Mental Stat-Focused Martial Classes in D&D?

[Sardonic]

I love playing as int-heavy characters, but I'm sick of playing wizards! They seem to be the only class (in this edition and many others) that can maximize intelligence and get away with it, but I feel as though there are archetypes in fiction of characters who are excellent at combat but are primarily intellectually based (think Sherlock Holmes in the recent-ish movies). So basically, I think it would be cool if there was a martial class that allowed that kind of archetype without seriously hurting the playability of the character. I mean, if I just rolled a fighter and put my highest stat in intelligence, I could potentially have a cool character, but I'd have a lot more trouble in combat.

Has anyone ever seen a class in any edition of D&D that is distinctly martial, including *not* having spells as a class feature, but that encourages maximizing a mental stat instead of a physical stat? If so, I think it'd be cool to try to migrate it over to 5e, which is so new that I doubt anything like this exists, but I'd definitely want to hear about it if it did! Alternatively, though less to my satisfaction, could someone suggest a different game/roleplaying system that would allow for a character like this?

[MrStabby]

So I got into D&D from Bioware's Neverwinter Nights video games and they had some mental focussed martial characters.

They had the Paladin with Charisma and Monk with Wisdom as we do now but also a lot of intelligence based fighters. This was mainly due to some feats being needed for prestige classes and those feats requiring intelligence. There were also some classes that let you add intelligence to armour class or used it to pump damage.

If I remember correctly the assassin there also used Int to determine the DC of saves vs its death attacks and its spells.

[dev6500]

I think you will have to wait for them to make new books with extra rules for something like that. I remember quite a few prestige classes and additional classes in dnd 3.5 that utilized intelligence. Duelist and Swashbuckler were 2 I remember and I think there were more but its been awhile since I looked through 3.5 splat books. Also, in 5e, since Intelligence is only used for Int saving throws, Int based skill checks, and as a casting stat, it doesn't look like there currently exist any non-caster options for int.

If you wanted to do something homebrew, you could probably give the eldritch knight something similar to a smite ability. IE, sacrifice a spell slot and you can add your Int number to your next X attacks where X is the level of the spell slot you sacrifice. Perhaps give it an effect based on one of the schools of spells you have prepared for the day. What abilities you would swap out to balance that is another story though.

[Shining Wrath]

In 3.5, look up the Warblade. He gets several bonuses based on his Intelligence (Reflex saves, confirming critical hits, more), and tasty tasty warrior stuff: D12 HD, medium armor, full BAB, Tome of Battle maneuvers.

The Warblade is quite possibly the best martial class going for 3.5, and for your purposes of also relying on intelligence is close to ideal. The fluff describes the Warblade as the ultimate student of swordplay, the woman who practices stances while on watch.

For 5e, I suggest:


Eldritch Knight. A Fighter who also casts from the Wizard spell list using Intelligence as the casting stat
Arcane Trickster. A Rogue who gets some tricks using Mage Hand

[Mr.Moron]

Not really, there have been some kind of things that have int-based abilities like the Warblade but I can't think of anything that was int-primary and also not magical. Might be a good place to do some home brew though, the first thing that comes to mind is some kind of "Tactician" fighter subclass that behaves a bit like a Marshal or Warlord but instead of being an inspiration leader (CHA) the fluff is all around planning & analysis.

EDIT: I'd imagine something focused on the Reaction mechanic and planning.

[Magic Myrmidon]

I have. But it's not in D&D, it's in Legend from Rule of Cool (http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,1341.0.html). One of my favorite things about that system is the way that you can choose any 2 ability scores and basically base your character off of those. So, you could have a fighter who uses intelligence for offense, charisma for defense, and an 8 strength, and still be super effective.

It's that way for any class, not just the mundanes.

[WickerNipple]

Warlord (Int Based) would be the obvious one to me.

But Warlord filled grognards with hate, so we can't have nice things.

[mephnick]

In 3.5, look up the Warblade. He gets several bonuses based on his Intelligence (Reflex saves, confirming critical hits, more), and tasty tasty warrior stuff: D12 HD, medium armor, full BAB, Tome of Battle maneuvers.]

Eh, well technically true, the warblade isn't really mental-focused. I'm playing one now (level 11) and always forget the +Int stuff exists because it's so minor. There's no reason to max Int as a Warblade, it's still the 3rd or 4th most important stat.

3.5 never had an effective single class intelligence warrior during it's entire run, unfortunately.

You'd really need to homebrew your own warlord or make a duelist class that doesn't suck.

[Shining Wrath]

Eh, well technically true, the warblade isn't really mental-focused. I'm playing one now (level 11) and always forget the +Int stuff exists because it's so minor. There's no reason to max Int as a Warblade, it's still the 3rd or 4th most important stat.

3.5 never had an effective single class intelligence warrior during it's entire run, unfortunately.

You'd really need to homebrew your own warlord or make a duelist class that doesn't suck.

It's easy to forget some of the higher level benefits, but I had my bacon saved by +2 to Reflex save a couple of times, and did confirm some critical hits. We didn't get too many surprise rounds.

But yes, the Int bonuses are incidental. OTOH, you can refluff some of the class features as being "you get these because you're the full-time student of martial weaponry" - the bonus feats, the ability to retrain single-weapon feats, and so on. I got a lot of mileage out of retraining Exotic Weapon proficiency, using spiked chain some days and Great Bow some others.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Oh. In 3.5, you could take 3 levels of swashbuckler for int to damage. Against things that aren't crit immune. So you'll need to invest some resources into it to make it worthwhile. But my longest running and favorite character is one who has dex to hit (at 22 or so), and mainly int for damage (around 20). He's also a dervish, with two weapon fighting, so he can get 16 attacks with at least +5 int damage to each attack, not counting magic and such.

