Item of Legacy/Item Familiar

[adonis53]

My DM has allowed me to take an item familiar and item of legacy as the same item, and I wanted help building it. I am going sorcerer 3/Incantatrix 2 at my current level(yes I fit the requirements, a custom race that has sorcerer level 4). What original enchantment should I get on the item and what abilities afterwards? I have 22500 gold to spend on magic items and he said maximum of 1/3 or 1/2 on one item. So if you want to suggest other useful items as well, be my guest. :)

[Red Fel]

Is your DM using a homebrewed Legacy Item fix, or is he using the one in the book?

Because I have to tell you, the ones in the book hurt more than they help. It's generally easier to get an ordinary magic item with the specific enhancements you want than it is to pick from the Legacy Item selections and have to pay the associated costs. Those costs just aren't generally worth it.

As an aside, the "original enchantment" on the item is +1. Period. The rules in Weapons of Legacy specify that the starting magic item must be a +1, but cannot be more than that, and cannot have a value greater than 4,000.

So, let's assume you are getting a Legacy Weapon as an Item Familiar. I'll be honest, most of the Legacy Abilities are ones you can easily duplicate with spells. So let's look specifically at those which provide a utility, ideally a continuous one. For example, the Comprehend Languages, Deflection, Lightbringer, Resistance, Telekinetic, and Unceasing Servant abilities on Menu A are great, and obviously Lesser Metamagic is valuable. From Menu B, Ability Enhancement (you're a Sorcerer, put it in Cha) is an obvious choice; Obscuring Mist is fantastic, and Speed Enhancement is useful. From Menu C, Lesser Empower Spell, Levitate, Spider Climb and Water Breathing are helpful. From Menu D, Continual Wind, Cunning, Darkvision, Metamagic (obviously). And so on.

Again, you could do better. Sure, slapping free Metamagics onto every slot is a nice touch, but you'll note that a lot of these abilities can be duplicated, quite effectively, by magic items. Further, many of them can be duplicated by the various abilities you can assign to an Item Familiar; similarly, the Intelligent Legacy abilities are duplicated by the Item Familiar's ability to become sapient and gain Intelligent Item powers on its own.

Frankly, if you really want a powerful item, go with a Runestaff and take the Ancestral Relic feat. The item, Runestaff, has a list of spells in it; you can burn one of your own slots to cast from the staff instead. In other words, a bunch of free additions to your "spells known" list. Here's the kicker. The Ancestral Relic feat allows you to sacrifice loot in a hallowed location to upgrade your Ancestral Relic, in this case the Runestaff. The time it takes to upgrade is based upon the change in value. Here's where the cheese comes in: If you're not actually increasing the value in the Ancestral Relic, but merely swapping around a bunch of equivalent values, it takes no time. Changing the spells in the Runestaff doesn't increase its value. Ergo, you can find a hallowed location, whip out your Ancestral Relic Runestaff, and pick whatever spells you think will be useful. You now have whatever spells you might want.

Sorcerers have a limited spell list, you say?

[adonis53]

He is using the book, and I don't even know about the homebrew "fix".
Nice ideas, but I wanted to go the item familiar route to get bonuses to exp, spellcraft checks(Incantatrix), and the useful abilities as well. Could I do the same thing with the staff easily?

Mechanically, how does it let you replace the spells in the staff?

Also, if I was to get one, how do I afford the more useful ones? Because as-is, the ones I could afford would only be able to hold 4 spells or so on average. Unless the ancestral relic feat would allow me to add an unlimited amount, then I don't see it being as beneficial.

[adonis53]

Frankly, if you really want a powerful item, go with a Runestaff and take the Ancestral Relic feat. The item, Runestaff, has a list of spells in it; you can burn one of your own slots to cast from the staff instead. In other words, a bunch of free additions to your "spells known" list. Here's the kicker. The Ancestral Relic feat allows you to sacrifice loot in a hallowed location to upgrade your Ancestral Relic, in this case the Runestaff. The time it takes to upgrade is based upon the change in value. Here's where the cheese comes in: If you're not actually increasing the value in the Ancestral Relic, but merely swapping around a bunch of equivalent values, it takes no time. Changing the spells in the Runestaff doesn't increase its value. Ergo, you can find a hallowed location, whip out your Ancestral Relic Runestaff, and pick whatever spells you think will be useful. You now have whatever spells you might want.


How does it work mechanically? I don't see how you are able to switch out the spells.

[Red Fel]

How does it work mechanically? I don't see how you are able to switch out the spells.

You are, in effect, changing a custom Runestaff (with a fixed list of spells) into a different custom Runestaff (with a different list of spells) of equivalent value. It would be like changing a +1 Flaming Defending Longsword into a +1 Ghost Touch Merciful Longsword. Both are Longswords of identical value, but you have an entirely different set of abilities on one than on the other.

