Making arrows indestructible?

[Temennigru]

Instead of buying a greatsword, I am trying to get a +3 colossal arrow to beat people up (-4 to hit for being improvised, 3d6 damage) at level 1.
I found out that I could get one of these arrows with a +3 enchantment for ~150 gold. Problem is, arrows break when you hit people with them (which is stupid in my opinion). Is there such an enchantment that I can get to make the arrow not break when I hit someone with it?

[Fitz10019]

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

What you're trying to do is get an ~18000 gp enchantment on a set if 50 missiles, and then just buy one of them, which would be ~360. So you expect a half-price deal on your silliness. You can't craft this yourself at level 1, so don't expect the made-from-scratch crafter's discount.

Try to look past the math and imagine this character and how his silly jumbo arrow will set/ruin the tone of the game for everyone at the table.

If your DM wants you to have this, just ask your DM. What would be better, though, is...

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

IF IF IF this is the kind of game the group wants (Heironeous help us), you don't need a +3 enchantment. Just craft mundane arrows at the size you want, and craft a LOT of them, and don't be upset that they break. The 3d6 you quoted has nothing to do with the enchantment -- it's just from the size.

[daremetoidareyo]

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

What you're trying to do is get an ~18000 gp enchantment on a set if 50 missiles, and then just buy one of them, which would be ~360. So you expect a half-price deal on your silliness. You can't craft this yourself at level 1, so don't expect the made-from-scratch crafter's discount.

Try to look past the math and imagine this character and how his silly jumbo arrow will set/ruin the tone of the game for everyone at the table.

If your DM wants you to have this, just ask your DM. What would be better, though, is...

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

IF IF IF this is the kind of game the group wants (Heironeous help us), you don't need a +3 enchantment. Just craft mundane arrows at the size you want, and craft a LOT of them, and don't be upset that they break. The 3d6 you quoted has nothing to do with the enchantment -- it's just from the size.

This is an excellent response.

also, adamantium don't break so good. So...use that.

[Doctor Awkward]

Creatures suffer a cumulative -2 penalty for using inappropriately sized weapons for every size category smaller they are than their weapon.
Unless your character is colossal, you're going to have a much higher penalty to hit than -4.

[Curmudgeon]

Instead of buying a greatsword, I am trying to get a +3 colossal arrow to beat people up (-4 to hit for being improvised, 3d6 damage) at level 1.
Your scheme fails already. You don't deal damage based on the size of the arrow, but on the size of the bow that propelled it. Pay attention to the Weapons Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), where the damage for arrows is "—". The damage is from the bow. So you need to get a Colossal bow. Then, of course, you need to be of Colossal size yourself to be able to use that bow.

[Temennigru]

Your scheme fails already. You don't deal damage based on the size of the arrow, but on the size of the bow that propelled it. Pay attention to the Weapons Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), where the damage for arrows is "—". The damage is from the bow. So you need to get a Colossal bow. Then, of course, you need to be of Colossal size yourself to be able to use that bow.

Doesn't damage with improvised weapons scale with size?

An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size (critical multiplier ×2)

[Ephemeral_Being]

Doesn't damage with improvised weapons scale with size?

Yes, but it's based on WEIGHT. Not physical size.

Complete Warrior, page 159.

EDIT: Arrows may be a special case. I don't know. But there is an improvised damage table at the back of the book, and were I your DM I would use it. You'd get a d6, maybe a d8 of damage with your Colossal arrow, and at a huge to-hit penalty.

Buy a real weapon.

EDIT: Did you ever consider how big a colossal arrow will actually be? An arrow is (on average) between 1/4 to 1/2 the height of the shooter. Even assuming it's 1/4 the height, a colossal character is 64 feet tall at the smallest. How exactly are you planning on stabbing people with a 16 foot long arrow?

[Temennigru]

EDIT: Did you ever consider how big a colossal arrow will actually be? An arrow is (on average) between 1/4 to 1/2 the height of the shooter. Even assuming it's 1/4 the height, a colossal character is 64 feet tall at the smallest. How exactly are you planning on stabbing people with a 16 foot long arrow?

I was actually thinking more in the lines of "how do you stretch your arm enough to get it out of the quiver?".
My solution to this problem is comical at best:
I stretch my arm beyond the field of view of the camera.
Camera cuts to the top of the quiver. Snow is falling.
My arm appears and grabs an arrow.
The camera cuts to me again, and my arm comes down with the arrow.