Soooo it's possible, but not optimal.

[Sardonic]

Great responses, guys, but Warblade isn't exactly what I'm looking for. I looked up the class, and while I appreciate that it does encourage putting points in int, the primary stat according to a guide on this very website (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176968-Masters-of-the-Sword-A-Warblade-s-Handbook-Under-Construction) is still strength. While I am by no means giving up on this, I think D&D isn't well suited to this kind of build. D&D focuses on ability scores having direct effects on the game that are always true, and then has classes that are designed around having effects and then recommends ability scores based on what would best achieve those effects. For example, if you want your chance to hit to go up, you have to always increase strength. You can take weapon finesse and increase your chance to hit based on dex instead, but that costs you a feat.

Contrast games like World of Warcraft, or potentially, as Magic Myrmidon points out, Legend (a game I haven't played or read the rules to, but as per Myr's recommendation I now have the PDF open in another tab). In games these games (or at least in WoW, which is, again, the one of these two examples I am familiar with), class determines how ability scores function, rather than the other way around. In WoW, rogues gain attack power from dex (er... Agility, in that game), while warriors gain attack power from strength. Therefore, warriors and rogues get better at melee combat by increasing different stats. In D&D, without a class that totally rewrites the way attributes work specifically for that class, having an increase in int directly correlate to an all-around improved combat ability is tricky at best and horribly cumbersome at worst, I imagine. At the very least, creating such a class would be kind of combating the whole set up provided by the D&D system.

However, more in keeping with D&D (or at least 5e), I like the idea Mr.Moron proposes of basing a class around Reactions and planning. I think if I were to homebrew a class to fit this archetype, this is exactly the avenue I would take. Again using the example of Sherlock Holmes in the Hollywood blockbusters, he calculates his moves very carefully and uses that to best his enemies in physical combat. Anyone have any ideas of what, exactly, this might look like, mechanically? I'm imagining a character being allowed to plan reactions based on expected courses of actions taken by the opponent, and having these reactions be quite a bit more powerful than the normal standard actions. The specific abilities available to take as reactions would be dictated by the class, I would guess.

For example, if you ready a counter-attack, you might get an increase to AC for the turn against one opponent and gain the ability to take a reaction to with increased damage against said opponent if they decide to attack you that turn. Such a class may also have a pool of points that allow them to take these actions without having to plan ahead, thus taking these reactions for "free," albeit to only do it a limited number of times per day or something? I dunno, that's just off the top of my head. Thoughts?

[ChubbyRain]

Sadly for people like us this system isn't made for us to enjoy fully. We will have to wait and MAYBE get noncasters that aren't so damn one dimensional.

Or we will never get this, who knows.

[Chronos]

The factotum from 3.5 was definitely int-based (even more so than the wizard), and could hold its own in combat (especially for tripping, bull rushing, and anything else that would ordinarily be a Strength check), but its specialty was skills, not combat, and it did have a minor spattering of spells.

There were also ways to build a monk that depended more on Wis than on any physical stats, but that wasn't a feature of the standard class (they still needed Wis, but then, they needed everything).

[Magic Myrmidon]

I should probably mention that I houserule Legend to allow players to freely choose their KOM and KDM, as long as they are different scores. It's easy to implement, and I haven't seen balance problems in my games.

[Sardonic]

I should probably mention that I houserule Legend to allow players to freely choose their KOM and KDM, as long as they are different scores. It's easy to implement, and I haven't seen balance problems in my games.

Ah, I see! I'll keep that in mind as I read through the rules.

[Galen]

Eh, well technically true, the warblade isn't really mental-focused. I'm playing one now (level 11) and always forget the +Int stuff exists because it's so minor. There's no reason to max Int as a Warblade, it's still the 3rd or 4th most important stat.

3.5 never had an effective single class intelligence warrior during it's entire run, unfortunately.

You'd really need to homebrew your own warlord or make a duelist class that doesn't suck.
Monk with Kung-Fu Genius (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Kung_Fu_Genius) comes close. In 5E, just ask your DM for a home-brew Monk that's based off Int instead of Wis.

[ChubbyRain]

As much as I loathe paizo (for the copy an paste they did on the base rules and a few other things) the Lore Warden is a great upgrade to the normal fighter.

Whenever I do jump into a pathfinder game it is the basis for most of my martial characters. A friend made a hellacious build that combined the Lore Warden, Horizon Walker, and some other prestige class (that wasn't really needed).

Could teleport all over the battlefield tripping and stunning creatures... Very very effective build. It was even built as an anti-teleport and the same tactic wouldn't work on him.

Not Int based as much as I would like, but the extra skill points was crucial to getting into Horizon Walker at the normal time (which gave you the teleport ability eventually).

[D.U.P.A.]

Eldritch knight, start as variant human with a magic initiate feat (high elf with his cantrip could work too) and choose some attacking cantrips like Firebolt or Shocking grasp, some spell you deem useful once per day, until level 3 you will be moderately effective, however after you are getting extra attacks in higher levels, it may look poor as probably your attack stat will be low.

EK and AT are based off Wizard, which is the only Int class for now, so you do not have much choice.

[Yorrin]

With the right feats in 3.5 you could build a melee and/or Archer that was purely Wis focused (to hit, damage, AC several times, saves, etc). Also Cha focused was very easy to stack to defenses, though offenses less so.

In 5e, though, thanks to the new Magic Stone spell from EE you could use Magic Initiate to pick up that and Shillelagh for a "martial" build that is pure Wis for melee and ranged. Variant Human can do this right from level one, and it works pretty well on a Fighter chassis. Go with medium armor if you're planning to dump Str/Dex. Con would still be a good thing, but that's true of every character in every edition. This is actually a build I'm considering for an upcoming campaign.