Further, the Ancestral Relic feat allows you to add value to the weapon as you level, by sacrificing items. A Runestaff with more spells is more valuable, and therefore more could be added to it.

Note that doing this with an Ancestral Relic Runestaff would still require a hallowed location, and could potentially have the DM throwing books at your head. It's more than a bit cheesy.

Yes, you could make an Ancestral Relic Runestaff into an Item Familiar, I think. I don't believe either feat prevents you from using the other.

Lastly, with respect to Weapon of Legacy fixes, there have been many posted. Google is your friend. Find one you think is reasonable, and share it with your DM.

[adonis53]

You are, in effect, changing a custom Runestaff (with a fixed list of spells) into a different custom Runestaff (with a different list of spells) of equivalent value. It would be like changing a +1 Flaming Defending Longsword into a +1 Ghost Touch Merciful Longsword. Both are Longswords of identical value, but you have an entirely different set of abilities on one than on the other.

Further, the Ancestral Relic feat allows you to add value to the weapon as you level, by sacrificing items. A Runestaff with more spells is more valuable, and therefore more could be added to it.


Okay thank you, that's what I needed to know, and one more thing: If I add spells, would I just have to find the price of a runestaff with the same amount of spells? If I added more spells than any other runestaff, how would the dm price it?

[Red Fel]

Okay thank you, that's what I needed to know, and one more thing: If I add spells, would I just have to find the price of a runestaff with the same amount of spells? If I added more spells than any other runestaff, how would the dm price it?

In the Magic Item Compendium, it gives you the relevant rules for pricing a Runestaff:
To set the price of a runestaff, multiply the level of the highest-level spell in the runestaff by itself, then by 400 gp. For each additional spell in the runestaff, square that spell’s level and multiply by 200 gp. Add the values together to find the final price of the runestaff. If a spell can be used less than three times per day, reduce the gp multiplier for that spell by 100 per use below three (or 50 per use below three, for spells after the first).

So, let's say you have a Runestaff with a 4th-level spell, a 3rd-level spell, and a 1st-level spell (which is the example in the book). The cost of such a Runestaff is 42x400 + 32x200 +12x200, or 6,400+1,800+200, or 8,400. This is the same cost regardless which 4th-level, 3rd-level, or 1st-level spells are present in the Runestaff. (Note that you can decrease the cost by limiting their per-day uses. Let's not.)

If you then wanted to "upgrade" the staff via Ancestral Relic, you would calculate the new cost, subtract the old, and sacrifice the difference. Observe. Let's say we wanted to take the staff above and upgrade it into a Runestaff that has two 4th-level spells and one 3rd-level spell. The cost of such a Runestaff would be 42x400 + 42x200 + 32x200, or 6,400+3,200+1,800, or 11,400. We would subtract the prior value (8,400) from the present value (11,400), which would leave us a difference of 3,000. That means you would need to sacrifice 3,000 gp worth of goods, and spend 3 days, to upgrade the Runestaff. After that, however, as long as you did not increase the value of the Runestaff, you could change which spells are on it, what levels they are, even what quantity of spells you have, via the Ancestral Relic feat.

[adonis53]

In the Magic Item Compendium, it gives you the relevant rules for pricing a Runestaff:

So, let's say you have a Runestaff with a 4th-level spell, a 3rd-level spell, and a 1st-level spell (which is the example in the book). The cost of such a Runestaff is 42x400 + 32x200 +12x200, or 6,400+1,800+200, or 8,400. This is the same cost regardless which 4th-level, 3rd-level, or 1st-level spells are present in the Runestaff. (Note that you can decrease the cost by limiting their per-day uses. Let's not.)

If you then wanted to "upgrade" the staff via Ancestral Relic, you would calculate the new cost, subtract the old, and sacrifice the difference. Observe. Let's say we wanted to take the staff above and upgrade it into a Runestaff that has two 4th-level spells and one 3rd-level spell. The cost of such a Runestaff would be 42x400 + 42x200 + 32x200, or 6,400+3,200+1,800, or 11,400. We would subtract the prior value (8,400) from the present value (11,400), which would leave us a difference of 3,000. That means you would need to sacrifice 3,000 gp worth of goods, and spend 3 days, to upgrade the Runestaff. After that, however, as long as you did not increase the value of the Runestaff, you could change which spells are on it, what levels they are, even what quantity of spells you have, via the Ancestral Relic feat.

Thanks again. :) Any other items I should buy?

[Red Fel]

Thanks again. :) Any other items I should buy?

These two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) lists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-%28Equipment-Handbook%29) are pretty good go-to options.