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Rubberband_Man
2015-03-19, 10:27 PM
Hello Playground,

So as you may or may not know, there's a dnd supplement book called Weapons of Legacy. Its a cool resource with a lot of neat ideas and rules for making legendary weapons that are accessible at all levels. It's a very interesting resource and a cool book in general with a bunch of items you should definitely check out.

That being said, there are some parts of this book I find head-in-buttocks stupid

More specifically, I find the system for creating Legacy Items to be entirely contrived and haphazard. If you are unfamiliar with Legacy Items allow me to break it down...

Essentially a Legacy Item is a legendary item that becomes more powerful as the character using it levels up. Most Legacy Items begin granting abilities at level 5 and continue to level 20, but this is not always the case. This allows for a character of almost any level to pick up a Legacy Item. They have cool special abilities and a TON of flavor behind them. However, in order to unlock these abilities, the player must also pay a price. This price comes in three forms: Rituals, Ritual costs, and Legacy Penalties.

Special Legacy Rituals must be performed at certain levels to continue to unlock the item's potential. Rituals range widely in the actual task to be performed; they can be killing a specific enemy, swearing an oath of fealty to a certain person or cause, it can be making a donation to charity or stealing from the poor. There are three levels of ritual; least, lesser, and greater. The player typically performs the rituals at levels 5, 11, and 17, respectively, but these may vary depending on the item. Once a ritual has been performed, the player receives all the benefits of the item that his level allows. Upon reaching the level where the next ritual must be performed, the player receives no more benefits until he has performed the ritual. As sort of an addendum to the Rituals themselves, there are associated ritual costs to each ritual. Once the actual ritual has been performed, the player must then sacrifice a certain amount of wealth and perform a ritual to attune himself to the item. Each ritual has an associated cost and the player cannot receive the benefits of the item until he has payed it. Finally there are Legacy Penalties. The idea here is that in order to balance out the unbridled power of the legacy items, wielding the items is slightly detrimental to the wielder in other ways. This takes the form of penalties to BAB, HP, saving throws, caster level, and even the loss of spell slots and skill points. Depending on who the item is intended for, the penalties will be different. For instance, an axe intended for a barbarian would not have penalties to caster level.

These penalties are typically the reason that Legacy Items are seen as not worth it. The Rituals are usually flavorful and simple enough, if sometimes obtuse. The ritual costs are usually appropriate for their level, but they sometimes get a bit pricey. The biggest reason that Legacy items arent worth it is easily the penalties. There are tables in the book where a 20th level character who has performed all the rituals and payed the costs takes a -2 on all attacks, a -3 on all saves, and permanently loses 16 HP. The penalties usually far outweigh the benefits of the items.

And so we arrive at my main complaint with this book; the rules for creating custom legacy items.

This is purely speculation, but from reading the book it is pretty apparent as to what happened during its writing. Some of the developers at WotC had a bunch of cool ideas for awesome weapons with detailed backstory and awesome abilities. They began to write the book, implementing the system where items gain abilities as the player grows. They made the items they had thought up into usable items and tried to balance them so the items were each individually balanced. Near the end, however, someone realized "Oh no! We havent made a system to make custom items!" At this point, the devs copied and pasted every individual ability that each of the premade items had into the back of the book and said "pick from these abilities and quit complaining." As a result, there is a paltry selection of premade abilities with little room for experimentation. Well, after many hours of poring over this book, I believe I've extrapolated a method to the madness.

The rules for creating custom items goes like this: After determining which table of penalties you are going to use and deciding upon Legacy Rituals, you then begin to choose what abilities the item has. The abilities in the book are alphabetically ranked from A to I, A being the weakest abilities and I being the strongest. A, B, and C level abilities are unlocked when the Least Ritual is performed and its cost paid. D, E, and F level abilities are associated with the Lesser Ritual, and G, H, and I are associated with the Greater Ritual. A standard, 15 level legacy item would begin with one level A ability granted at each level from 5 to 10, one D level ability at levels 11 through 16, and one G level ability at levels 17 through 20. These abilities can be swapped out as follows:

1 B = 2 A
1 C = 3 A

1 E = 2 D
1 F = 3 D

1 H = 2 G
1 I = 3 G

And so many weak abilities may be traded for a few strong ones. However, the selection of abilities is rather limited and doesn't allow for much expansion.

