How useful is Craft Contingent Spell feat in a real campaign?

[SinsI]

Whenever there is a discussion about optimized wizard, people tend to make him have at least 2-3 of Contingent spells conveniently active. And those are usually the Big Guns like Time Stop.

But as written, it has one very significant downside: it takes 1 day for each thousand in base cost (100*spell level * caster level). Which means 9th level spell like Time Stop would take half a month of downtime.

Wouldn't in a normal play there be a bit more than 2 threats per month?

Have you ever used Craft Contingent Spell or seen it used in actual campaign? At least outside initial active spells that might be granted by DM at the start of it.

[With a box]

I think it's worth a feat just to have a contingent revivify.
3x5x100 = 1500( a day and half)
But all craft feat has same problem.

[SinsI]

I think it's worth a feat just to have a contingent revivify.
3x5x100 = 1500( a day and half)
But all craft feat has same problem.

If you have Craft Contingent Spell you are at least level 11. CR 11 challenges should include at least a few monsters that use Dispel Magic or similar abilities on a regular basis. DC 16 won't stand against them...

[With a box]

If you have Craft Contingent Spell you are at least level 11. CR 11 challenges should include at least a few monsters that use Dispel Magic or similar abilities on a regular basis. DC 16 won't stand against them...
so? it's a magic item. it need to be targeted dispel magic on that item, and it only just suppressed for 1d4 round.
make it a ring and wear glove on it, so your enemy can't get LoE to target it.

and for crafting time, we always can stop it, crush whoever attact him, and continue crafting next day.

[SinsI]

so? it's a magic item. it need to be targeted dispel magic on that item, and it only just suppressed for 1d4 round.
make it a ring and wear glove on it, so your enemy can't get LoE to target it.Nope, it is lost permanently, and it is the bearer that is the target - not the spell effect:

If the bearer of contingent spell is the target of Dispel Magic, the contingent spell might be permanently dispelled (but not triggered), as if it were an active spell on the target creature

[Kraken]

I agree that actual use of craft contingent spell is overstated, but I wouldn't worry about dispelling of all things. Due to the CL caps of dispel magic and its variants, dispelling generally favors the defender. You can do things to boost dispel checks, but casters are already likely to be boosting their CL because doing so has a myriad of uses. Boosting dispel checks doesn't provide any ancillary benefits, so it's a tougher choice to make in terms of your allocation of build resources, due to its narrow utility. Even if you do boost dispel checks, there are fewer ways to boost dispel checks than there are ways to boost CL, so it's an arms race with the cards stacked in favor of the defender.

[SinsI]

I agree that actual use of craft contingent spell is overstated, but I wouldn't worry about dispelling of all things. Due to the CL caps of dispel magic and its variants, dispelling generally favors the defender. You can do things to boost dispel checks, but casters are already likely to be boosting their CL because doing so has a myriad of uses. Boosting dispel checks doesn't provide any ancillary benefits, so it's a tougher choice to make in terms of your allocation of build resources, due to its narrow utility. Even if you do boost dispel checks, there are fewer ways to boost dispel checks than there are ways to boost CL, so it's an arms race with the cards stacked in favor of the defender.
Except increasing CL of contingent spell is very expensive, both in game time and money. That Contingent Revivify at CL 20 will take 6 days to craft!

And something like Chain Dispel can easily beat DCs in the 40s (since you add caster level twice, first limited to +10 and second to +25).

[HammeredWharf]

It's a good feat, but not the solution to everything. Not only because of the crafting cost and dispelling, but also because the wording of the conditions needs to be very well-made for the spells to trigger when needed and only when needed.

As for dispelling, if Im the DM and my party has optimized casters in it, it's safe to assume they'll fight some optimized dispellers. Those dispellers eat contingencies and persisted spells for breakfast.

[Kraken]

Except increasing CL of contingent spell is very expensive, both in game time and money. That Contingent Revivify at CL 20 will take 6 days to craft!

And something like Chain Dispel can easily beat DCs in the 40s (since you add caster level twice, first limited to +10 and second to +25).

Ah, but you have to consider the situations where the feat even sees consideration, namely, stupidly high levels of optimization. At the level of optimization where it sees use, wealth and time limitations are less likely to be an issue because if contingency shenanigans are okay, time and wealth manipulation might very well be on the table too.

[SinsI]

Ah, but you have to consider the situations where the feat even sees consideration, namely, stupidly high levels of optimization. At the level of optimization where it sees use, wealth and time limitations are less likely to be an issue because if contingency shenanigans are okay, time and wealth manipulation might very well be on the table too.
Please note this thread's title. Are there any such situations in real games, or is this feat actually a complete junk and trap, being less useful than some of the more situational feats that are considered very poor?

[Kraken]

Well yeah. People do play high op real games, you know. It takes very skilled DMs to keep up with them, though, so ones with any degree of consistency are of course rare.

[atemu1234]

Please note this thread's title. Are there any such situations in real games, or is this feat actually a complete junk and trap, being less useful than some of the more situational feats that are considered very poor?

Yes. It can be used very well; however, you seem to be assuming that the wizard is the only one in the party. Downtime assumes, as all Item Creation feats do, that the rest of the party can defend you while you craft.