To solve the stabbing part is easy: You hold it with both arms and thrust. Single arrows are surprisingly light (2.4 lb)

[elonin]

I'll repeat the comments from before. Stop trying to abuse the game. If a player insisted they wanted a colossal arrow to use as a melee weapon I'd stat it as a lance (or spear) and count it as an improvised weapon.

Magic arrows break after being shot cause they are priced as a one time consumable.

[Vhaidara]

EDIT: Did you ever consider how big a colossal arrow will actually be? An arrow is (on average) between 1/4 to 1/2 the height of the shooter. Even assuming it's 1/4 the height, a colossal character is 64 feet tall at the smallest. How exactly are you planning on stabbing people with a 16 foot long arrow?

Inaccurately, given that he's taking a -4 for improvised and a -8 for wrong size.

Also, this same arrow only weighs a little over 2 pounds. A medium arrow weighs 3/20 (20 arrows = 3lbs), so, following size increase rules
Large = 3/10
Huge = 3/5
Gargantuan = 6/5
Colossal = 12/5

[Temennigru]

I'll repeat the comments from before. Stop trying to abuse the game. If a player insisted they wanted a colossal arrow to use as a melee weapon I'd stat it as a lance (or spear) and count it as an improvised weapon.

Magic arrows break after being shot cause they are priced as a one time consumable.

I plan to use them as very cheap 3d6 consumables.

And part of the fun is trying to break the game (then failing miserably).
That's why some people such as myself like to play high level games.

In 1 game I have a psion that uses psionic force to shoot out up to 8 psionically charged arrows to cause up to 40d6 of damage, even though I hardly ever hit them.

[SiuiS]

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

What you're trying to do is get an ~18000 gp enchantment on a set if 50 missiles, and then just buy one of them, which would be ~360. So you expect a half-price deal on your silliness. You can't craft this yourself at level 1, so don't expect the made-from-scratch crafter's discount.

Try to look past the math and imagine this character and how his silly jumbo arrow will set/ruin the tone of the game for everyone at the table.

If your DM wants you to have this, just ask your DM. What would be better, though, is...

Get a greatsword. Play the game as intended.

IF IF IF this is the kind of game the group wants (Heironeous help us), you don't need a +3 enchantment. Just craft mundane arrows at the size you want, and craft a LOT of them, and don't be upset that they break. The 3d6 you quoted has nothing to do with the enchantment -- it's just from the size.

A giant spear with feathers isn't that strange.


This is an excellent response.

also, adamantium don't break so good. So...use that.

"Arrows" break easily. Like, Adamantine ammo still has the guaranteed break point if fired. Enchanted ammo doesn't (I believe?) but unsure.


Your scheme fails already. You don't deal damage based on the size of the arrow, but on the size of the bow that propelled it. Pay attention to the Weapons Table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#tableWeapons), where the damage for arrows is "—". The damage is from the bow. So you need to get a Colossal bow. Then, of course, you need to be of Colossal size yourself to be able to use that bow.

This is true. But a colossal dagger would end up dealing 5x the damage, and be equivalent to a 5x larger weapon according the DMG.

It's ridiculous, and suboptimal, but not worthless. As ideas go.

[Feint's End]

Inaccurately, given that he's taking a -4 for improvised and a -8 for wrong size.

Also, this same arrow only weighs a little over 2 pounds. A medium arrow weighs 3/20 (20 arrows = 3lbs), so, following size increase rules
Large = 3/10
Huge = 3/5
Gargantuan = 6/5
Colossal = 12/5

I'm fairly sure weight increases quadratical not linear. So it would be (3/20) x 8^(number of size categories above medium). This is not RAW as Keledrath has pointed out below but physically speaking correct.

large = 6/5 (1.2)
huge = 48/5 (9.6)
gargantuan = 384/5 (76.8)
colossal = 3072/5 (614.4)


I also think that this is a bad idea. Are you trying to use it for flavour? Then ask your dm for reflavouring another weapon or letting you use a colossal arrow which doesn't break but has the normal enchantment cost.
If you just want to do that for the cheaper cost then you might want to consider using Shuriken instead and reshape them (although I'm not sure if that's a smart idea -> even if you could shape it into an arrow that arrow would then break). One Morphing Shuriken +1 costs a few hundred gold coins and can change shape to other melee weapons of your choosing. This is however very cheesy and likely to be banned in most games.

edit: I also want to say that some of the feedback was a tad to negative IMHO and some posters seem to jump to conclusions before knowing the whole situation. If you have a problem with what OP said then ask nicely first for clarification and then voice your concerns in a non offensive manner.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Sadly, this doesn't work: arrows have a special clause in their improvised weapon category that's unique--they deal damage based on their SIZE (as a dagger), not their WEIGHT. But you're also unable to wield weapons too many size categories larger than you without hefty penalty.