I have created a system based on the one in Weapons of Legacy where spells may be abilities may be implemented by mimicking spell effects. I created these lists by looking at the abilities already in the book and categorizing them based on their spell level, kind of effect and several other factors. In a sense, this is a broad translation of the tables already in place.

NOTE: There are some abilities in the book that mimic class features, feats, and there are even some completely new abilities with no precedent, but for the large majority most of the abilities are based on spells. I plan on finding a way to implement a table of such abilities, but for now they are simply addendums to the spells.

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-19, 10:28 PM
Buff: Provides direct bonuses or penalties to attacks, abilities, skills, checks, or other such rolls (Bull’s strength, Mage armor, Haste, Bestow Curse, etc)
Heal: Directly heals hp or removes penalties. (Cure spells, heal, restoration, remove curse etc.)
Damage: More accurately, attack spells. Deal damage, drain abilities, or otherwise effect enemies in an aggressive manner. (Magic missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Acid arrow, Enervation, etc.)
Status Effect: Creates a physical effect that does not directly influence a creature’s statistics. Can be useful in and out of combat. (Invisibility, Feather Fall, Obscuring mist, Darkness, Crushing Hand, Wall of Iron, Cause Fear etc.)
Summon: Summons a creature to either fight for you or to perform a task, willingly or unwillingly. (Summon Monster, Summon Nature’s Ally, Planar Ally, Gate, Animate Dead)
Utility: Typically not useful in combat. Used to overcome obstacles or navigate difficult situations. (Floating Disk, Detect magic, Endure Elements, Knock, Dancing Lights, Knock, etc.)

Reading the tables:
Uses/day - the number of times that ability may be used in a day. May be continuous or at will.
Spell level - the level of the spell. Many of the spells in the book are sor/wiz spells, but a good deal of them are cleric and druid spells as well. When choosing the spell, choose from any spell list whose caster has full spellcasting progression (e.g. gains the ability to cast a higher level spell at every other level. See: Wizard, Cleric, Druid)
Category - the spells basic function. See the definitions above.
Action - the action required to use the ability
Su/Sp - whether the ability is treated as a supernatural or spell-like ability

Su - supernatural ability
Sp - Spell-like ability
* - as the spell
0/0/0 - three 0-level spells

A-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


At will
0/0/0
*
Utility
*
Su


Continuous
0
Self
Buff
-
Su


5/day
1
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


Continuous
1
Self
Utility
-
Su


3/day
1
*
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
1
Self
Heal
Swift
Sp


1/day
1
Self
Buff
*
Sp


3/day
1
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
2
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
2
*
Summon
*
Sp


1/day
2
Self
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
2
*
Utility
*
Sp


1/day
2
Self
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
2
Self
Status Effect
*
Su


1/day
2
*
Utility
*
Su



Armor/Shield Enhancement +1, max +2
Creature Compass - new ability, read the book
Deflection Bonus +1
Intelligent Legacy, Minor
3/day Metamagic, Lesser, +1 spell slot
Mount
Skill +5
Speed +5
Weapon Enhancement +1



B-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


5/day
1
*
Buff
swift
Sp


At will
1
*
Utility
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
2
Self
Heal
Swift
Sp


3/day
2
*
Attack
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Utility
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Heal
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Utility
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Summon
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Buff
*
Sp

Ability Enhancement +2
Armor/Shield Enhancement +1, max +3
Deflection +1, max +2
Energy Resistance, least
Intelligent Legacy
Resistance +1, max +3
Speed +10
Weapon Enhancement +1, max +2





