Oops...3.5 Magic in a 4E Game...

[NeoSeraphi]

So, I decided to run a game for a group of kids in 4E. I've never even played the game before, but I originally joined as a player and the DM realized he was too busy to run so to prevent the game from dying I took up the reigns.

We've had two sessions so far and no one has any complaints but I'm a little, well...in trouble.

I recycled a group of villains I used in a 3.5 game that are each a Grandmaster of one of the 8 schools of magic, but as far as I can tell it seems like only conjuration and evocation are really represented in this system, at least as far as at-will/encounter/daily powers are concerned. There seems to be a startling lack of necromancy, abjuration, enchantment, and divination (I think even the humble detect magic didn't even make it in as a ritual!)

How can I appropriately represent the non-damaging schools of magic in a 4E game, or do I just have to have my players fight against magic they themselves will never be able to replicate or understand out of character?

[obryn]

Detect Magic is just an Arcana skill use now; no need to worry there!

If your players are facing off against NPCs, it's best generally to build them using the monster rules rather than trying to run a PC-vs-PC combat. The system isn't balanced for that sort of thing, and it can get really complicated from the DM's side.

My advice is to use the existing powers as inspirations, and just use the MM3-on-a-business-card (http://blogofholding.com/?p=512) stats. Each of the Wizards is probably a Standard monster if you plan on having all of them in a single combat, or an Elite if they're going to be separately tackled or tackled in pairs.

Most of the schools of magic have made an appearance in 4e. Necromancy was in Heroes of Shadow. Illusion and Enchantment were in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. Transmutation was big in Heroes of the Feywild. Conjuration is pretty much everywhere, spread around, with I think some Dragon articles really focused on it. Abjuration is normally found in Utility spells, and Divination is mostly Rituals with a few Utility spells.

Again, though, use these for inspiration. Don't just port the mechanics, because it won't work. For every NPC (Standard here, not Elite) just pick a Trait, 1-2 At-Wills, and 1-2 Encounter abilities.

Evoker is easy. Give a melee 1 shocking grasp sort of attack, then an Area at-will. Add in a more massive Fireball sort of ability with a huge area as an Encounter spell.

I just used a Necromancer in-game the other week. A chill touch at-will, a Ray of Enfeeblement sort of Weakening effect, a Trait to raise fallen allies as 'zombies,' and an Encounter ability to speed along death saves should work.

Conjurers can get tricky. I'd just plan on fitting a summoned monster into the encounter budget, and use At-Wills like swarms of insects. Flaming Sphere sorts of deals on an Encounter basis could change the field.

An Abjurer could easily be a powerful support character. Give him an Interrupt ability to block (5xTier) damage dealt to an ally and have him throw out wall effects. Make his at-wills target allies, buff them, and attack enemies around him. Stat him up as a Soldier, even, and maybe give him a Mark ability for fun.

Diviners are hard, too, but as support characters they could be awesome. Give him an Interrupt (recharge-based maybe) which lets him give allies re-rolls. Let him roll 2x for his own attacks, at -25% damage.

Enchanters are pure Controllers. Domination effects are super powerful, and I'd use them with caution, but this gives you a great time to do it.

It works out really well, but you can't approach this with a 3.5 mindset. The mechanics of the system are pretty different, but this has some really neat possibilities.

[NeoSeraphi]

I only have access to the books the player who was originally going to run has, which is PHB I/II/III, Heroes of Feywild, something similar to Complete Arcana, the DMG, and the MM I and MM II.

[obryn]

I only have access to the books the player who was originally going to run has, which is PHB I/II/III, Heroes of Feywild, something similar to Complete Arcana, the DMG, and the MM I and MM II.
OK, then I'll be happy to help out. :smallsmile: I just need to know some basic information.

(1) What level and party size is the group now?
(2) How do you intend to use these wizards? Are they a far-future goal, or an immediate one?
(3) When they are eventually tackled, will they probably be tackled together, or would that only happen if the players seriously blunder?

[NeoSeraphi]

Thank you for your patience! :smallsmile:

1) We have two players who have never played an RPG before, as well as one person who is like me, a 3.PF veteran who is new to 4E, and the last person is a 4E vet with all the books. Total of 4 players who just hit level 3.

We have a tiefling wizard (Controller), a dwarven runepriest (Defender), a half-elf bard (Leader) and a razorclaw shifter monk (Striker).

2) I intend for the Grandmasters to act as anti-heroes and villains for most of the game, with some of them allying with the group and others changing their minds at different times. They are very dynamic characters with their own motivations and they are by all means not cut from the same cloth (different values, different alignments). They rarely interact with each other, and so far we have had the Grandmaster of Abjuration act as a sort of begrudging mentor/guide to them who actively helped them in their first boss fight.