By RAW, you can use it either as a Colossal Dagger with a -4 penalty to hit for being improvised (and thus suffer all the associated penalties for the vastly over-sized weapon), or use it as a standard improvised weapon, dealing damage based on it's weight (but remaining wield-able by a size Medium character).

Further, the rules are very clear than even a magic type of ammunition is destroyed on a hit (and has a 50% chance of being destroyed on a miss). Neither the melee use clauses not any enchantments I can find avoid this.

[Vhaidara]

I'm fairly sure weight increases quadratical not linear. So it would be (3/20) x 4^(number of size categories above medium)

Nope.
This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weight)

[Feint's End]

Nope.
This column gives the weight of a Medium version of the weapon. Halve this number for Small weapons and double it for Large weapons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weight)

Oh I wasn't referring to D&D size. I mean actual size, where doubling the size (in all 3 dimensions) actually increases the weight eightfold. Oh my mistake ... have to correct it to 8 times. Colossal Arrow is gonna be heavy.

[Tvtyrant]

Instead of buying a greatsword, I am trying to get a +3 colossal arrow to beat people up (-4 to hit for being improvised, 3d6 damage) at level 1.
I found out that I could get one of these arrows with a +3 enchantment for ~150 gold. Problem is, arrows break when you hit people with them (which is stupid in my opinion). Is there such an enchantment that I can get to make the arrow not break when I hit someone with it?

If you wanted to do this with a normal breakung arrow I would go for it. 150GP for an OP one shot is fine. If you want an unbreaking one it woulf cost the same as a +3 greatsword.

[Seffbasilisk]

Aurorum won't fix the breaking issue, but will let you put it back together.
Wildwood does the same thing, but in water or daylight.

[Platymus Pus]

Just abuse mend.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm

[Vhaidara]

Oh I wasn't referring to D&D size. I mean actual size, where doubling the size (in all 3 dimensions) actually increases the weight eightfold. Oh my mistake ... have to correct it to 8 times. Colossal Arrow is gonna be heavy.

You silly person, forgetting that DnD ignores your paltry physics.

[Darrin]

Raptor Arrows (6006 GP, MIC) are not destroyed and can be re-used.

Or make the arrows out of Riverine (Stormwrack). 2000 GP per pound so... about 300 GP per arrow.

[Psyren]

Just abuse mend.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mending.htm

In 3.5, the magic is not restored. So he would be losing 3600gp a pop,

@OP: The thing about cheese is that nobody here can allow it, only your DM can, and then they can figure out a way to make it work.

[Platymus Pus]

In 3.5, the magic is not restored. So he would be losing 3600gp a pop,

@OP: The thing about cheese is that nobody here can allow it, only your DM can, and then they can figure out a way to make it work.

Why have it even be magic? It's just an extra +3 dmg and hit.
Hardly even cheese really. May as well be trying to use a giant key as a weapon.

[Zaq]

Raptor Arrows (6006 GP, MIC) are not destroyed and can be re-used.

Or make the arrows out of Riverine (Stormwrack). 2000 GP per pound so... about 300 GP per arrow.

Raptor Arrows will work, but even Riverine arrows break when they hit a target, because that's how arrows work. They don't break because they're made of flimsy wood (and therefore making them out of something sturdier will solve the problem); they break because they're arrows, and there's a clause that explicitly says that arrows break when they hit. Composition doesn't factor into it.

[Vhaidara]

Why have it even be magic? It's just an extra +3 dmg and hit.
Hardly even cheese really. May as well be trying to use a giant key as a weapon.

You called? (http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs38/i/2009/172/f/d/Oblivion_Keyblade_by_RedShotRonin.jpg)

[Tvtyrant]

Actually even with just breakable arrows this is great with some of the cheaper abilities as one shot weapons. 500GP for dislocator and a DC 17 baleful teleport effect, etc.