C-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


At will
2
*
Utility
*
Su


At will
2
*
Attack
*
Sp


2/day
3
*
Utility
*
Su


2/day
3
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
3
Self
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
3
Self
Buff
*
Su


2/day
3
*
Buff
*
Sp


2/day
3
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


Continuous
3
Self
Utility
*
Su




Armor/Shield enhancement bonus


Current
Increase


+2 or less
+2


+3 to +5
+1



Constant Companion, Least
Deflection +1, max +3
3/day Metamagic, lesser +2 spell slots




D-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


At will
1
*
Attack
*
Sp


Continuous
1
-
Utility
-
Su


3/day
1
*
Attack
*
Sp


3/day
2
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


Continuous
2
-
Buff
-
Su


At will
2
*
Status Effect
*
Su


At will
2
*
Utility
*
Su


At will
2
*
Status Effect
*
Su


Continuous
2
Self
Utility
-
Su


5/day
2
*
Summon
*
Sp


5/day
2
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


At will
3
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
3
*
Utility
*
Su


1/day
3
*
Status Effect
*
Su


5/day
3
Self
Buff
*
Su


3/day
3
*
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
4
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
4
*
Summon
*
Sp



Cunning
Intelligent Legacy, Major
3/day Metamagic, +1 spell slot
Weapon Enhancement +1, max +3



E-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


At will
2
*
Status Effect
*
Su


Continuous
2
-
Status Effect
-
Su


3/day
3
*
Buff
*
Sp


3/day
3
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
4
*
Status Effect
*
Su


1/day
5
*
Summon
*
Su


1/day
5
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
5
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
5
Self
Heal
Swift
Sp



Ability Enhancement +4

Armor/Shield Enhancement


Current
Increase


+2 or less
3


+3 to +4
2


+5 to +9
1



Deflection +1, max +5
Energy Resistance, Lesser
3/day Metamagic lesser, +3 spell slots
Skill Enhancement +10
Spell Storing, Minor

Weapon Enhancement


Current
Increase


+1 or less
2


+2 to +4
1






F-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


Continuous
2
Self
Buff
-
Su


Continuous
3
-
Summon
-
Su


3/day
4
*
Heal
*
Sp


2/day
4
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


2/day
4
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
5
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Utility
*
Su


1/day
6
*
Summon
*
Su



Armor/shield enhancement


Current
Increase


+1 or less
4


+2 to +3
3


+4 to +6
2


+7 to +9
1




Evasion
1/day metamagic +3 spell level
3/day metamagic, greater, +1 spell level
Poison immunity

Weapon enhancement


+3 or less
2


+4 to +6
1



1 time wish
Wizardry I (as ring of Wizardry I)
X-ray vision (as ring of X-ray vision)


G-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


3/day
4
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


3/day
4
*
Utility
*
Sp


3/day
4
*
Attack
*
Sp


2/day
4
Self
Status Effect
*
Su


2/day
5
*
Utility
*
Sp


2/day
5
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
5
Self
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
6
Self
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Summon
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Utility
*
Sp


1/day
7
*
Status Effect
*
Sp



Armor/shield enhancement


Current
Increase


+2 or less
5


+3
4


+4 to +5
3


+6 or higher
2 (max +10)




3/day Metamagic, +2 spell slots
Mindarmor - as the item enhancement except +3 and continuous
3/day Metamagic, lesser, +4 spell slots
Skill +15

Weapon enhancement


Current
Increase


+2 or less
3


+3 to +5
2


+6 to +9
1



Wizardry II (as ring of wizardry II)




H-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


10/day
3
Self
Buff
Swift
Su


3/day
6
*
Heal
*
Sp


1/day
6
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
6
Self
Heal
Swift
Sp


2/day
7
*
Attack
*
Sp


2/day
7
*
Summon
*
Sp


1/day
7
Self
Utility
*
Su


1/day
7
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
8
*
Attack
*
Sp


1/day
8
self
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
8
Self
Buff
*
Su


1/day
8
*
Status
*
Sp


Armor/Shield Enhancement


Current
Increase


+4 or less
5


+5 or more
4 (max +10)