I was planning on four of them being allies (Abjuration, Transmutation, Evocation, and Divination) and four of them being enemies (Conjuration, Necromancy, Enchantment and Illusion) with the Abjurer being the closest and most direct ally to the party, and the Illusionist being the "big bad" in terms of the strongest and most dangerous enemy to the party.

That said, I'm certainly not against some of the fated enemies to help the party occasionally while they are still being developed, nor am I against the allies scrapping with the party sometimes (I actually introduced the Abjurer as a guardian of a place they were exploring. The runepriest attempted to get past him and I knocked him to -2 to prove a point).

3) I imagine these enemies will largely be fought alone at various points throughout the game, though I could certainly foresee them pairing together at some points and even a final four on four showdown at some point way down the line.

[Beta Centauri]

You might consider making them into obstacles rather than creatures with normal statistics. A diviner doesn't need direct offensive capability, and can't necessarily be directly attacked. The movie "Push" for instance had a mind-reader enemy and the only chance the main characters had was to not know the entire plan (which was made easier by having a precognitive on their team).

I'm not sure how you'd handle a sideways move like that, in any system, but the point is that threats don't have to be direct threats and the way to defeat them doesn't have to be a direct assault.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, I mean, I definitely want to show off their magical power. Having them just loom over the party as threats that never do anything "on-screen" wouldn't be any fun for the players.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

@NeoSeraphi: I would be happy to knock these up for you over the weekend. What races do you want? Any signature spells that you want to include for flavour reasons? Do any of them have signature items?

I'll make them level 6 standard monsters except for the illusionist whom I will make a level 6 elite. If you like them, they are easy enough to level up or down from there.

In terms of roles, here's what I will be working with:

Abjurer: lurker (yes, believe it or not :) )
Conjurer: controller
Diviner: controller
Enchanter: controller
Evoker: ARTILLERY (yes, all caps is deliberate)
Illusionist: controller or possibly lurker
Necromancer: controller or possibly artillery (I have two existing stat blocks you might like to look at here (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wPwQuNstrew/VPcg9EYh8HI/AAAAAAAACkA/RhPCSY5GAqQ/s1600/NPC%2BAskarro%2Bthe%2BLich-Construct.jpg) and here (4.bp.blogspot.com/-A178SZQEQm0/VQRYobltDgI/AAAAAAAACos/ZNFHiMLyLRc/s1600/Thayan%2BNecromancer.jpg) but I will make simpler versions for you: these were very much campaign-specific)
Transmuter: controller

[NeoSeraphi]

Nice of you to offer, but I was expecting these guys to be closer to level 10, each.

Let's see, the Abjurer (Half-Elf) wears full plate and wields a special greatsword that has 6d6 base W damage (It's Gargantuan sized).

The Conjurer (Fetchling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-fetchling)) wields a whip and has a penchant for summoning elementals of all varieties.

The Diviner is a drider with a vicious poisonous stinger that slowly transforms anyone stung by it into her undead servant.

The Enchanter is a human female who specializes in compulsion spells.

The Evoker is a nymph who deals nothing but fire damage. She has a phoenix familiar.

The Illusionist is a Vishkanya (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vishkanyas) with the ability to make his illusions partially real. He's also a traveling stage magician so the prestidigitation cantrip is his bread and butter.

The Necromancer is a half-orc vampire with a special staff that allows him to walk in the daylight. He prefers to raise his army through his vampire spawn ability than his magic.


Edit: Forgot, I replaced the Necromancer in this game, sorry. The Necromancer is a human male who crafts flesh golems out of dead creatures. He also constantly reattaches his own body parts (as comic relief I tend to have each scene he appears in involve one of his limbs flying off, only for him to sew it back on).

The Transmuter is a changeling with a natural slam attack that fights more like a monk than a mage. He has the ability to stun enemies with his unarmed strikes and uses his spells to make him resistant to almost any attack.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

I quickly knocked up the powers of a necromancer before I saw your reply. First, here's the rough draft:


===========
NECROMANCER
===========

Level 6 Controller (leader)
Medium natural humanoid, human

TRAITS

Death Knell Aura * Aura 5
Each time a creature in the aura drops to 0 hit points or fails a death saving throw, the necromancer regains 5 hit points.

STANDARD

M Necromancer's Staff (necrotic, weapon)
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature), +11 vs AC
Hit: 2d6+4 necrotic damage, and the target is unable to regain hit points until the end of the necromancer's next turn.