[Emperor Tippy]

Step 1: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 2: Use your Wish (Su) ability to wish up a Craft Contingent spell of whatever specifications you desire.
Step 3: Profit.

Any Crafted Contingency is available for free with six to twelve seconds notice if you have access to 9th level spells.

There are plenty of other methods of negating or reducing all of the costs involved in their use to a greater or lesser extent.

As for usefulness in a real campaign, that depends entirely on the campaign and can vary from "utterly worthless and a waste of resources" to "vitally necessary and lacking them means that you loose before you even know that you are in a fight".

[Chronos]

...to "vitally necessary and lacking them means that you loose before you even know that you are in a fight".
I dunno, launching arrows before you even know you're in a fight sounds like it'd be a pretty good ability to have. Sort of an archer's answer to Celerity.

[SinsI]

Step 1: Shapechange into a Zodar.
Step 2: Use your Wish (Su) ability to wish up a Craft Contingent spell of whatever specifications you desire.
Step 3: Profit.

Any Crafted Contingency is available for free with six to twelve seconds notice if you have access to 9th level spells.

There are plenty of other methods of negating or reducing all of the costs involved in their use to a greater or lesser extent.

As for usefulness in a real campaign, that depends entirely on the campaign and can vary from "utterly worthless and a waste of resources" to "vitally necessary and lacking them means that you loose before you even know that you are in a fight".
Does this cheat actually require said feat?

And this thread is about real campaigns, not theoretical fantasy lands with infinite Free Wishes.

[Flickerdart]

Wouldn't in a normal play there be a bit more than 2 threats per month?
That really depends on the campaign. If you are a bunch of guys spelunking in Super-Hell, then probably. But in situations where you are primarily reacting to attacks by villains, you're probably going to have quite a bit of downtime while Captain Evil and his henchmen lick their wounds after their last defeat and prepare for their next scheme.

[Exegesis]

Even in a fast-paced game, a wizard is likely to have lots of free time—how long are those fights taking you? But what's true is that a wizard is likely to resent spending many hours on a one-use minor advantage, when that's coming directly out of their time for research, practice, invention, and other types of creation. 100+ hours is a lot of work, even for breaking the action economy.

[Dolour]

Which means 9th level spell like Time Stop would take half a month of downtime.
wait, isnt it restricted to 6th level or lower only?

[RolkFlameraven]

There is always the spell mantel feat from Lost Empires of Faerun, As the spells activated in the mantel aren't expended until their real 'contingent' is triggered IIRC it can make it far more worth it so long as you've the down time.

It can free up several defensive spells from having to be prepped as you just craft them once, set the contingent to something that will 'never' happen and go to town.

But I'm away from book and could be remembering all that wrong.

[SinsI]

wait, isnt it restricted to 6th level or lower only?

You are mixing it with Contingency spell. Feat has no such restriction.

[Tvtyrant]

I use craft reserves as a default, so it would be very powerful if I did not ban it. Without craft reserves it is powerful but takes some downtime (genesis crafting plane for the win).

[Segev]

The two biggest spells for a Contingency are Teleport and Celerity. Neither are 9th level.

Celerity, in particular, is a good one because all it takes is a standard action to cast a spell, which is all the wizard needs when he is caught so by surprise that he can't cast Celerity, himself.

If he IS able to cast 9th level spells, he won't need Contingent effects for more than that teleport, because under most circumstances he'll have Foresight up, which will make him unable to be caught flat-footed, and thus leaves him free to cast Greater Celerity, himself, in reaction to anything anybody else might do that he dislikes.

[Metahuman1]

As for crafting, can't a caster just plane shift to a plane were time moves much faster on a semi-regular basis to do the crafting? And cut the cost of the crafting with standard cost cutting stunts to reduce the total cost and similarly the time to craft?

[Zilzmaer]

Does this cheat actually require said feat?

And this thread is about real campaigns, not theoretical fantasy lands with infinite Free Wishes.

No, it doesn't. You're still using it, though.

And Tippy is notorious because "theoretical fantasy lands with infinite Free Wishes" is his campaign setting. See: resetting Wish traps.

[SinsI]

The two biggest spells for a Contingency are Teleport and Celerity. Neither are 9th level.

Celerity, in particular, is a good one because all it takes is a standard action to cast a spell, which is all the wizard needs when he is caught so by surprise that he can't cast Celerity, himself.

If he IS able to cast 9th level spells, he won't need Contingent effects for more than that teleport, because under most circumstances he'll have Foresight up, which will make him unable to be caught flat-footed, and thus leaves him free to cast Greater Celerity, himself, in reaction to anything anybody else might do that he dislikes.
Contingent Celerity takes 2.8 days to craft, Contingent Teleport 4.5 days minimum. And you are going to spend them in the first encounter? Or risk getting them Dispelled, waiting for the eventual fight with the BBEG?


