakk]

Stunting based off flavor text should be encouraged (or alternate interpretations, if you reskinned).

[obryn]

Powers do what they say they do. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't say anything about making you drop all your equipment, so you don't. But it also doesn't say anything about a "partial liquid form," so that doesn't happen either.

Stunting based off flavor text should be encouraged (or alternate interpretations, if you reskinned).
Yep. I'd allow partial transformations for some kind of cool effect, myself. No reason not to.

[Yakk]

There is a reason not to:

If "strange" characters can both do "standard" stunts and "extra" stuff based off their "strangeness", then "normal" characters are worse.

This in previous editions was the "human fighter" problem: human fighters are limited in their stunt mechanics based off what the DM imagines a fit human can do. Classes with access to "magic" can use that magic in both "the text overrides the rules" and "the flavor text can be used to stunt" means: they can both create a fire attack that does not burn anything but what they want (as "the power does what it says it does"), and use the fire attack to set things on fire at a range (because the flavor text says fire).

Meanwhile, the fighter character who pulls out a bow and sets a rag on fire can be told "no, that won't work, because $reasons".

And even if you say "but the fighter can do physical stunts, while the wizard cannot": A "mundane" character (like a fighter) can easily be restricted to a strict subset of the stunts that a "magical" character (like a warden) with a similar archetype can pull off.

In short, if the Gensai can do stunts involving turning into part liquid acid, then what stunts can the Human do that the Gensai cannot do?

Still, this is a secondary problem. I'd vote for rule of cool and encouraging stunts over these concerns. And if you pay attention, the Human race in 4e is the "Indiana Jones" race in flavor text: so you could run with that as a DM. (Narrative control over the environment for the purpose of stunting, especially when burning action points or the like)

[Tegu8788]

I like that idea, spending an action point to try out something extra.

[arcane_asp]

I like the ideas there. I'm going to propose to the DM that the Genasi can alter/morph his body.

TBH, its part of a long term plan to let him flow under the door of a vault that the party has had dangled in front of them. I might try and break out some 'half-elf charm offensive' manoeuvres using the same guidelines, I'd sacrifice an action point to pull off some outrageous feat of arrogance :smallsmile:

[Burley]

Stuff like this... Man, you just gotta shrug it off.

Shardminds have the racial ability to transform into a tornado of crystal. Does this drop their equipment? Does it tear it to shreds? Is there a crystalline coat hook that carries the equipment around? None of that makes sense in a game.
If your PC can turn into acid, why are you worried about his clothes falling to the ground, when they obviously would be dissolved by the acid?

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, a game is just a game. Verisimilitude doesn't have to be there.

[Tegu8788]

TBH, its part of a long term plan to let him flow under the door of a vault that the party has had dangled in front of them.

No. Full stop. That's bad. Don't do this.

Play against the villains, against the game. To not play against your GM. If you try to cheat, bend the rules, whatever, to beat the GM, then you might just find a dragon behind the door that is really hungry. Or maybe the safe house of yours will be burgled by a liquid Genasi.


Being creative is good. Trying to use rule bending of the past to force a GM to let you further rule bend, is bad.