R Ray of Enfeeblement (necrotic)
Attack: Ranged 10 (one creature), +9 vs Fortitude
Hit: 2d6+4 necrotic damage, and the target is weakened until the end of the necromancer's next turn.

a Grasp of the Grave (conjuration, necrotic, zone) * Encounter
Attack: Area burst 1 within 10 (enemies in burst), +9 vs Reflex
Hit: 2d8+5 necrotic damage, and the target is immobilised (save ends).
Miss: Half damage.
Effect: The burst becomes a zone until the end of the encounter. An enemy that starts its turn in the zone takes 5 necrotic damage and is slowed until the end of its next turn.

But then you posted all of this which is simply so much better....


Nice of you to offer, but I was expecting these guys to be closer to level 10, each. (snip)

Excellent. Anyway, changing the level of a monster in 4E is not like 3.xE or Pathfinder: it is really easy.


Let's see, the Abjurer (Half-Elf) wears full plate and wields a special greatsword that has 6d6 base W damage (It's Gargantuan sized).

Yeah, 4E doesn't work quite like that.

What I can do is make the abjurer a level 10 brute. That will give it an AC and other defences of 22 and a base average damage of 22 - that's the same as 6d6+1 - and tweak it from there. How does that sound?


The Conjurer (Fetchling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-fetchling)) wields a whip and has a penchant for summoning elementals of all varieties.

Ahhh, good. I was going to use an elemental them.


The Diviner is a drider with a vicious poisonous stinger that slowly transforms anyone stung by it into her undead servant.

Nice. I have used an undead wyvern that turned victims of its sting into undead creatures. I could use that as a basis for this.


The Enchanter is a human female who specializes in compulsion spells.

Are you familiar with the list of conditions in 4E? In the case of the enchanter, I will give her an encounter power that dominates (dominated is a condition) and then a basic ranged attack that deals psychic damage and dazes. You can flavour those attacks with whatever verbiage makes them seem like the spells she used to cast.


The Evoker is a nymph who deals nothing but fire damage. She has a phoenix familiar.

I've never used a familiar in 4E for an NPC. Oh well, easy enough to do. Have you read the familiar rules in 4E? They're very different to 3.5E. (They're in Arcane Power, IIRC.)


The Illusionist is a Vishkanya (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-vishkanyas) with the ability to make his illusions partially real. He's also a traveling stage magician so the prestidigitation cantrip is his bread and butter.

Honestly, you don't both with stuff like prestidigitation in a 4E stat block. That's the sort of thing you hand wave as the DM. But partially real illusions is effectively the same as a conjuration. I will probably just reflavour the conjurer stat block I create.

The Necromancer is a half-orc vampire with a special staff that allows him to walk in the daylight. He prefers to raise his army through his vampire spawn ability than his magic.

Now that could have been interesting.... :)


Edit: Forgot, I replaced the Necromancer in this game, sorry. The Necromancer is a human male who crafts flesh golems out of dead creatures. He also constantly reattaches his own body parts (as comic relief I tend to have each scene he appears in involve one of his limbs flying off, only for him to sew it back on).

And that's going to be interesting to try and turn into a 4E stat block. Crawling claws, here we come....


The Transmuter is a changeling with a natural slam attack that fights more like a monk than a mage. He has the ability to stun enemies with his unarmed strikes and uses his spells to make him resistant to almost any attack.

Resistant to almost any attack? Check out the gargoyle in the 4E Monster Vault. I'll reskin that and give you your transmuter. And he will be a lurker.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah, 4E doesn't work quite like that.

What I can do is make the abjurer a level 10 brute. That will give it an AC and other defences of 22 and a base average damage of 22 - that's the same as 6d6+1 - and tweak it from there. How does that sound?


Sounds good.



Are you familiar with the list of conditions in 4E? In the case of the enchanter, I will give her an encounter power that dominates (dominated is a condition) and then a basic ranged attack that deals psychic damage and dazes. You can flavour those attacks with whatever verbiage makes them seem like the spells she used to cast.
Okay, how does the dominated condition work?



I've never used a familiar in 4E for an NPC. Oh well, easy enough to do. Have you read the familiar rules in 4E? They're very different to 3.5E. (They're in Arcane Power, IIRC.)
Nope, I haven't.



Honestly, you don't both with stuff like prestidigitation in a 4E stat block. That's the sort of thing you hand wave as the DM. But partially real illusions is effectively the same as a conjuration. I will probably just reflavour the conjurer stat block I create.