As for crafting, can't a caster just plane shift to a plane where time moves much faster on a semi-regular basis to do the crafting? And cut the cost of the crafting with standard cost cutting stunts to reduce the total cost and similarly the time to craft? In a real campaign? If you allow your caster to plane shift to such a plane, why won't BBEG do the same? Since he is higher level than you, he will be able to get much better use out of it. He might even plane shift to the very same fast time plane your caster does and monitor it for intruders, so you'll have your fight with the BBEG that much earlier - and solo.

[Troacctid]

If you're a high-level PC relying on permanent dispellable buffs, be they contingencies, permanencied stuff, or whatever, you should take the precaution of investing in a Ring of Counterspells keyed to Dispel Magic and/or Greater Dispel Magic. It's only 4000 gp (6000 if you're adding the effect to a different ring) and it automatically stops one targeted dispelling per charge.

[SinsI]

If you're a high-level PC relying on permanent dispellable buffs, be they contingencies, permanencied stuff, or whatever, you should take the precaution of investing in a Ring of Counterspells keyed to Dispel Magic and/or Greater Dispel Magic. It's only 4000 gp (6000 if you're adding the effect to a different ring) and it automatically stops one targeted dispelling per charge.
Except there are like 30+ different spells and abilities that do Dispel, and conventional Dispel Magic (and even Greater Dispel Magic) is not even in the top 10 of the most dangerous ones.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, but those two are by far the most common, not close.

[With a box]

You don't need full 4 day downtime for craft an item that costs 4000gp.
8hours in a day is enough to create a day worth of progress, and you always can left an item mid-craft and go fight for a week and come back to keep making said item

(It's about craft feat in general, not only craft contingent item)

[Karl Aegis]

In a real campaign? If you allow your caster to plane shift to such a plane, why won't BBEG do the same? Since he is higher level than you, he will be able to get much better use out of it. He might even plane shift to the very same fast time plane your caster does and monitor it for intruders, so you'll have your fight with the BBEG that much earlier - and solo.

Real campaigns don't have opponents capable of monitoring and controlling multiple planes. To suggest something like that is ludicrous. More ludicrous than claiming any campaign can possibly be more real than an Emperor Tippy campaign. If I recall correctly, he does everything by the books. Rules as Written all the way, even the rules for abilities like the Soulknife's Knife to the Soul.

[SinsI]

Real campaigns don't have opponents capable of monitoring and controlling multiple planes. To suggest something like that is ludicrous. More ludicrous than claiming any campaign can possibly be more real than an Emperor Tippy campaign. If I recall correctly, he does everything by the books. Rules as Written all the way, even the rules for abilities like the Soulknife's Knife to the Soul. That was in-universe reasoning.

From the point of gameplay, if you allow the use of Fast Time Planes for crafting, it is the same as handwaving the essential restrictions built into the system to protect from abuse away. If your DM allows it, he should just remove the whole time requirement away - but the game you are going to play this way is not going to be RAW.

BTW, is there any way to make actual magical items with Contingent trigger? What would be a good price on a magic ring that gives its wearer a Contingent Celerity and takes a week to recharge after using it?

[Metahuman1]

In a real campaign? If you allow your caster to plane shift to such a plane, why won't BBEG do the same? Since he is higher level than you, he will be able to get much better use out of it. He might even plane shift to the very same fast time plane your caster does and monitor it for intruders, so you'll have your fight with the BBEG that much earlier - and solo.

But what's stopping you from first using a bit of divination (Or perhaps getting a cleric to do commune or similar to get a higher level effect for assured accuracy.) to make sure it's not a plane the BBEG bothers with first? Nothing.

And, no, from the point of Game Play, you are playing it rules as written. Just not rules as intended. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for a major company that can't say what they mean in the books.

[Karl Aegis]

Crafting times are not essential. They are dumb. We easily circumvent them because we don't want to deal with them. They add nothing to the game besides disallow characters without access to other planes from crafting their own gear. This essentially means mundanes that don't have adamantine weapons can't get adamantine weapons when they want them. It enforces caster supremacy in an area where you can expect mundanes to be useful. It's the cruelest form of irony.

[tyckspoon]

If you're a high-level PC relying on permanent dispellable buffs, be they contingencies, permanencied stuff, or whatever, you should take the precaution of investing in a Ring of Counterspells keyed to Dispel Magic and/or Greater Dispel Magic. It's only 4000 gp (6000 if you're adding the effect to a different ring) and it automatically stops one targeted dispelling per charge.

Should be Spellblades, actually. And a Ring of Spell Battle. Then not only are you immune to them, you can throw them back at somebody else! But probably not the caster who aimed them at you, because he's carrying the same defensive measures if he has any sense.

Re: Triggering Contingents early- IIRC the favored trigger for ones own Contingencies is actually something along the lines of 'when I say the word (insert something you will never say accidentally, and probably have made up for this specific purpose.)' Since talking is a free action, and unlike most free actions can specifically be done out of turn, the only thing you really have to worry about is being flatfooted (and when you get high enough level, enter continual Foresight/being Shapechanged into a Dire Tortoise to deal with that.) All of your Contingent effects can have a different keyword, so you'll just about always be able to select the correct effect for the situation.. of course, as mentioned, the correct effect is pretty much always Celerity anyways so you can go ahead and cast whatever spell is in your memorized loadout with your stolen initiative.