Energy resistance 30
3/day metamagic, +3 spell slots
Spell storing - as ring of spell storing
Weapon enhancement


Current
Increase


+1 or less
5


+2
4


+3 to +5
3


+6 to +8
2


+9
1



Two wishes
Wizardry III (as ring of wizardry III)



I-LEVEL ABILITIES


Uses/day
Spell Level
Target
Category
Action
Su/Sp


Continuous
5
*
Summon
-
Su


3/day
6
*
Heal
*
Sp


2/day
8
*
Attack
*
Sp


2/day
8
*
Buff
*
Sp


1/day
9
*
Summon
*
Sp


1/day
9
*
Utility
*
Sp


1/day
9
*
Status Effect
*
Sp


1/day
9
*
Attack
*
Sp



3/day metamagic, greater, +2 spell slots
3/day metamagic, +4 spell slots
Regeneration - as ring of regeneration
Three wishes
Wizardry IV - as ring of Wizardry IV
Weapon enhancement


Current
Increase


+1 or less
6


+2 to +3
5


+4 to +5
4


+6 to +7
3


+8
2


+9
1

JyP
2015-03-20, 04:35 AM
These penalties are typically the reason that Legacy Items are seen as not worth it. The Rituals are usually flavorful and simple enough, if sometimes obtuse. The ritual costs are usually appropriate for their level, but they sometimes get a bit pricey. The biggest reason that Legacy items arent worth it is easily the penalties. There are tables in the book where a 20th level character who has performed all the rituals and payed the costs takes a -2 on all attacks, a -3 on all saves, and permanently loses 16 HP. The penalties usually far outweigh the benefits of the items.
From my point of view, a very specific point is not cleared for Weapons of Legacies / Ancestral Relic feat / Classes like Kensai which allow to upgrade your weapon.

=> how does this interact with average wealth per level for PCs. Is a Weapon of Legacy "free" and outside permitted wealth ? Are penalties a way to force PCs to spend a part of their wealth anyway even if the items are free ?

for your example : -3 on saves can be balanced by a cloak of protection at 9000 gp, and -2 on attacks by a belt of giant strength or gloves of dexterity for 16000 gp, and hp by an amulet of health at 4000 or 16000 gp - for a combined cost of 41000 gp - which is way lower than the real cost of an item unlocked up to 20th level.

Sian
2015-03-20, 08:25 AM
stupid question, but do you have a good reason why you post it in this forum instead of in the homebrew forum?

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-20, 09:24 AM
stupid question, but do you have a good reason why you post it in this forum instead of in the homebrew forum?

Sorry, I'm pretty new to the forums. Is there a way to move it?

Threadnaught
2015-03-20, 11:25 AM
Sorry, I'm pretty new to the forums. Is there a way to move it?

You can just request that the mods move it.


A request has already been made on your behalf, so you only have to wait. I'm curious as to what the additional abilities will look like and what you plan to do about abilities that aren't completely replicated by Spells, if anything.

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-20, 02:19 PM
From my point of view, a very specific point is not cleared for Weapons of Legacies / Ancestral Relic feat / Classes like Kensai which allow to upgrade your weapon.

=> how does this interact with average wealth per level for PCs. Is a Weapon of Legacy "free" and outside permitted wealth ? Are penalties a way to force PCs to spend a part of their wealth anyway even if the items are free ?

for your example : -3 on saves can be balanced by a cloak of protection at 9000 gp, and -2 on attacks by a belt of giant strength or gloves of dexterity for 16000 gp, and hp by an amulet of health at 4000 or 16000 gp - for a combined cost of 41000 gp - which is way lower than the real cost of an item unlocked up to 20th level.

As for this, Legacy Items are intended to be on a level with artifacts. They are not something a character should be able to buy or purchase. With some fudging, a DM could theoretically allow a character with ancestral relic and the item tightly woven into your backstory to have a legacy item and use it as his ancestral relic or as a kensai weapon. However, ancestral relic and kensai do not have the scope that legacy weapons have. Some of the abilities in the book imitate spells, class features, feats, and even other magic items. Kensai and ancestral relic basically only add to the weapons enhancement bonus.

