Can an Effigy be Constructed of Temporarily Alive Creatures?

[unseenmage]

Can an Effigy be constructed from temporarily living things? I misspoke. I'm asking if the Effigy template can be applied to creatures who are only living creatures temporarily.

Say, for example, could one make an Effigy of an Iron Golem who was affected by the Greater Humanoid Essence spell and turned into a Humanoid?

Especially considering the possibility to make Greater Humanoid Essence permanent via other magical shenanigans. (Thoughts on this more than welcome as well.)

Edit: Another example would be an animated object which has been affected by Greater Humanoid Essence. Could apply the Effigy Template to that?

[Troacctid]

No. You don't make effigies out of living creatures. You make them out of wood, leather, metal, and wire.

Also, most living things are "temporarily living." Immortality is a relatively uncommon ability.

[unseenmage]

No. You don't make effigies out of living creatures. You make them out of wood, leather, metal, and wire.

Also, most living things are "temporarily living." Immortality is a relatively uncommon ability.

Wow, two literal answers to the same misspoken question. Though on these boards I shouldn't be surprised.

They're both wrong answers as Shapechange and Polymorph Any Object are a thing. But nice try anyway guys.

What I'm asking is can the Effigy template be applied to temporarily living things as per my example. Will edit the OP to reflect.

[Sliver]

I think the main obstacle would be to have the Humanoid Essence last that long, since the construction of an effigy would take 2 days at best (2500gp for a tiny, 1 HD one).

[Troacctid]

You don't create an effigy by modifying an existing creature. You build it from scratch. Casting a transformation spell on something has absolutely no effect on your ability to create an effigy of it.

[Sliver]

You don't create an effigy by modifying an existing creature. You build it from scratch. Casting a transformation spell on something has absolutely no effect on your ability to create an effigy of it.

You build the body, but why is the Effigy an acquired template? :smallconfused:

[Curmudgeon]

You build the body, but why is the Effigy an acquired template? :smallconfused:
There are only two types of templates, and the other one is inherited. Because an Effigy is built, not created biologically, acquired is the less unreasonable option. It just means that, when the thing is created, it's done so by modeling a creature out of the wood, metal, leather, and wire parts. That's the reverse of how most templates work, which is a transformation of an existing creature. For an Effigy it's a transformation into a creature. Still, the template mechanism works to describe the result; it's just not intuitive.

[unseenmage]

So it is doable then. Effigies of creatures which aren't creatures for the duration it would take to make an effigy are possible?

How interesting.


Are there any other Templates which work on a similar principle that make non-Construct creatures?

Even 3rd party would do. Am just curious what options this might open up as I was working from the other assumption, the one where it didn't work.

[atemu1234]

No. You don't make effigies out of living creatures. You make them out of wood, leather, metal, and wire.

Also, most living things are "temporarily living." Immortality is a relatively uncommon ability.

I find the second part of this answer hilarious, for some reason.

[Curmudgeon]

So it is doable then. Effigies of creatures which aren't creatures for the duration it would take to make an effigy are possible?
Not "for the duration", but permanently. If you kill a construct creature and can extract enough wood, metal, leather, and wire from the remains (now an object or collection of objects) to construct your Effigy of some new creature, you can apply the template to that result.

[Chronos]

I dunno, that sounds more like an inherited template, to me: An effigy creature has never been a non-effigy creature. It's had the template from the first moment of its existence, as a direct result of how it came into existence.

[unseenmage]

Okay, so because an Effigy is built from scratch and not actually applied to an existing creature that has to be present for the construction, as opposed to using the Mineralize Warrior (Un) spell, we can build Effigies from whatever monster stats we like so long as they fit the requisites right?

So we can build an Effigy of a Greater Humanoid Essence-ed golem if we really want to. Could even build one of an Animated Object: chair if we really wanted.


The new question is, could we build an Effigy modeled after a creature that does not have class levels that is suffering from level loss? A creature whose vital stats have been affected by Poison or Disease? Or further, a creature that has just taken damage from a fall? A creature with a broken leg?

If the above is okay then would building an Effigy of a creature under the effect of a stat-boosting spell work?


I'm wondering where the line is drawn. I suspect that there is some implication in the RAW keeping us from using statblocks affected by spells or other, normally temporary, game states (poison, disease, level loss) from being used when templating monsters.
If not then wow, definitely modeling my Effigy's on bespelled creatures from now on. Effigy Choker with Gorillon Arms anyone?


Edit: One thought would be that just because the Template can be applied doesn't mean the duration of the change to the statblock doesn't carry over as well. For example, sure maybe one could make a Bull's Strength-ed Effigy but the duration of that magic could be said to expire as normal since the Effigy could be a truly perfect copy of the base creature.
Though this does not help with spells that have a lasting duration.

Perhaps too the spell effects affecting a creature could be said to be listed as SU special qualities and they don't carry over when one makes an Effigy modeled after a bespelled creature. The RAI would seem to point us this way.

[SangoProduction]

Um. No. An effigy is built based off the basic creature. It doesn't matter if a member of the species you are basing it off of turns out to be special, or under the effects of poison, or whatever. For example, if you built a human effigy, it would have a base 10 in all stats (possibly modified later, but that's the base), because that's the human average for the game.

Generally, just take the monster manual, take the entry for the monster; slap on the template; and you are done.