[Darrin]

Raptor Arrows will work, but even Riverine arrows break when they hit a target, because that's how arrows work. They don't break because they're made of flimsy wood (and therefore making them out of something sturdier will solve the problem); they break because they're arrows, and there's a clause that explicitly says that arrows break when they hit. Composition doesn't factor into it.

Specific trumps general. Riverine is immune to all damage and most spell effects. The description lists the conditions under which riverine can be destroyed, and "hitting a target as an arrow" is not one of them.

That being said, riverine is not really a good example of the designers thinking a lot about what would happen if this material were introduced to the game.

[Temennigru]

@OP: The thing about cheese is that nobody here can allow it, only your DM can, and then they can figure out a way to make it work.

What's that about cheese?

[Zaq]

Specific trumps general. Riverine is immune to all damage and most spell effects. The description lists the conditions under which riverine can be destroyed, and "hitting a target as an arrow" is not one of them.

That being said, riverine is not really a good example of the designers thinking a lot about what would happen if this material were introduced to the game.

Yeah, but an arrow doesn't break because it takes damage when it hits something. It breaks because the rules say that it breaks when it hits something. That's the problem. Shy of something like the Raptor Arrows, you don't have a specific rule to override the rule of an arrow breaking when it hits something, no matter what you make it out of.

[Temennigru]

Isn't there some kind of up to +3 enchantment that doesn't require me to actually use the weapon?

[Tvtyrant]

Isn't there some kind of up to +3 enchantment that doesn't require me to actually use the weapon?

Look at the elemental summoning equipment from the MIC.

[Vizzerdrix]

Dude. I like running my cleric characters with large sized morningstars, so I gotta support this :smallsmile:
Just remember that an arrow is a piercing weapon, so comparing it to a spear or pike may work better fluff wise and could tie into one heck of a back story to boot!

Now then, you may want to get a few diminutive sized cabers as well for some battlefield control. :smallwink:

[Temennigru]

Here's another question:
Does touching someone with an arrow destroy the arrow?
Maybe a rusting enchantment might be something to think about.

EDIT: Scratch that. I'm warforged so rusting would make me rot.

[Temennigru]

I figured out what I want to do, but it seems like kind of a cheat:
I want to put the enchantment "crazed" on a single arrow so I can rage just by holding it.
Problem is, that enchantment is for melee weapons only.
Can an arrow be considered a melee weapon?

[Curmudgeon]

I figured out what I want to do, but it seems like kind of a cheat:
I want to put the enchantment "crazed" on a single arrow so I can rage just by holding it.
Problem is, that enchantment is for melee weapons only.
Can an arrow be considered a melee weapon?
Nope. You can use it as one in an improvised fashion, but "use" and "being" are different. You'll need to get an actual melee weapon, and pay the actual price. That's because what you want (applying a melee enhancement to ammunition) is a cheat.

[Coidzor]

Doesn't damage with improvised weapons scale with size?

An arrow sized for a colossal creature would do damage as a dagger sized for a colossal sized creature or 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6.

Seeing as how an arrow is a light improvised weapon, however, a Medium sized character could only wield an arrow sized for a Huge creature as a two-handed weapon for 1d8 damage. With Strong-Arm Bracers or Monkey Grip they'd be able to wield an arrow sized for a Gargantuan creature as a two-handed weapon for 2d6 damage. Either way, a worse deal than just using a weapon that's actually sized for them.


Isn't there some kind of up to +3 enchantment that doesn't require me to actually use the weapon?

Smoking from, IIRC, Lords of Darkness gives you concealment and a miss chance and is great for armor spikes or for putting on one's shield spikes or something similar, like a boot blade or arm blade or wrist blade or braid blade.

[Temennigru]

An arrow sized for a colossal creature would do damage as a dagger sized for a colossal sized creature or 1d4 > 1d6 > 1d8 > 2d6 > 3d6.

Seeing as how an arrow is a light improvised weapon, however, a Medium sized character could only wield an arrow sized for a Huge creature as a two-handed weapon for 1d8 damage. With Strong-Arm Bracers or Monkey Grip they'd be able to wield an arrow sized for a Gargantuan creature as a two-handed weapon for 2d6 damage. Either way, a worse deal than just using a weapon that's actually sized for them.



Smoking from, IIRC, Lords of Darkness gives you concealment and a miss chance and is great for armor spikes or for putting on one's shield spikes or something similar, like a boot blade or arm blade or wrist blade or braid blade.