A standard legacy item with abilities from level 5 to 20 costs a great deal after each ritual. Around 2k at 5th level, around 11k at 11th level, and around 40k at 20th level. Removing the penalties by getting stat boosting items, as you suggest, would cost 95,000 gp. And that would be to have a character that simply isnt taking any penalties for using legacy abilities.

Threadnaught
2015-03-20, 02:28 PM
A standard legacy item with abilities from level 5 to 20 costs a great deal after each ritual. Around 2k at 5th level, around 11k at 11th level, and around 40k at 20th level. Removing the penalties by getting stat boosting items, as you suggest, would cost 95,000 gp. And that would be to have a character that simply isnt taking any penalties for using legacy abilities.

However, if you're good at creating builds, it is possible to build an item that gives more than it takes.


Alright, so once you're done with A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and I abilities, do you plan on going Epic with Y and Z abilities?

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-20, 02:48 PM
However, if you're good at creating builds, it is possible to build an item that gives more than it takes.


Alright, so once you're done with A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and I abilities, do you plan on going Epic with Y and Z abilities?

In my opinion, it is nearly impossible to do that as it stands currently in the book. The selection is far too slim to do anything really worth it.Hence the reason I broadened it up with these new tables.


As for epic abilities, I certainly could incorporate them into this new structure pretty easily. However, my next priority is finding a way to incorporate abilities into these tables that are not spells, but rather imitate items and feats and such.

Metahuman1
2015-03-20, 03:02 PM
From my point of view, a very specific point is not cleared for Weapons of Legacies / Ancestral Relic feat / Classes like Kensai which allow to upgrade your weapon.

=> how does this interact with average wealth per level for PCs. Is a Weapon of Legacy "free" and outside permitted wealth ? Are penalties a way to force PCs to spend a part of their wealth anyway even if the items are free ?

for your example : -3 on saves can be balanced by a cloak of protection at 9000 gp, and -2 on attacks by a belt of giant strength or gloves of dexterity for 16000 gp, and hp by an amulet of health at 4000 or 16000 gp - for a combined cost of 41000 gp - which is way lower than the real cost of an item unlocked up to 20th level.

You appear to have over looked something.

At a certain level, the system assumes you will have these things, AND have a weapon with X-amount of magic ability, AND not have the penalty's. And it's math is geared as such.

Also, weapons are VASTLY over-priced in this system anyway, so in theory just throwing the none casters a way to bypass that cost early on can do nothing but HELP system balance as long as then docking them for penalty's that require a LOT of work and usually DM fiat to get around is not a factor.

Thus, reworking custom legacy weapons to be easier to do and to not have these penalty's is a wonderful and worthy endeavor.

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-20, 06:10 PM
Thus, reworking custom legacy weapons to be easier to do and to not have these penalty's is a wonderful and worthy endeavor.

Oh stop it, you :smallredface:

Threadnaught
2015-03-20, 07:06 PM
In my opinion, it is nearly impossible to do that as it stands currently in the book. The selection is far too slim to do anything really worth it.Hence the reason I broadened it up with these new tables.

Yeah I said possible, not easy. Your version, if you manage to get around to completing everything, should be far more convenient.


However, my next priority is finding a way to incorporate abilities into these tables that are not spells, but rather imitate items and feats and such.

Sweet, like WoL should be doing already.


Edit: Your OP is going to become rather full, very quickly. I suggest, instead of merely having the thread moved, you restart it in the Homebrew forum and reserve the first four replies for Least, Lesser, Greater and Epic Abilities, then link us before this gets locked.

Rubberband_Man
2015-03-21, 12:28 PM
Here's the new thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405003-Making-Legacy-Items-Worth-It-Homebrew-Legacy-Item-Creation-System&p=18992071#post18992071