[unseenmage]

Um. No. An effigy is built based off the basic creature. It doesn't matter if a member of the species you are basing it off of turns out to be special, or under the effects of poison, or whatever. For example, if you built a human effigy, it would have a base 10 in all stats (possibly modified later, but that's the base), because that's the human average for the game.

Generally, just take the monster manual, take the entry for the monster; slap on the template; and you are done.

Am looking for more rules based information than opinions but thanks anyway. That's snarky and I apologize.
Instead lets try, 'But where does it say so? Explicitly.'


I'm investigating it because to me this is an odd spot in the rules and as such is fascinating. Similar too but not the same as a previous weirdness I stumbled on.

The spell Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE) makes an unliving Construct into a Humanoid. And because Humanoids need to eat, sleep, and breathe it is implied, but not explicit that the Greater Humanoid Essence spell makes Constructs alive. If ever so briefly.
This means that you can apply permanent changes to the Construct with other spells, Mineralize Warrior (Un) and Necrotic Cyst (LM). The question is what happens to these effects when the subject is no longer the correct type for the spells that caused the effects to target?
The answer, as it was pointed out to me, lies in Greater Humanoid Essence itself. If spells ceased to function when their subject changed type then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell would cause itself to cease functioning as soon as the target Construct ceased being a Construct and became a Humanoid.

Now I was under the assumption that Templates worked by their own specialized rubric. That the temporary state of a creature's statblock did not affect how Templates could or could not be applied. In reading the text and asking about it this seems not to be the case, only the mass assumption.

Homestly i am on your side in this, I don't want it to work either. But I am curious as to why it could/couldn't; thus this thread.

[Troacctid]

You can't make an effigy with an arbitrary extra 4 AC and say that the base creature had Mage Armor cast on it. Spells only affect the original target. Copying a creature with active spell effects would not duplicate the spell effects, it would only duplicate the base creature.

This is much like how you can Alter Self into a Troglodyte, but you can't Alter Self into a Troglodyte with Overland Flight and Iron Body cast on it. Spells don't work that way.

[Clistenes]

Can an Effigy be constructed from temporarily living things? I misspoke. I'm asking if the Effigy template can be applied to creatures who are only living creatures temporarily.

Say, for example, could one make an Effigy of an Iron Golem who was affected by the Greater Humanoid Essence spell and turned into a Humanoid?

Especially considering the possibility to make Greater Humanoid Essence permanent via other magical shenanigans. (Thoughts on this more than welcome as well.)

I can't see why not. An Effigy has nothing to do with the creature it copies, it's just an automaton covered in fake skin that moves in a similar way.

What you are describing is just a Large or Huge automaton covered in fake skin that is so strong as a Golem. An Effigy will usually be cheaper than a Golem, but lacks it supernatural qualities and attacks.

In short, you would be building a cheaper, less powerful Construct with a fake skin covering.


[S]Edit: Another example would be an animated object which has been affected by Greater Humanoid Essence. Could apply the Effigy Template to that?

About the Animated Object, I'm not sure...you could buy an automaton that has the same stats as an Animated carpet or chariot or table, but, what would be the point of covering it with fake skin? To make them creepier?

[ace rooster]

Certainly I would rule that the effects of greater humanoid essence (and any other spell) could be considered a template with regards to effigy creation. While the type may change to humanoid, there is no way to avoid the augmented (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) subtype, which makes them invalid targets for effigy creation.

[unseenmage]

You can't make an effigy with an arbitrary extra 4 AC and say that the base creature had Mage Armor cast on it. Spells only affect the original target. Copying a creature with active spell effects would not duplicate the spell effects, it would only duplicate the base creature.

This is much like how you can Alter Self into a Troglodyte, but you can't Alter Self into a Troglodyte with Overland Flight and Iron Body cast on it. Spells don't work that way.
Assuming that there is a line of text in the rules somewhere that tells us spells do not work that way, does it mean there is also an accompanying line of rules text telling us that Templates do not work that way?
The two differ on some very fundamental rules levels. Could this be another difference?


Certainly I would rule that the effects of greater humanoid essence (and any other spell) could be considered a template with regards to effigy creation. While the type may change to humanoid, there is no way to avoid the augmented (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) subtype, which makes them invalid targets for effigy creation.
Is this stated anywhere in the rules or is the idea of spells granting a subtype your interpretation?

[ace rooster]

Is this stated anywhere in the rules or is the idea of spells granting a subtype your interpretation?

It is in the text of the augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype). Polymorph, shapechange, and any other spell that changes your type pretty explicitly qualifies as "something happens to change its original type", and so "A creature receives this subtype". Seems pretty crystal to me.

[unseenmage]

It is in the text of the augmented subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype). Polymorph, shapechange, and any other spell that changes your type pretty explicitly qualifies as "something happens to change its original type", and so "A creature receives this subtype". Seems pretty crystal to me.

Thank you. Your citation is appreciated. Guess I'm still more 3.0 minded than I thought.

[unseenmage]

What does this bit from the Augmented Subtype mean?


A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

[Necroticplague]

What does this bit from the Augmented Subtype mean?

Nothing. It's a generality, like "Earth creatures usually have burrow speeds, and most earth creatures can burrow through solid rock. " It merely notes a trend, but doesn't actually provide anything.