But an arrow is NOT a weapon, as stated above.
These rules are too confusing.
Ima just put a lvl 1 spell enchantment on a medium arrow and be done with it.

[Vizzerdrix]

Why not go for the throwing star build? I think it was a +1 warning, eager throwing star, carried in the mouth.

[Temennigru]

What I did was I picked up an arrow with the warning enchantment.
I use a longsword in one hand and hold the arrow in the other so I can never be flat-footed.
Sounds good enough for 40 gold =P

[Fitz10019]

You mean you custom-ordered 50 of them. Good luck selling the 49 you don't need.

[shaikujin]

Someone already mentioned shurikens.

The cheesy way (and really game breaking) is to do it on shurikens. Then give it the morphing and sizing WSAs. This will allow you to have a weapon that can be re-sized and change into any weapon you like.

Search for morphing sizing shuriken for details.

But if your DM allows this, be prepared that your opponents will have similarly optimized weapons.

[Platymus Pus]

Nope. You can use it as one in an improvised fashion, but "use" and "being" are different. You'll need to get an actual melee weapon, and pay the actual price. That's because what you want (applying a melee enhancement to ammunition) is a cheat.

simply shapeshift it into an arrow.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Someone already mentioned shurikens.

The cheesy way (and really game breaking) is to do it on shurikens. Then give it the morphing and sizing WSAs. This will allow you to have a weapon that can be re-sized and change into any weapon you like.

Search for morphing sizing shuriken for details.

But if your DM allows this, be prepared that your opponents will have similarly optimized weapons.

This still doesn't get around the sizing issue.

A Colossal Arrow can be wielded as a Colossal Dagger, with the breakage rate of ammunition and a -4 improvised weapon penalty. This is per the specific rules for improvised weapons. It also means that a Medium character cannot wield a Colossal Arrow as a weapon, as per the weapon rules.

The alternative is to wield a Colossal Arrow as an Improvised Weapon rather than specifically an Improvised Weapon [Arrow, Melee]. This makes it deal damage based on its weight as is standard for improvised weapons.

Sadly, neither outcome gets you the result you want.

-----

EDIT: This sneaky way WILL allow you to get, say, a +4 Greatsword for a cheap price though, which is probably better than your arrow shennigans. There will still be some debate on whether or not it breaks though: the base weapon is a shuriken (which I believe has a break chance), so, by RAW, the breakage rules probably still apply regardless of the weapon's current form.

[Tvtyrant]

You mean you custom-ordered 50 of them. Good luck selling the 49 you don't need.

Why? Now that his world knows this works I imagine every Orc and Goblin tribe will be doing it within the year. Itvwill revolutionize the industry!

[shaikujin]

My bad, I actually meant simply morphing the shuriken into a collosal sized weapon and use that. Just to get cheap enhancements. Not a collosal sized arrow. (Edit - but I forgot about the rule that if a weapon gets bigger than 2-handed, it cannot be wielded. See the Greater Wallop portion below though).

Regarding it breaking after being morphed, I don't think weapon type specific properties will carry over.

Consider
1) a spiked chain morphed into a shuriken and thrown . It can no longer be used to trip, and will break like a shuriken when thrown, right?

2) Vice versa, a shuriken morphed into a spiked chain can now be used to trip, but cannot be thrown (at least not thrown like a shuriken), and would not break after being used to make a melee attack either.

If 1 is false (resulting in shurikens morphed from spiked chain not breaking), then makiing ammo out of morhped daggers would also give unbreakable ammo. I think.

Collosal weapons are going to be impossible to bring into dungeons though.

A better way is to used the Mighty Wallop spell to upgrade the damage size category of a normal sized weapon.

Then there's also the Scorpion Kama (from MIC) that can change the base damage die of a weapon to what unarmed damage does.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Regarding it breaking after being morphed, I don't think weapon type specific properties will carry over.

Weapon-specific qualities (tripping, throwing, slashing, etc) won't carry into a new form, no. But breaking is different, I think: it's dependent on a different clause associated with being ammunition, not being a specific weapon or type of weapon. A morphing Shuriken is still a Shuriken at the end of the day: if dispelled, for example. So it could easily be argued that it's technically ammunition, even in a different form.

So it's debatable.

[Temennigru]

This still doesn't get around the sizing issue.