Yeah.




And that's going to be interesting to try and turn into a 4E stat block. Crawling claws, here we come....


Crawling claws. Cool.



Resistant to almost any attack? Check out the gargoyle in the 4E Monster Vault. I'll reskin that and give you your transmuter. And he will be a lurker.

Alright. Yeah, he's supposed to be basically unkillable.

[Tegu8788]

There could be a mechanic, recharges when bloodied. Gains regen X and resist Y until no longer bloodied. That would make him very difficult to damage. Or give him insubstantial intermittently, or turn into a swarm as an interrupt, pulling himself together after getting hit hard.

[Gilphon]

Dominated means you're dazed and the dominating creatures chooses your actions, but can't make you use encounter or daily powers.

[georgie_leech]

Dominated means you're dazed and the dominating creatures chooses your actions, but can't make you use encounter or daily powers.

This is it exactly. Dominate in 4E is very much of the "wrestling for control of their mind" sort of mental control, as oppose to 3.x's puppetmaster-like control.

[ScrivenerofDoom]

There could be a mechanic, recharges when bloodied. Gains regen X and resist Y until no longer bloodied. That would make him very difficult to damage. Or give him insubstantial intermittently, or turn into a swarm as an interrupt, pulling himself together after getting hit hard.

Insubstantial is no fun in play, IME, but I love the swarm idea.

[NeoSeraphi]

Insubstantial is no fun in play, IME, but I love the swarm idea.

It's interesting but it really doesn't fit the character. It's definitely more like a gargoyle, he constantly shifts his skin to become hard as a golems to reflect and shatter blades that hit him.

[Tegu8788]

Think mechanics, not fluff. I've not played against insubstantial, so it may be no fun to play with. I only fought one swarm, at Lvl 17, we ending up throwing torches and rolling rocks. Just some thoughts. I have a lot of ideas, not all are useful. Use what you like.

[georgie_leech]

Think mechanics, not fluff. I've not played against insubstantial, so it may be no fun to play with. I only fought one swarm, at Lvl 17, we ending up throwing torches and rolling rocks. Just some thoughts. I have a lot of ideas, not all are useful. Use what you like.

I find Insubstantial in itself kind of boring, as all it does is reduce damage. It's functionally just doubled hp if it's always on. If you pair it with some sort of weakness or trigger, it becomes an element to play around instead of just making fights a slog.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's what I would do.

Look over the level 6 to level 13 spell list for wizards (and if you want, sorcerers and warlocks). These are all abilities that will eventually be in reach of player characters of the proper class or multiclass. Out of that list, find one attack and one utility that you feel most closely represent that school. Then give these to the grandmaster as encounter powers. There's no need to design the entire grandmaster as if it were a PC, of course; just give it two visual and evocative powers (in addition to e.g. the poison stinger).

For instance,

Abjurer => L13 Arcane Chastisement, L10 Circle of Protection
Conjurer => L9 Summon Hellhound (refluff as fire elemental), L6 Summon Iron Cohort
Diviner => L9 Visions of Ruin, L6 Insightful Warning

And so forth.

[Laserlight]

Look over the level 6 to level 13 spell list for wizards (and if you want, sorcerers and warlocks). These are all abilities that will eventually be in reach of player characters of the proper class or multiclass. Out of that list, find one attack and one utility that you feel most closely represent that school. Then give these to the grandmaster as encounter powers.

And don't be afraid to refluff. You like "Summon Magma Beast" butit doesn't quite fit with your cast? Call it "Summon Phoenix", make its movement "flight", and give it to your nymph. Or change it from "fire" to "necrotic", call it "Summon Plague Rodent-Of-Unusual-Size", and your necromancer is happy.

[NeoSeraphi]

And don't be afraid to refluff. You like "Summon Magma Beast" butit doesn't quite fit with your cast? Call it "Summon Phoenix", make its movement "flight", and give it to your nymph. Or change it from "fire" to "necrotic", call it "Summon Plague Rodent-Of-Unusual-Size", and your necromancer is happy.

Yeah, but these guys will be doing lots of stuff out of combat too. Flight, teleportation, crafting golems, summoning multiple creatures, plane shifting, mind-reading, charming, domination, memory erasure, shattering buildings with sound, crafting hallucinatory terrains and other complex illusions/magical disguises, etc.

[Tegu8788]

If they are making hallucinatory terrain, just make it difficult terrain. You can call it a spell, but you can do just about whatever you want, within reason. If these guys are truly masters, maybe they can pull of a ritual mid combat, or just have the good guys arrive just as the ritual ends.