A Colossal Arrow can be wielded as a Colossal Dagger, with the breakage rate of ammunition and a -4 improvised weapon penalty. This is per the specific rules for improvised weapons. It also means that a Medium character cannot wield a Colossal Arrow as a weapon, as per the weapon rules.

The alternative is to wield a Colossal Arrow as an Improvised Weapon rather than specifically an Improvised Weapon [Arrow, Melee]. This makes it deal damage based on its weight as is standard for improvised weapons.

Sadly, neither outcome gets you the result you want.

-----

EDIT: This sneaky way WILL allow you to get, say, a +4 Greatsword for a cheap price though, which is probably better than your arrow shennigans. There will still be some debate on whether or not it breaks though: the base weapon is a shuriken (which I believe has a break chance), so, by RAW, the breakage rules probably still apply regardless of the weapon's current form.

A colossal arrow DEALS DAMAGE as a colossal dagger.


An arrow used as a melee weapon is treated as a light improvised weapon (-4 penalty on attack rolls) and deals damage as a dagger of its size

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

A colossal arrow DEALS DAMAGE as a colossal dagger.

Yes. But it's still a colossal arrow, and thus is wielded as a colossal weapon.

Basically, D&D weapons are strange. They function as weapons when wielded as weapons. But, due to the improvised weapon rules, you can also use them as improvised weapons based on weight.

So you have a choice: wield what the game knows as a colossal arrow, which is a light, one-handed colossal weapon used in a way that fits the rules for arrows as melee weapons, or wield an object the same size / shape / weight as a colossal arrow as an improvised weapon, which will deal damage according to its default weight.

You can't, unfortunately, have it both ways. RAW is funny like that.

[daremetoidareyo]

Yes. But it's still a colossal arrow, and thus is wielded as a colossal weapon.

Basically, D&D weapons are strange. They function as weapons when wielded as weapons. But, due to the improvised weapon rules, you can also use them as improvised weapons based on weight.

So you have a choice: wield what the game knows as a colossal arrow, which is a light, one-handed colossal weapon used in a way that fits the rules for arrows as melee weapons, or wield an object the same size / shape / weight as a colossal arrow as an improvised weapon, which will deal damage according to its default weight.

You can't, unfortunately, have it both ways. RAW is funny like that.



While true, the DM can just say no. This is like buggy code, when it's discovered by playtest, the developer is supposed to patch it up. One lever of detection and patching is the DM: for better or for worse. And most, (not all) of the time, you want a DM who patches buggy code, it breaks immersion for many (not all). I say this as a person who likes silly optimization outcomes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

While true, the DM can just say no. This is like buggy code, when it's discovered by playtest, the developer is supposed to patch it up. One lever of detection and patching is the DM: for better or for worse. And most, (not all) of the time, you want a DM who patches buggy code, it breaks immersion for many (not all). I say this as a person who likes silly optimization outcomes.

Well, yes. But the whole point of this thread is abusing a RAW loophole in how arrows and ammunition work to get an early-access enormous magic weapon for a fraction of a reasonable cost, so I feel RAW is appropriate here. :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Weapon-specific qualities (tripping, throwing, slashing, etc) won't carry into a new form, no. But breaking is different, I think: it's dependent on a different clause associated with being ammunition, not being a specific weapon or type of weapon. A morphing Shuriken is still a Shuriken at the end of the day: if dispelled, for example. So it could easily be argued that it's technically ammunition, even in a different form.

So it's debatable.

Alternatively, it's too much of a headache for too little benefit to the game, so don't muck about with it unless the DM has given you explicit permission and already knows how they want to roll with it.

Because if you try to muck about with fiddly rules when the DM's not on board that's a good way to have an unpleasant surprise.

[P.F.]

Alternatively, it's too much of a headache for too little benefit to the game, so don't muck about with it unless the DM has given you explicit permission and already knows how they want to roll with it.

Because if you try to muck about with fiddly rules when the DM's not on board that's a good way to have an unpleasant surprise.

A medium arrow is about 3 feet long. Each size category doubles its size, so a colossal arrow is 48 feet long. Talk about a reach weapon!

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alternatively, it's too much of a headache for too little benefit to the game, so don't muck about with it unless the DM has given you explicit permission and already knows how they want to roll with it.

Because if you try to muck about with fiddly rules when the DM's not on board that's a good way to have an unpleasant surprise.

Definitely agreed. Hence why I'm not a proponent of this "using arrow shenanigans to circumvent magic item cost" stuff in the first place. :smalltongue: